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Thread: Caned seats

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Caned seats

    I was an Old Town dealer for a long time and sold a lot of boats with the square pattern cane seats without any real problems. The seat bar stock is a bit tedious to make though. You can cut the slots in the side pieces on a table saw. That's easy. You can also cut most of the slots in the crossbars on the table saw, but they don't go all the way to the ends of the crossbars. The grooves on these members when finished are actually C-shaped. At the ends of the caned area the grooves have to make a 90 degree turn and run off the bar to meet up with the grooves in the side members. I don't know what they used to give the sharp square corners (mortising bit? sharp chisel?). I used a Dremel when I had to work on them. Given the option, I think I would rather just make a clamp-on plywood template and run the router around inside of it to make the rounded corner style. In some ways, I also like the look of it better.

    As for the varnish choices, I think the darkening is more a matter of UV exposure than anything else. The varnish in my 1972 guide is the original from the factory (one coat 50/50 varnish and thinner, then two full strength coats was normal for OT). It has been scotchbrited a couple times over the years and a fresh coat added, but it really hasn't darkened much. I replaced the decks, the outwales, and the rear seat cane, but the rest is original. I got stuck one winter with no place inside to store it, so I sewed a big bag out of polytarp and left it outside on saw horses. Big mistake. Water went through the plastic, got in the bag and ruined the gunwales and deck tips. The rest of the time it has always been stored in the garage when not in use.


  2. #37
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    Todd do you have a close up of the rectangular seat cane? I tried zooming in on the picture but can't get large enough.
    The frames made, even used the mortise drill,. I did cut one more mortise by hand and realized real quick the sides were too thin so I recut the tenons to 3/8"


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    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  3. #38
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    Got the order mixed up on the photographs, I love the hold downs on the bench.

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  4. #39
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    Maine
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    Post Re: Caned seats

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    do you have a close up of the rectangular seat cane?
    The pictures below show the progression of Old Town's caned seats from hand caned to pressed cane with square and round corners.

    Benson



    Seat-137080.jpg Seat-102220.jpg Seat-336988.jpg

  5. #40
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    Thank you Benson! I think I like the square corners!

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  6. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Thank you Benson! I think I like the square corners!

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    https://youtu.be/rDbkIZo6uBM

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  7. #42
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    Nov 2016
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    Belmont, VT , USA
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    Default Re: Caned seats

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Orr View Post
    I made a rectangular frame, clamped it to the seat frame and zipped around inside it with the router. No effort, no mistakes - one of the few times I found it worth making a jig.

    Jamie
    I thought that was going to be tough as well but not really a B.D. I used a small Makita router with a base plate of only 3" and it was very easy clamping a straight (and in some cases) a curved stick to the open frame 1.5" away. I did go with the mitered corners on the glued in spline and found numerous open joints afterward. A bit of wood paste filler made them and some minor tear-outs go away

  8. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmq400 View Post
    I thought that was going to be tough as well but not really a B.D. I used a small Makita router with a base plate of only 3" and it was very easy clamping a straight (and in some cases) a curved stick to the open frame 1.5" away. I did go with the mitered corners on the glued in spline and found numerous open joints afterward. A bit of wood paste filler made them and some minor tear-outs go away
    I'm taking the slow approach on this just glued up the frames this morning. finally, I have a pattern that I think will make me happy and happy to use and happy for the router



    Oh in case anybody is wondering they're not as big as they look the cane area will be roughly 9 by 13
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 02-26-2018 at 12:16 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  9. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    I'm taking the slow approach on this just glued up the frames this morning. finally, I have a pattern that I think will make me happy and happy to use and happy for the router



    Oh in case anybody is wondering they're not as big as they look the cane area will be roughly 9 by 13
    I found the trim router is to light, the weight of the full size Porter-Cable made the difference! these 2 came out nice

    YES! It was nerve-racking!
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 02-26-2018 at 07:21 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  10. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    I found the trim router is to light, the weight of the full size Porter-Cable made the difference! these 2 came out nice

    YES! It was nerve-racking!
    Still nerve-wracking centering the seats drilling new and more holes in the rail but the seat frames are in place.

    The old holes I'm going to have about 6 of them to fill, plug or scarf a patch over???

    In my opinion nothing ruins the looks of a wooden canoe more than holes in the rails...


    Last edited by DeniseO30; 03-06-2018 at 04:52 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  11. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Still nerve-wracking centering the seats drilling new and more holes in the rail but the seat frames are in place.

    The old holes I'm going to have about 6 of them to fill, plug or scarf a patch over???

    In my opinion nothing ruins the looks of a wooden canoe more than holes in the rails...

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Updating two threads at a time while Ducker is stagnant...

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Caned seats

    Another way to generate that cane groove pattern is to use a post sticking up from your router table the distance from the interior edge you want to keep.

  13. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Updating two threads at a time while Ducker is stagnant...

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Ok Hugh, with ur router and ur mahogany...have at it! I'll be happy to cheer you on

    And the stern ...


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    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  14. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Ok Hugh, with ur router and ur mahogany...have at it! I'll be happy to cheer you on

    And the stern ...


    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Canoe seat spacer dowels .75 dia X 2"

    Small but important item x 8 lol.
    Drill the hole in the blank, turn the blank into a dowel.

    It seems to work better for me instead of making the dowel and drilling the hole. because, machinist I'm not. A lag bolt through a piece of scrap gave me a screw chuck to keep the skew away from metal chuck.
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 03-10-2018 at 08:59 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  15. #50
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    And
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  16. #51
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    Update!
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 03-20-2018 at 09:13 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Caned seats

    The mortise and tenon joints shown above are very nice. But at least in the past when Old Town caned its seats by hand, the seat rails were joined with dowels.

    Last summer I broke the front rail of the stern seat of our 1922 16' Old Town "Ideal" after giving a poling demonstration at the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association's annual assembly.

    sss 20170712-poling-46.jpg



    sss IMG_0003.JPG

    I cut the rail off and drilled out the old dowels, replacing them with new ones.

    sss IMG_0018.JPG

    Because the cane keeps tension on the seat joints, the joints will not separate (they hadn't in 95 years), and the dowels provide more than adequate strength otherwise. Dowels were certainly appropriate for the repair, and may be simpler if someone were building a new frame.

    Greg
    Attached Images Attached Images

  18. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nolan View Post
    The mortise and tenon joints shown above are very nice. But at least in the past when Old Town caned its seats by hand, the seat rails were joined with dowels.

    Last summer I broke the front rail of the stern seat of our 1922 16' Old Town "Ideal" after giving a poling demonstration at the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association's annual assembly.

    sss 20170712-poling-46.jpg



    sss IMG_0003.JPG

    I cut the rail off and drilled out the old dowels, replacing them with new ones.

    sss IMG_0018.JPG

    Because the cane keeps tension on the seat joints, the joints will not separate (they hadn't in 95 years), and the dowels provide more than adequate strength otherwise. Dowels were certainly appropriate for the repair, and may be simpler if someone were building a new frame.

    Greg
    thank you! And Nicely done Greg! nicely broke also I've used dowels in the past but they are my least favorite joints, the mortise and Tenon joints on the canoe seats, I make rather shallow as not to weaken the actual rail, not broke one yet.

    I love poling (& linng) but I only had one class on it many many years ago. But it gave me a first-hand appreciation on how Lewis and Clark may have done it. I've not been to Paul Smith's or any of the assembly Gatherings for many years.
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 03-21-2018 at 02:41 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Caned seats

    Here is my progress so far on the caned seats for my Cosine Wherry. I have assembled the frames for the seats. It was very helpful, and confirmed my thoughts to see Greg's post about breaking the seat on his almost 100 year old Old Town. He noted that the rails were attached with dowels and they provide more than adequate strength. I joined my frames using dowels. If I can get anywhere near 100 years out of them, my descendants will be thankful. The decision to use dowels only came after I had cut out my rails, and realized I had not left any material at the ends to cut out to make a tenon. Oops. I figured dowels would be good enough, and it is nice to have that opinion confirmed. I actually saw a YouTube video demonstrating that a doweled joint was stronger than a mortise and tenon joint. I don't really believe that, especially since if I recall correctly the video was produced by a company that makes doweling jigs.

    The designer of the Cosine Wherry calls for a seat support from the middle of the seat down to the keel. My first though was I was using >1" white oak and that should be sufficient to support my weight without that additional post. I thought better, though, and after seeing where Greg's seat broke, am glad I did. The problem with a seat support in the middle is that the caning uses up some real estate on the bottom of the seat frame where the canes pass through the frame. So, where I am going to attach the seat middle seat support, I drilled a groove in the top of the seat support that will allow room for the caning. The diagram is looking at the seat from the side of the boat:

    SeatSupportDiagram.jpg

    The problem with that is the width of the seat support completely covers one of the holes where the caning passes through the frame. I cannot cane the seat after the frame is attached to the support. I solved that problem by setting up the whole assembly to have the seat support attach with screws to the seat rails after the caning is complete The whole seat assembly will be removable, so if I decide I do not like the caned seats, it will be a simple matter to remove the caning and replace with something else. Before caning the seats, I will finish varnishing them.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  20. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomRose View Post
    Here is my progress so far on the caned seats for my Cosine Wherry. I have assembled the frames for the seats. It was very helpful, and confirmed my thoughts to see Greg's post about breaking the seat on his almost 100 year old Old Town. He noted that the rails were attached with dowels and they provide more than adequate strength. I joined my frames using dowels. If I can get anywhere near 100 years out of them, my descendants will be thankful. The decision to use dowels only came after I had cut out my rails, and realized I had not left any material at the ends to cut out to make a tenon. Oops. I figured dowels would be good enough, and it is nice to have that opinion confirmed. I actually saw a YouTube video demonstrating that a doweled joint was stronger than a mortise and tenon joint. I don't really believe that, especially since if I recall correctly the video was produced by a company that makes doweling jigs.

    The designer of the Cosine Wherry calls for a seat support from the middle of the seat down to the keel. My first though was I was using >1" white oak and that should be sufficient to support my weight without that additional post. I thought better, though, and after seeing where Greg's seat broke, am glad I did. The problem with a seat support in the middle is that the caning uses up some real estate on the bottom of the seat frame where the canes pass through the frame. So, where I am going to attach the seat middle seat support, I drilled a groove in the top of the seat support that will allow room for the caning. The diagram is looking at the seat from the side of the boat:

    SeatSupportDiagram.jpg

    The problem with that is the width of the seat support completely covers one of the holes where the caning passes through the frame. I cannot cane the seat after the frame is attached to the support. I solved that problem by setting up the whole assembly to have the seat support attach with screws to the seat rails after the caning is complete The whole seat assembly will be removable, so if I decide I do not like the caned seats, it will be a simple matter to remove the caning and replace with something else. Before caning the seats, I will finish varnishing them.
    Excellent work Thom! What's that rig you have holding the seat frames? looks like some kind of torture device LOL.

    You are going to be weaving cane until the cows come home!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Caned seats

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Excellent work Thom! What's that rig you have holding the seat frames? looks like some kind of torture device LOL.

    You are going to be weaving cane until the cows come home!
    Thank you for the compliment, Denise. However, compared to the work I see others around here doing, I have a long way to go before my work could even be described as well done, much less excellent.

    For the rig I just screwed together some 2x3's, then put in some eye hooks, and held everything up with rope. It holds things pretty stable, gives good access to all surfaces, has a minimal footprint, and I don't have to support the work anywhere that will be visible.

    I will report back on how long the cane weaving takes, but it looks reasonably quick and easy in the YouTube videos I have seen.

  22. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomRose View Post
    Thank you for the compliment, Denise. However, compared to the work I see others around here doing, I have a long way to go before my work could even be described as well done, much less excellent.

    For the rig I just screwed together some 2x3's, then put in some eye hooks, and held everything up with rope. It holds things pretty stable, gives good access to all surfaces, has a minimal footprint, and I don't have to support the work anywhere that will be visible.

    I will report back on how long the cane weaving takes, but it looks reasonably quick and easy in the YouTube videos I have seen.
    never compete with others that's what I say! On the amount you have to do Thom maybe do it in stages use lubricant like glycerin.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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