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Thread: More Hartley

  1. #71
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Now that I'm caught up with the project progress I thought I might share some detail on the steaming. I hoped that you caught the youtube video on the basics, I'll try to show you my methods of accomplishing the task. Not the correct way, but the way I did it based on the schedule, materials available and an untested process.

    To constrain the wood to the strap, and make sure it is locked in, I tied the wood to the strap and the outside block to the strap. The bolts were longer than anticipated, so I used the scrap pieces to bolt the outside block to the strap.

    You know, a lot can be said for bailing wire and duct tape.

    DSCF7024.jpg

    However, not in this situation. This didn't work at all. Definitely a symptom of "gotta get it dun". Went back to ground zero, got rid of shims, duct tape and bailing wire. Replaced with full block, bolts and c-clamps.

    The goal was to keep the outer fibers of the board in a bit of compression. So I improved the outboard block, C-clamped the wood to the strap in mid-span, and clamped both ends to the strap and began to tighten the bolt. This kept the wood together with the strap.


    DSCF7026.jpg

    Shouldn't show this photo, but it is the only one I have of the compression assembly, The DT & Bailing wire are gone. The wood was clamped to the strap in mid span and right by the outside block and the compression assembly to work. I really should take more photo's, but in the heat of the action...

    DSCF7050.jpg

    DSCF7053.jpg

    As always, really appreciate comments, observations, criticisms, recommendations and addresses of good restaurants.

    More later,

    Eric

    P.S. the chines where successfully bent and installed. This upcoming weekend will be the steaming/bending/epoxying of the outer portions of the chine.
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 03-24-2018 at 12:14 AM.
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  2. #72
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Well done keeping at it and figuring out what works. Reading your comments about spring back reminds me of my most recent steaming job, a pair of long curved carlins. My first attempt wasn't great due to spring back, so I tried again bending to a tighter radius than needed. When cooled and allowed to take their own position they lined up with the rest of the structure perfectly. Interested to see all your pics in this thread, thanks for taking the time to post them.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    Well done keeping at it and figuring out what works. Reading your comments about spring back reminds me of my most recent steaming job, a pair of long curved carlins. My first attempt wasn't great due to spring back, so I tried again bending to a tighter radius than needed. When cooled and allowed to take their own position they lined up with the rest of the structure perfectly. Interested to see all your pics in this thread, thanks for taking the time to post them.
    Thanks for the good idea Geoff, I actually came close to that on my first bend this weekend then modified the process. Second bend was better.

    Glad to hear that you are enjoying the photos, I really appreciate folks checking them out.

    So back to the build. When there are so many threads around here, showing first rate work from the get go, I know that I cannot add anything on that front. So I am hoping that by exposing some of my gaffs, other's can avoid them. I certainly don't intend to make light of craftsmanship. I wish I could show others how to do it, but not now. So maybe I can pay back what I've learned from others doing it right to showing folks that the process is not necessarily devoid of challenges that may induce some time in the groaning chair. I don't always mess thing up though.

    DSCF7055.jpg


    DSCF7056.jpg

    DSCF7057.jpg

    Steamed 2 boards and installed both this weekend. Yahoo! Trimming and sanding, then onto the centerboard!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  4. #74
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Well now... lets hold my horses for a minute or two before moving onto the centerboard.

    So on Sunday I epoxied the pieces that I steamed on Saturday, noticed a bit of staining, but then went out tonight to check things out. Here is what I found.

    DSCF7065.jpg

    Mold city.

    DSCF7067.jpg

    Ambient conditions, 51 - 65 degrees F, 50-60% Humidity, windy out of the west and this stuff grows faster than Elvis's Cadillac.

    This is mold, right? So now hit it with vinegar and water? or bleach/detergent/warm water? Looking for some help here about how to get rid of this!

    Anyone had problems with mold and steaming wood?

    Thanks in advance for all comments and suggestions!

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 03-27-2018 at 12:22 AM.
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  5. #75
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    WOW! I'll be watching responses on this with interest! I'm getting ready to steam some rubrails for my Mirror....I may dry bend them instead!

  6. #76
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Try diluted white vinegar on a small section.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    That's a weird problem, especially with the ambient conditions stated (not exactly tropical). Never faced such a problem, but I have fixed mildew growing on wine grapes using copper sulphate based fungicides. I wonder what would happen if you sprayed a fungicide meant for plants on the affected wood?

  8. #78
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    WOW! I'll be watching responses on this with interest! I'm getting ready to steam some rubrails for my Mirror....I may dry bend them instead!
    Hey Hugh,

    Don't switch out so quick. If you've got green CVG wood, and your concerned about breakage, steaming is a viable solution. But I'd try to prove the dry bend first.

    Fun stuff coming up.

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  9. #79
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Try diluted white vinegar on a small section.
    Greetings Gary,

    Yup.

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  10. #80
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    That's a weird problem, especially with the ambient conditions stated (not exactly tropical). Never faced such a problem, but I have fixed mildew growing on wine grapes using copper sulphate based fungicides. I wonder what would happen if you sprayed a fungicide meant for plants on the affected wood?
    Greetings Geoff,

    I'm not too sure, but after this evenings efforts on trying to get rid of this stuff, I would sure check it out.

    By the way, checked out your blog on Perigee. Fantastic! T

    hanks for sharing!

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  11. #81
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Thanks for the ideas and comments, all appreciated!

    So I started out with a 50/50 white vinegar and water spray. Left it an hour, re-sprayed and scrubbed. Nada. Or not a real visible reduction of material. Then read this and sprayed full strength:

    http://restorationmasterfinder.com/r...ch-vs-vinegar/

    Here is a "before" shot of the starboard side.

    DSCF7068.jpg

    And here is an "after" shot.

    DSCF7070.jpg

    There was some progress made, but the method from above link has you leaving another full strength coat on it and coming back later to chart your success. I'm thinking the answer will be a power sander and a clean respirator.

    Again, I'm not too sure, but contributing factors to the mold problem may be:

    1. Maybe the plastic tubing kept water on the wood when steaming?
    2. Mold rich environment?
    3. Mold in the boiling can?
    4. Left plastic tubing on wood too long?
    5. Bad Ju Ju from neighbors?

    Once again, all ideas/comments appreciated. Not too sure that this build will require any more steam, but I could certainly benefit from outside observations!

    But I am still going to pick up some plywood for the centerboard case and transom this weekend!

    More later,

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 03-27-2018 at 10:26 PM.
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  12. #82
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by FishoutaFlorida View Post
    Hey Hugh,

    Don't switch out so quick. If you've got green CVG wood, and your concerned about breakage, steaming is a viable solution. But I'd try to prove the dry bend first.

    Fun stuff coming up.

    Eric
    No worries, Eric. I'll probably have to dry bend them anyway, since there'll be 2 scarfs per length. It's mahogany and dry as a bone, though. I'm thinking of doing my scarfs and then letting them sit outside under my shed to "humidify" a little before I try bending them.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Regarding the centreboard case, you were probably going to do it anyway but fibreglass the inside of the case.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Of your multi guess options above, my vote is number 5, 'bad ju ju from the neighbours', the others don't seem likely causes. ( Btw, glad you liked my web site).

  15. #85
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    It's mahogany and dry as a bone, though. I'm thinking of doing my scarfs and then letting them sit outside under my shed to "humidify" a little before I try bending them.
    Thanks Hugh,

    You know when I was bending cedar pieces with a triangular cross section for the rail on a hollow wood surfboard, I'd soak the cedar (red) in a 10' length of pvc capped up and filled up with hot water. Let it soak for a couple of days and it would bend. No scarfs, but no mold either!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  16. #86
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Regarding the centreboard case, you were probably going to do it anyway but fibreglass the inside of the case.
    Thanks for the heads up Gary, I haven't taken the time to go over the next step, but it only makes sense!

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  17. #87
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    Of your multi guess options above, my vote is number 5, 'bad ju ju from the neighbours', the others don't seem likely causes. ( Btw, glad you liked my web site).
    Yes it's the only one that makes sense Geoff. But I'm ready for the next step.

    Your blog photo's are great, what an undertaking! I think of all my work and drama on this little dinghy and then see projects like that...

    Wow! Thanks for sharing.

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  18. #88
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Too kind, but really both our builds involve similar problems, skills, etc. Your build too is inspiring to those of us following your thread. Love seeing the shape you have begun to create. You must be getting some deep satisfaction from that.

    More importantly, you mentioned the next step... ?

  19. #89
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Eric if that moldy piece of timber was in my wood pile, I would scrap it now.
    You are fitting it to the chine, where you do not want any future rot.
    You are placing a suspect mold infected piece of timber between the inner chine and the plywood hull. And it will keep spreading through the timber.
    And the top of the chine will gather freshwater inside the hull to further you future rot problems.
    This not very good news for you.
    The mold was not caused by you, , most likely through faulty storage at the lumber yard or sawmill and no fungal protection applied.
    I love Hartley boats and the sail well. I built a 16.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    Too kind, but really both our builds involve similar problems, skills, etc. Your build too is inspiring to those of us following your thread. Love seeing the shape you have begun to create. You must be getting some deep satisfaction from that.

    More importantly, you mentioned the next step... ?
    Thanks Geoff,

    Oh yeah, definitely getting the personal satisfaction...But still lots of things to do yet!

    Speaking of yet, next step is the centerboard case.

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  21. #91
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Don MacLeod View Post
    Eric if that moldy piece of timber was in my wood pile, I would scrap it now.
    You are fitting it to the chine, where you do not want any future rot.
    You are placing a suspect mold infected piece of timber between the inner chine and the plywood hull. And it will keep spreading through the timber.
    And the top of the chine will gather freshwater inside the hull to further you future rot problems.
    This not very good news for you.
    The mold was not caused by you, , most likely through faulty storage at the lumber yard or sawmill and no fungal protection applied.
    I love Hartley boats and the sail well. I built a 16.
    Greetings Don!

    Thanks for your comments, I gotta believe that you are right about the lack of fungal protection...on top of the idea that CA is just full of moisture, mold, pollen and other deleterious materials. Oh well, live and learn.

    And you know, if this piece of wood was anywhere other than where it is, I wouldn't even burn it for fear of contaminating the atmosphere. But, before I scrap all that work, I'm going to do as I mentioned earlier. Hit it with a power sander and clean respirator. I hope/believe that the mold was limited to only superficial penetration before hitting it with multiple white vinegar doses and fungicides. Hope/believe that when I take that 1/32" off that I'll see nothing but clean wood. If not, then?

    Hope springs eternal, right?

    More later,

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 04-02-2018 at 11:08 PM.
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  22. #92
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Now that my story has caught up with my current situation, progress seems to slow down. For the most part, I can only get true progress done on the weekends. So my posts are going to slow down, but fear not, I'll still have a job to do for quite a while!

    So this weekend started out with a trip to my favorite big lumberyard that has everything and lots of it. But not this weekend. Looking for 2 sheets of 1/4" marine ply and I found 1 sheet of 1/4" AA exterior/marine. I brought it home so I could do something besides plugging screw holes! I also need to change my source of marine ply.

    DSCF7086.jpg

    So I laid out the dimensions onto the plywood.

    DSCF7076.jpg

    Then cut and epoxied both sides.

    DSCF7087.jpg

    Also cut and milled timber pieces for the structure. Waiting to trim them to size until I get more 1/4" ply and figure out dimensional change proposed by Geary in his blog on the Hartley 14. I think that I need to cut the pieces larger for this mod.

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  23. #93
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Aloha all,

    Not it Hawaii, but thought I'd send greetings from a nice spot to be!

    So I realized that I needed to circle back to my mold problem. Don's comments were on my mind as well as my proposed plan of action. I think that I am tremendously opposed to any plan B that would have me removing wood instead of adding it. I'll remind folks of past comments about being the son of the King of Rube Goldberg solutions. So instead of this weekend being more assembly on the centerboard case. I vowed to attack the mold!

    But life got in the way and my weekend with a power sander and clean respirator didn't really happen as planned. But I did construct 4 separate elements of a Kitty Kontainment System to our backyard in a seemingly worthless effort to keep our two - 1 year old feline destroyers on property. However I did find some time to attack the mold.

    Here is a shot showing partial completion.

    DSCF7090.jpg

    Same spot after sanding with 60 grit on a DA sander.

    DSCF7091.jpg

    I've made fun of my scarf joints in the past, but sometime even a blind squirrel gets...

    DSCF7092.jpg

    Overall shot, will need to come back.

    DSCF7094.jpg

    So I think that I've dodged a bullet here. Thanks for your comments Don, made me realize that I needed to completely address this mold issue. But with the short time of sanding that I've put in, I'm sure that I can get all of that minor shadow out of the wood. I was sweating plan B!

    Slower progress than hoped for, but,

    More later,

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 04-09-2018 at 12:14 AM.
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  24. #94
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    I was going to say that you would probably get rid of the mold when you bevel the chines. For your planking always cut oversize and then dry fit to check your shape.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I was going to say that you would probably get rid of the mold when you bevel the chines. For your planking always cut oversize and then dry fit to check your shape.
    I should go online more often.

    Being who that I am, I had to see firsthand what the mold damage would be. Never thinking that a good portion of that face is going away. So my DA Sander and a bit of effort showed me that all was cool. Further trimming of the chine for the ply will just reduce the possibilities. But I was really concerned about this infestation. Will always be wondering if I did enough.

    Next task is to finish the centerboard case and get it installed. Then install the stringers, fabricate and install the exterior plywood panels. Easy stuff, right?

    DSCF7096.jpg

    Once again, thanks for any and all comments/observations/and references.

    More later,

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 04-10-2018 at 12:32 AM.
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  26. #96
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Regarding the planking the hardest ones I had trouble fitting were the bottom bow panels. I really had to get inventive to get them to sit the compound curve.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  27. #97
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Regarding the planking the hardest ones I had trouble fitting were the bottom bow panels. I really had to get inventive to get them to sit the compound curve.
    You know, ever since I read this I've been looking at this task. Ouch!

    One thing at a time though Gary.

    And now I'm working on the centerboard case. I'd like to get that constructed and installed before I add the stringers. My thought is that the more wide open I keep the access to the centerboard area, the better I am while it is still upside down.

    Starting off I'll be making a mod used by Geary in his construction. Thanks G!

    CENTERCASE Mods.jpg

    I really think that this is great in several ways. But when cutting pieces to build, you've got to think ahead. Inner piece of 1/4" has different dimensions that the outer piece.

    DSCF7099.jpg

    Used epoxy to glue the two pieces together and then everything heavy I could find in reach to hold them together.

    DSCF7101.jpg

    In purchasing the plywood for the centerboard case, I was kind of disappointed. My go-to store only had 1 sheet of 1/4" AA Marine/Exterior when I needed two. Two weeks later, non in the entire companies inventory. Asked for $50 stocking charge. Bye bye.

    So I went to a local big box blue store and found 1/4" DF BC Exterior for half the price. Bought it an will use it as the inside piece. But need to get back on the road in search of marine ply for the transom and hull.

    Updates soon,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  28. #98
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Just wanted to finish up reports of this weekends progress. Needed to cut the logs for the bottom of the centerboard case.

    DSCF7105.jpg

    Quick cut with a small diameter circular saw and glue/screw from the inside.

    DSCF7111.jpg

    Also put a first coat of epoxy on the inside plywood to get ready for the fiberglass. 6 oz is what I'll be using.

    But that's it for the weekend. Next weekend? Cut spacers for centerboard case and put that together. Maybe buy some plywood for the transom if I can find it.

    By the way, if anyone out there has a comment/criticism/observation/thought, please feel free to toss it in. I can only learn so much by talking to myself, and I've got a lot to learn!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  29. #99
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Looking good. Glad you got that mould sorted out.

  30. #100
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Regarding clamping ply on compound curves, check out the ideas in #13 in this thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-mirror-dinghy Might help you out and good use of "what's-at-hand".

  31. #101
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    Looking good. Glad you got that mould sorted out.
    Me too Geoff! Small setbacks seem to have a large impact on my schedule.

    Time to forget the schedule, again.

    Thanks,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  32. #102
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    Regarding clamping ply on compound curves, check out the ideas in #13 in this thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-mirror-dinghy Might help you out and good use of "what's-at-hand".
    I've had my straps out thinking that I'd use them on the steaming. But this idea just might work on the planking.

    Thanks Hugh!

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  33. #103
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by FishoutaFlorida View Post
    I've had my straps out thinking that I'd use them on the steaming. But this idea just might work on the planking.

    Thanks Hugh!

    Eric
    You may not have too much trouble as you will be bending thinner ply than I had to. As you say, one job at a time.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  34. #104
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    You may not have too much trouble as you will be bending thinner ply than I had to. As you say, one job at a time.
    Thanks Gary, input like that really helps. Now I just have to find the hull ply. Any thoughts on the difference between certified marine ply and exterior ply for use in this application? I've accepted this material for the case, but am undecided about the hull planking. I've read that exterior can work on trailer sailors but believe that certified marine is the way to go for the hull. Thoughts?

    So the next job is to finish assembly of the centerboard case and install the puppy.

    Everything that I've read has expounded on the virtue of a plunge router with a jig to cut the keelson for the centerboard case installation. Working with sheet steel cutting routers in the past has given me a healthy respect for those beasts. Now I need to address past battles, wins and losses, to do the job right here. Don't have a router or plan of action so I'll go back to step by step. Build the case before you install it.

    DSCF7102.jpg

    Next task is to plane and trim more DF for spacers, place fiberglass on interior case ply, finish epoxy sealing on the rest of the assembly, drill the pivot hole (over drill, place epoxy, drill), and put it all together.

    Then I'll start thinking about how to install. Once again, Geary has done a great job in detailing his installation in his thread http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...hlight=hartley.

    Remember, observations, criticism's, theories and educational inputs are always welcomed and appreciated!

    More later,

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 04-17-2018 at 12:24 AM.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

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  35. #105
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    I'm not familiar with US plywood but here I have built small boats using exterior grade without any problems. The quality can really vary though.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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