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Thread: More Hartley

  1. #106
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    In my current build there is some exterior grade which I purchased maybe 15 or so years ago, and some recently purchased imported 'marine' ply. The old exterior is better than the 'marine' ply. I don't think 'marine' means anything these days. Whatever you use, make sure it is well sealed, preferably glassed too. Provided it can not get wet it should be pretty safe.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    In my current build there is some exterior grade which I purchased maybe 15 or so years ago, and some recently purchased imported 'marine' ply. The old exterior is better than the 'marine' ply. I don't think 'marine' means anything these days. Whatever you use, make sure it is well sealed, preferably glassed too. Provided it can not get wet it should be pretty safe.
    Thanks for your thoughts Geoff. Having spent $75 for an unremarkable pine marine/exterior sheet of 1/4" AA 4X8 ply at my "go to" megastore I found a similar size at a blue box store that was an exterior Douglas Fir and BC for $27. I had planned to search near and far for BS 1088 products. But after this I think I will stay with the DF exterior and save some dollars for the rest of the boat. And plan on sealing everything.

    Fins up!

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  3. #108
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Another weekend gone by, another step to completion.

    Finally onto the centerboard case construction. Sealing all and installing fiberglass on the inside of the case...cleats and spacers, yahoo! Here is the first coat of epoxy prior to glassing.

    DSCF7113.jpg

    Anchoring the glass while trimming. By the way, this is a 6 oz fabric.

    DSCF7118.jpg

    Determined to use up small fabric pieces on this, you can see the overlap here after the first epoxy over glass coat.


    DSCF7128.jpg

    Being graced with a SHWBO that allows this kind of nonsense to go on through 38 years of garage projects, I'm definitely able to provide a slip for her ride.

    DSCF7129.jpg

    I just had a 3-day weekend, highlighted with a Red Sox victory over the Halos. But I also got some work done and took some photo's.

    Breaking into this portion of construction I'm trying to pickup the speed by assembling everything and then moving on.

    I think I'm going to spend a lot of time sanding sooner or later.

    More soon,

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 04-24-2018 at 01:53 AM.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

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  4. #109
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings again,

    OK, sealing coat prior to glass. Here are the two sides, one sanded, one original.

    DSCF7133.jpg

    Both sides with second coat over the glass.

    DSCF7134.jpg

    Final surface treatment. 1 coat epoxy, 1 layer 6 oz glass, 2 layers epoxy

    DSCF7136.jpg

    Next task, cut the spacers and glue/screw the two sides together.

    More in a bit.

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 04-24-2018 at 02:01 AM.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

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  5. #110
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings,

    I was a bit concerned that some of the cleat attachment screws were not adequately recessed. But with the epoxy/glass it seems to be flush with everything else.

    DSCF7140.jpg

    Interesting problem here in connecting the two sides together. When I laid one side on the other with spacer in between and epoxy on both sides of the spacer, greased lightning!

    DSCF7162.jpg

    Nice break.

    DSCF7152.jpg

    So now I have a centerboard case. Next task, sand it down and install it!

    I certainly appreciate any and all observations/comments/redlines on this adventure. Please continue!

    More next week,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  6. #111
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    When gluing two pieces together and there is a risk of them sliding what I do is nail in some thin wire nails into the glue face and cut them very short. So just a tiny bit is proud, this locks into the other face and it will never move.
    Very nice mirror finish on the glassing by the way.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  7. #112
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Similar to Gary, I usually use screws or nails temporarily to prevent slipping, but get them out when the epoxy is partially cured (they are sometimes impossible to remove when fully cured). Later the holes get filled with some thickened epoxy. Of course this method is only good for work which is to be painted later.

    I see your use of weights... I have lots of those which have been very useful on my current build (although not the fancy Olympic type as yours appear to be). However, I have noticed that even if I load say 200kg of weights, old batteries, etc onto a glue job, this gives hardly any pressure compared to clamps... so I use clamps where a bit more pressure is needed.

  8. #113
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    A boat builder can never have too many clamps.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  9. #114
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    When gluing two pieces together and there is a risk of them sliding what I do is nail in some thin wire nails into the glue face and cut them very short. So just a tiny bit is proud, this locks into the other face and it will never move.
    Great idea Gary, will file for future use. It seems to me that I should have predicted this issue. But I ended up moving the spacers back into the right spot, blocked them with external weights, clamped them, and drove #8 X 1 1/4" Bronze screws.

    Thanks,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  10. #115
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    I see your use of weights... I have lots of those which have been very useful on my current build (although not the fancy Olympic type as yours appear to be). However, I have noticed that even if I load say 200kg of weights, old batteries, etc onto a glue job, this gives hardly any pressure compared to clamps... so I use clamps where a bit more pressure is needed.
    Yeah Geoff I learned the hard way. In the recent photos I was just using the weights to hold the fabric while I was trimming. But if you look back in the thread where I was gluing the two 1/4" plys together, I used weights, tools, and a heater to hold the pieces together.

    Big mistake.

    Photos not to be revealed will show a close to unacceptable bulge caused by lack of strong, uniform pressure while gluing. But the bulge is on the outside, one more learning experience.

    Thanks again,

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 04-25-2018 at 12:26 AM.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  11. #116
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    A boat builder can never have too many clamps.
    A philosophy worth repeating over and over.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  12. #117
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Not much going on this weekend. Sanded the centerboard case,

    DSCF7166.jpg

    modified the stock to make room for centerboard case,

    DSCF7167.jpg

    and fixed my wood rack.

    DSCF7168.jpg

    I did however re-read the construction article about Hartley Trailer Sailers and I'm glad I did. I missed alot! I have a lot of work to re-do my goofs, truly a learning session. I'm thinking that when I first read it, I had yet to start construction. Without the understanding of actually doing the construction, I think I missed or downplayed some stuff.

    I also can't believe that I took a photo of my lumber stack, muy importante! - Not!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  13. #118
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    I have both Hartley books, they got used a lot.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  14. #119
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I have both Hartley books, they got used a lot.
    Both Harley books? I have a pdf of an article titled "Hartley Trailer Sailers" - Plywood Yachts

    What are the book names? I'm certainly up for some more good reading!

    Thanks Gary!
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 04-29-2018 at 10:49 PM.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  15. #120
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Hartley’s Guide To Boat Building, A Boatbuilder Tells How.
    and the second book has lost its cover so I can’t tell you what it’s called but has a lot of detail on building the TS16.
    Both books are probably out of print unfortunately. If you were close by I’d loan them to you but sadly that is not the case.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  16. #121
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    The Hartley boats website can sell you the Manual.
    http://www.hartley-boats.com/books%202.html

  17. #122
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Hartleyís Guide To Boat Building, A Boatbuilder Tells How.
    and the second book has lost its cover so I canít tell you what itís called but has a lot of detail on building the TS16.
    Both books are probably out of print unfortunately. If you were close by Iíd loan them to you but sadly that is not the case.
    Appreciate the offer Gary, but will search your recommendations. Thanks!
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  18. #123
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Don MacLeod View Post
    The Hartley boats website can sell you the Manual.
    http://www.hartley-boats.com/books%202.html
    Thanks Don!

    Book ordered!
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  19. #124
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Another weekend in paradise.

    Last week I measured and marked up the keelson to cut the hole for the centerboard case. This slot is slightly wider than plans to account for the modification that Geary and others have used on the detail. I might have shown this before but it bears repeating.

    CENTERCASE Mods.jpg

    Just making the cut was making me sweat, so I remeasured this slot about a million times over the week. But I finally decided to do it today. First cut, drill 1/2" holes at the corners.

    DSCF7172.jpg

    Then cut the long sides with circular saw. Used a jig saw for the ends and finishing long cuts as a vertical cut. Still needed to use the file in some places and I haven't test fit it yet, but I'm feeling good about meeting my monster without obvious flaws.

    DSCF7175.jpg

    Closed the garage door and took my wonderful wife out for beach food and beers.

    A question for the folks who man know. Plans show a 5/8" bronze pivot pin for the centerboard, mounted in the case logs on either side (1 1/4"). I know that I need to over drill the hole, and fill with epoxy. But my question is Should I just drill out epoxy for the pin or should I install a bronze bushing in the epoxy? Honestly the bushing seems like overkill, but I don't have any idea about this one. Will I be removing the pin that much that I need to have a bushing? I'm planning on using either a closed slot or oversized hole in the centerboard instead of the open slot if that makes any difference.

    As always I appreciate any input on this build, whether on this question or anything else you might see or know, so THANKS in advance!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  20. #125
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    I would drill over size, backfill with thickened epoxy then drill for the pin...you could probably use a 316 stainless bolt in my opinion.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  21. #126
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    I used a stainless steel bolt, just bought online, of the appropriate thickness. I bedded the bolt in epoxy caps- so it's never coming out. My board has a slot cut in it, not a hole, so it's perfectly fine that the bolt is permanent in my case, as the board is lifted out.

    if your board has a hole rather than a slot, then perhaps consider a removable bolt. Either way, Stainless is the way to go. It's easy to buy variously sized bolts of the right dimension online and have them shipped.

  22. #127
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    I used a bit of 20mm stainless rod as a pivot pin (It was in my junk box) for my pathfinder, with an oversize epoxy filled hole in the cb, bored out to a slightly loose fit on the pin. My thinking was that as the board loaded up sideway, that pressure would be taken by the case rather than hole in the board, and also so the board could never bind on the pin and start twisting it. I know other people bronze bush the board, but I happen to not agree with this approach. YMMV .
    If the Hartley has a steel board, I could be persuaded that a bushing was the way to go, but I'd be looking at one of the engineering plastic bushings instead of bronze, to eliminate corrosion. Not nylon though, it absorbs water and swells
    The pin was cut to the same length as the case outside dimensions, and was capped at each end by a 2" disk of plywood held on by three screws. A rubber gasket (actually a piece of thin mouse pad) under the disks kept the water out. This never leaked a drop in the five years I had her, and taking the caps off and pushing the pin out, was a two minute job.
    The pin was a neat sliding fit in the holes in the case sides (drilled about 1/16th oversize, thickly epoxy coated, drilled correct size), and got clamped very firmly by the gaskets.

    Pete
    Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers!

  23. #128
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I would drill over size, backfill with thickened epoxy then drill for the pin...you could probably use a 316 stainless bolt in my opinion.
    Roger that Gary. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by asrainox View Post
    I used a stainless steel bolt, just bought online, of the appropriate thickness. I bedded the bolt in epoxy caps- so it's never coming out. My board has a slot cut in it, not a hole, so it's perfectly fine that the bolt is permanent in my case, as the board is lifted out.

    if your board has a hole rather than a slot, then perhaps consider a removable bolt. Either way, Stainless is the way to go. It's easy to buy variously sized bolts of the right dimension online and have them shipped.

    You know, the idea of using a hole rather than a slot was a concern about capsize training and the board staying in the right place. Any thoughts on this idea? Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    If the Hartley has a steel board, I could be persuaded that a bushing was the way to go, but I'd be looking at one of the engineering plastic bushings instead of bronze, to eliminate corrosion. Not nylon though, it absorbs water and swells
    The pin was cut to the same length as the case outside dimensions, and was capped at each end by a 2" disk of plywood held on by three screws. A rubber gasket (actually a piece of thin mouse pad) under the disks kept the water out. This never leaked a drop in the five years I had her, and taking the caps off and pushing the pin out, was a two minute job.
    The pin was a neat sliding fit in the holes in the case sides (drilled about 1/16th oversize, thickly epoxy coated, drilled correct size), and got clamped very firmly by the gaskets.

    Pete


    I think I've talked myself into stainless steel and out of a bushing, but it is a steel board. Just not sure it is needed. Especially if I go back to a slotted board. Thanks Pete.

    So question of the hour is slotted steel board or board with a hole? What did you use on your little Hartley Gary?

    Thanks again!

    More later,

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 05-08-2018 at 08:45 PM.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  24. #129
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by FishoutaFlorida View Post
    Roger that Gary. Thanks!



    You know, the idea of using a hole rather than a slot was a concern about capsize training and the board staying in the right place. Any thoughts on this idea? Thanks!



    I think I've talked myself into stainless steel and out of a bushing, but it is a steel board. Just not sure it is needed. Especially if I go back to a slotted board. Thanks Pete.

    So question of the hour is slotted steel board or board with a hole? What did you use on your little Hartley Gary?

    Thanks again!

    More later,

    Eric
    Mines a keel boat Eric.
    20150331_164225.jpg
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  25. #130
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Mines a keel boat Eric.
    And a good looking one at that! I thought that you had a Trailer Sailer 16 in your construction history. Memory is the first to go right?

    Well, the question still stands! Slotted or hole? Design calls for slot, but I read about concerns for the slotted board getting out of sorts in capsize trials. Thoughts?

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  26. #131
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Eric, when I built my 16, I used Iroko along the sides of the centreboard case.
    Drilled my pivot through them and used a stainless steel bolt as the pivot.
    You have a steel board with hole in it on a SS 316 bolt, you will get some wear but not in your lifetime....
    And I bedded the bolt with Sikaflex 291.
    I had a little bit of leaking but some more Sikaflex nd a quick tighten up with a spanner and it was okay.

  27. #132
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by FishoutaFlorida View Post
    And a good looking one at that! I thought that you had a Trailer Sailer 16 in your construction history. Memory is the first to go right?

    Well, the question still stands! Slotted or hole? Design calls for slot, but I read about concerns for the slotted board getting out of sorts in capsize trials. Thoughts?

    More later,

    Eric
    I nearly built a 16 but a comment from a friend got me thinking about a keel boat. I stuck with a Hartley design because the plans came with full size pattens...no lofting.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  28. #133
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    Default Re: More Hartley



    You know, the idea of using a hole rather than a slot was a concern about capsize training and the board staying in the right place. Any thoughts on this idea? Thanks!


    Eric
    Don't go upside down then.

    The main concern is yes, it slipping the pin when upside down and winding up going into, or through, your cabintop. You can get around that depending on how you build your case-top and the board itself. I can explain further what i did if you're inclined and want to know.

    These aren't really boats you wanna put upside down anyway, so try to avoid that.



    It should be said, that the hole and bushed removable pin is a superior option. I was given a board with a slot, so i used it.

  29. #134
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by asrainox View Post
    Don't go upside down then.

    The main concern is yes, it slipping the pin when upside down and winding up going into, or through, your cabintop. You can get around that depending on how you build your case-top and the board itself. I can explain further what i did if you're inclined and want to know.

    These aren't really boats you wanna put upside down anyway, so try to avoid that.



    It should be said, that the hole and bushed removable pin is a superior option. I was given a board with a slot, so i used it.
    Point well taken.

    I'll be sure to do the capsize training with someone else's training fleet!

    Thanks asrainox!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  30. #135
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    The Hartley 16 is a well established racing boat in NZ and Australia.
    Provide a fast boat with excellent class racing. http://www.sporty.co.nz/hartley16class/Home
    The Hartley 14 is also raced at some clubs.
    Class Rules require a hole in the centreboard and not a slot, as when pushed capsizes were not unknown.
    Removing the centreboard can be done out of the top of the centreboard case. Do not glue down the top cover of the centreboard.
    Screw it down with screws that can be accessed for opening in the future. If the surfaces are flat it will be water tight.
    See the photo on the Hartley 14 webpage - http://www.hartley-boats.com/14b.html
    Once you have made your centreboard and demonstrated it fits, get it hot dipped galvanized - sorts out the rust problem.

    On the Hartley 16 we built the cabin top opening to maximum size, you have your crew sitting in their to get their weight forward when running downwind.
    We do not use hatches on the racing Hartley 16. Made a canvas cover to clip on if you are overnighting or it is raining.
    Last edited by Don MacLeod; 05-10-2018 at 05:06 PM.

  31. #136
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Don MacLeod View Post
    Class Rules require a hole in the centreboard and not a slot, as when pushed capsizes were not unknown.
    Removing the centreboard can be done out of the top of the centreboard case. Do not glue down the top cover of the centreboard.
    Screw it down with screws that can be accessed for opening in the future. If the surfaces are flat it will be water tight.
    See the photo on the Hartley 14 webpage - http://www.hartley-boats.com/14b.html
    Once you have made your centreboard and demonstrated it fits, get it hot dipped galvanized - sorts out the rust problem.
    That is exactly what I was looking for Don! A million thanks for sharing this information!

    Amazing that I can find specific, detailed info like that! This is a fine crew to be associated with, hope I can help others in the same way sometime.

    Mas tarde,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  32. #137
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    I've probably got a catalogue of about 1000 photographs of our build when I built my 16 - which i built definitively as a cruiser not racer, so if there's anything that is a bit confusing, where an image might be better than a word, I may have a photo of it!

    Last edited by asrainox; 05-12-2018 at 04:15 AM.

  33. #138
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by asrainox View Post
    I've probably got a catalogue of about 1000 photographs of our build when I built my 16 - which i built definitively as a cruiser not racer, so if there's anything that is a bit confusing, where an image might be better than a word, I may have a photo of it!

    Thanks asrainox, I'll propbably take you up on that!

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  34. #139
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Spent last weekend in the sun up in the Willamette valley. Warmer there than down here. Got nothing done on the boat, but had a great time with family and friends.

    So this weekend I was back on the centerboard case. Drilling and filling for the pivot pin before I install the case in the boat. Decided to use hand drill with 1" auger bit.

    Getting set up for the drill.

    DSCF7176.jpg

    Ready to drill.

    DSCF7179.jpg

    Trying to keep it on the right track.

    DSCF7180.jpg

    I was almost as concerned about this task as I was cutting the keelson for the case...not loosing sleep mind you, but definitely thinking about the best way to succeed. Plan is for a 1" hole through both logs, then fill with thickened epoxy and drill 5/8" hole for stainless steel rod.

    Things went ok, but it took forever to drill through these two logs. The bit kept on getting bound in the hole, back it up and try again.

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  35. #140
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    On with the drill.

    I finally got to the point where the bit had just made it through the second log.

    DSCF7181.jpg

    So I flipped the case and used the pilot hole to go through the backside.

    DSCF7182.jpg

    Finally! I was going back and forth on a hand drill or drill press. Drill press couldn't have used the 18" bits so I would have to spring for some shorter bits, but I the hand drill was a real challenge, success was hard to get.

    Any thoughts on that?

    Uno mas!

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

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