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Thread: Properties of wood

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Whiskey,
    The intended application is a primary consideration when chosing a wood species. Your list of charactistics would be applied after knowing the use.
    For one, structural framing in areas where moisture can collect and an epoxy seal might be compromised due to flexing fasteners, surface damage or any such worst case scenarios (centerboard casings, keel-strips, mast steps etc.)
    Another application would be strip or veneer laminated cockpit seats or similar panels where lots of flex could lead to cracks in a protective coating (e.g. epoxy).

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Natural durability of wood:
    A worldwide checklist of species

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...Z4dCknJlwFulNW
    Thanks, that is a nice reference.
    But it also highlights how contradictory some reports can be. Take Obeche for example, a nice lightweight wood that would make a more affordable replacement for Western Red Cedar. It is rated as very durable by one source and non-durable by another.
    Any thoughts on how well epoxy bonds to Black Locust?

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    My first concern would be to engineer any flexing components out of my boat.
    Last edited by navydog; 02-19-2018 at 01:09 PM.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeyfox View Post
    Any suggestions for wood species that have a combination of these properties:
    1 - excellent rot resistance
    2 - good strength (equal or better than Douglas Fir)
    3 - takes well to epoxy
    4 - is easy to work with

    I have tried to short-list a few species based on information from wood-database.com. Please comment or expand:
    Sapele
    Iroko
    Black/American Cherry
    Black Walnut
    Teak
    One of my favorite woods is Alaska Yellow Cedar. It is a member of the Cypress family and is highly resistant to rot! In addition it is easy to work and about equal in strength to Phillipine Mahogany, Meranti/Luan. It is consistant in grain as well. It is also epoxy friendly in is reasonably priced in comparison to other woods that are suitable for boat construction.
    Jay

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    One of my favorite woods is Alaska Yellow Cedar. It is a member of the Cypress family and is highly resistant to rot! In addition it is easy to work and about equal in strength to Phillipine Mahogany, Meranti/Luan. It is consistant in grain as well. It is also epoxy friendly in is reasonably priced in comparison to other woods that are suitable for boat construction.
    Jay
    Plus it's such a yummy buttery yellow color...




  6. #41
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Why does Port Orford Cedar not feature more prominently in boat building? Availability?
    It certainly ticks all the boxes on paper as far as mechanical properties go. Better strength-to-weight than spruce, just as stiff, great rot resistance.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    There is hardly any standing timber compared to DF and other more commercial species.
    Only about 1 million BF are cut each year in Oregon. A lot of mills can cut that amount of lumber in one day.
    Last edited by navydog; 02-19-2018 at 04:06 PM.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    The major bulk of old growth Port Orford Cedar was sold off to the Japanese for the purpose of rebuilding their Temples. I believe they have stock piled the rest. They prize it very highly and rightly so!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 02-19-2018 at 06:42 PM.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Just some anecdotal evidence, FWIW: I recently went looking for lumber to use for some laminated frames and had a choice between Alaska Yellow Cedar and Port Orford Cedar. The AYC was lovely stuff (see the photos I posted above). The POC was no better than box store whitewood. Good POC is available from specialty suppliers like Edensaw. I have a really nice piece of it right now that was left over from a planking repair that I had done last Fall. But I think the supply for it is hit-or-miss while I have been able to get good AYC pretty reliably.

  10. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeyfox View Post
    Why does Port Orford Cedar not feature more prominently in boat building? Availability?
    It certainly ticks all the boxes on paper as far as mechanical properties go. Better strength-to-weight than spruce, just as stiff, great rot resistance.
    I used it for the in-rails on my canoe which was the last one we built about 18 years ago.

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    One species that has caught my attention is Afzelia, aka Camfuta or Pod Mahogany. There seems to be less ambiguity about its durability than mahoganies of the Swietenia or Khaya families.
    It also has much higher strength, both in tension and compression, and stiffness. Despite it being heavier, it still has a better strength/weight and stiffness/weight ratios.

    Can anyone comment on how it glues with epoxy or its workability?

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  13. #48
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Apparently it glues well. The issue is availability and cost.

    http://www.plantsaw.co.za/timber/pod-mahogany.html

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeyfox View Post
    One species that has caught my attention is Afzelia, aka Camfuta or Pod Mahogany. There seems to be less ambiguity about its durability than mahoganies of the Swietenia or Khaya families.
    It also has much higher strength, both in tension and compression, and stiffness. Despite it being heavier, it still has a better strength/weight and stiffness/weight ratios.

    Can anyone comment on how it glues with epoxy or its workability?
    Where did you get the tables? It looks like you did some spreadsheet work.

    From wood-database.com/afzelia/:
    Workability: Generally considered somewhat difficult to work on account of its interlocked grain, causing tearout during machining operations. Afzelia also has a pronounced dulling effect on cutters. Gluing and finishing can be variable, and some species contain water-soluble yellow deposits in the pores which can pose challenges in staining or finishing with water-based products.
    And the catch:
    Sustainability: Afzelia is on the IUCN Red List. Depending on the species, it is listed as vulnerable to endangered due to a population reduction of at least 20% to 50% in the past three generations, caused by a decline in its natural range, and exploitation.

    I like the figure in this Wood database sample. Afzelia (Xylay Lace)
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  15. #50
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Not much mention in this thread of my all time favourite wood. Black Locust. I can't talk it up enough. I wish the locust beetle hadn't decimated them. It would be North America's number 1 timber crop I think. It does everything. Unless you want to build a light weight item, it's heavy.
    Strong, grows fast, coppices well, suckers like crazy, burns really hot, stronger than white oak, rot resistant as you can hope for in a wood, finishes to a nice golden colour, steams well, not all that expensive compared to teak and other exotic hardwoods, excellent wood to regenerate an area that's been harmed by fire, clearcutting etc. I can't think of anything this wood can't do. It is hard on your tools, grows a little gnarly sometimes, prone to invasion by the locust beetle and rots readily when standing but once cut it's pretty rot proof as far as wood goes. If you have a long straight piece, it's suitable for just about every part of a boat except large spars. I'd use it for a small dolphin striker. I wish I could get it to grow as well as it grows in more suitable regions. Ive got one I planted a few years ago and like anything else in NS, it takes a while to take root and start but I expect in the next few years, it will really start to take off.
    I buy it whenever I come across it, knowing I'll use a ton of it in my boat when I can finally get around to building her.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Locust is a great wood. The problem is the trees don't grow very straight or very tall. Additionally there aren't any forest or wood lots of Locust. They don't dominate other tree species.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Locust is a great wood. The problem is the trees don't grow very straight or very tall. Additionally there aren't any forest or wood lots of Locust. They don't dominate other tree species.
    Black locust can be selected for straighter growth. This has a lot of information, mostly pictures for 35 pages, but it has a lot of detail after that.
    https://www.asla.org/uploadedFiles/C...esentation.pdf
    EDIT: Black locust has been selected for straighter growth for use as lumber in Hungary.
    Capture.jpg
    Last edited by MN Dave; 02-23-2018 at 11:39 PM. Reason: no one wnats 1000 words
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  18. #53
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Where did you get the tables? It looks like you did some spreadsheet work.

    From wood-database.com/afzelia/:
    Workability: Generally considered somewhat difficult to work on account of its interlocked grain, causing tearout during machining operations. Afzelia also has a pronounced dulling effect on cutters. Gluing and finishing can be variable, and some species contain water-soluble yellow deposits in the pores which can pose challenges in staining or finishing with water-based products.
    And the catch:
    Sustainability: Afzelia is on the IUCN Red List. Depending on the species, it is listed as vulnerable to endangered due to a population reduction of at least 20% to 50% in the past three generations, caused by a decline in its natural range, and exploitation.
    Yes, spreadsheet. Data sourced primarily from wood-database.com.

    The problem with their description of gluing properties is that is is not very glue specific. It states that white oak also glues well, but articles like these (http://epoxyworks.com/index.php/epoxy-with-oak/) are in strong contradiction when it comes to epoxy gluing specifically. I hope someone on this forum can give a first-hand account of epoxy use on afzelia.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Locust is a great wood. The problem is the trees don't grow very straight or very tall. Additionally there aren't any forest or wood lots of Locust. They don't dominate other tree species.
    Larry Pardy found a wind break made of black locust and got it free for doing the removal. The wood was bent by the prevailing wind and so the lumber yard did not want it. Larry used it all for the natural grown frames in his Lyle Hess cutter, "Talliesen".
    Jay

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Black locust can be selected for straighter growth. This has a lot of information, mostly pictures for 35 pages, but it has a lot of detail after that.
    https://www.asla.org/uploadedFiles/C...esentation.pdf
    Any species can benefit by controlled management. Even though it is being used for landscaping, domestically it is still a small minor tree. Osage Orange is in the same boat.

    Like most trees it take 40 years to cultivate saw logs.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Most large commercial sawyers (Irving in this part of the country) have been around long enough for 40 year old plantations to become saw logs. It is in everyone's best interest. Problem is, they only see the corporation's best interest for the next 5-10 years.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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  22. #57
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Most the the mills on the east coast of the US buy logs from timber companies. Huge tracks of forest (hardwoods) are owned by utility companies. Reforestation is normally replanted with fast growing conifers. Hardwoods are left to nature to re-establish themselves. Generally speaking if someone plants a plot of trees for timbering, they are doing it for posterity or their grand children.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    They sure are. I plan to leave a bunch of trees. They may not go to my grandchildren but someone's going to have some good boat wood. I plan to take some boat wood in my lifetime and it's only fair I put some back, right?
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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  24. #59
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    I always wanted to grow a row of trees in a straight line spaced 24" apart. Then graft them together and force the trimed branches into shape forming the ribs, keel, stem and transom of a boat.
    Last edited by navydog; 02-22-2018 at 09:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    I always wanted to grow a row of trees in a straight line spaced 24" apart. Then graft them together and force the trimed branches into shape forming the ribs, keel, stem and transom of a boat.
    It has been done, but looks like a candidate for SOF. http://treeshapers.net/bentbranch-bo...-by-laird-funk
    Apparently this is called arborsculpture? Never heard of it before, but I figured Google should cough up at least one picture.

    https://www.permaculture.co.uk/artic...e-tree-shaping
    You might want to check out Gilroy Gardens https://www.gilroygardens.org/play/circus-trees
    Black locust might work. In a tropical setting, you could probably get a ficus (strangler fig) to form the framework using multiple roots from the same plant. Look up living bridges.
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  26. #61
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Oh I had the idea 35 years ago after reading an article about a gentleman who made grafting into an art form. I think Axel Erlandson who grew the trees used in the amusement park you linked to was probably the guy I read about, it was a news paper article.

    The picture you posted is ...well..that of a neophyte. Neither a boat builder, an arborist or an artist. That frame is not usefull for much more than a basket. My plans were for a 40' boat, it would take 20 years to grow the frames using the trunks. The time it would have required and control of a property made it enfeasible, I'm way past the time for doing that now.

    If I were to grow it I wouldn't use Locust it doesnt grow straight and smooth. The ash trees the guy in the picture used aren't well shaped either. Pin oak might work if it accepts grafting, doug fir would work, probably a number of others.
    Last edited by navydog; 02-23-2018 at 07:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    As usual wood supplies depends on location.
    Here in Europe black locust is in good supply right now and should be available everywhere on the continent. It mainly comes from Hungary where they developed cultivars that give 40-55% straight trees, but there are also other countries with good stocks. Genetics seems to play the bigger role in straight growth than location. The managed plantations are harvested at about 40-50 years with the trees having a diameter of 35-40cm (14-16 inches). Straight trunks with diameters over 40cm are hard to find. Clear board lengths up to 6m are no problem with the most common lenghts beeing 2m and 3m since most of the wood goes for decking and outdoor furniture.
    Worldwide black locust is in third place of managed plantations after eucalyptus and poplar. It is considered an invasive species and plantations are not to be set up wildly. Once it's there it will stay forever, very difficult tree to get rid of, and it changes it's surrounding ecology. But it is a good pioneering species for difficult soils since it takes nitrogen from the air and needs very little water.
    So it's good boatbuilding wood but for big boats you have to laminate. For natural grown shapes you have to go hunting at the loggers because it is good firewood and bent trees get sawn to short lenghts on the spot. Fasteners should be non ferrous, it likes to eat galvanized iron even faster than english oak.

    Another good european hardwood and oak substitute is sweet chestnut. Comes mainly from Turkey but sometimes locally available. Ash is plentyfull right now but it may well go the way of the elm, a fungus is killing it in numbers.
    The european softwoods of choice for planking are larch (both domestic and sibirian) wich is similar to Douglas Fir and interchangable with it (european douglas is usually poor) and the two pines, scots/norway/riga/baltic (pinus sylvestris) and aleppo (pinus halepensis). For spars we have norway spruce (picea abies) and silver fir (abies alba). If given a choice, fir is to be preferred.

    That's about it when it comes to commercially available european species. Basicly it boils down to black locust beeing the best and cheapest hardwood but limited by size, oak beeing expensive and sweet chestnut somewhere in between. For light and epoxy intensive builds ash and silver fir are first choice.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Rumars, thanks for your post, that is a very good synopsis.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeye View Post
    This is my Goto website for wood structural properties...

    https://tropix.cirad.fr/en/technical-sheets-available


    Seriously good
    This looks promising. And I'd never seen it before. Thanks!
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

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  30. #65
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Eric Meier is changing the http://www.wood-database.com/ home page from a grid list to a searchable properties based page.
    This page is set to be replaced soon! Check out the new Wood Finder page instead (and leave any pertinent feedback via the contact page).
    I really like the search and sort features, but on the whole prefer to start with the alphabetical list.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Another database for African wood. This one with a lot of background information on the plant, distribution, botany as well as wood properties.
    Example Khaya anthotheca
    Index http://uses.plantnet-project.org/en/Category:PROTA

    Edit: I should have linked the Timbers page" http://uses.plantnet-project.org/en/...imbers_(PROTA)
    Category:Timbers (PROTA)

    PROTA 7 (1), 2008. Plant resources of tropical Africa. vol. 7 (1). Timbers, volume 1. ed. by D. Louppe, A.A. Oteng-Amoako & M. Brink. Wageningen, PROTA Foundation - Backhuys - CTA. 785 p.
    PROTA 7 (2), 2012. Plant resources of tropical Africa. vol. 7 (2). Timbers, volume 2. ed. by R.H.M.J. Lemmens, D. Louppe, & A.A. Oteng-Amoako. Wageningen, PROTA Foundation - CTA. 804 p.
    Pages in category "Timbers (PROTA)"

    The following 500 pages are in this category, out of 1,201 total.
    (previous page) (next page)*

    Last edited by MN Dave; 03-06-2018 at 12:56 AM.
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  32. #67
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Greetings,

    Does wood swell when impregnated with linseed oil or other oils? How much?

    Thanks

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by Suksi View Post
    Greetings,

    Does wood swell when impregnated with linseed oil or other oils? How much?

    Thanks
    I think not. As in this is an educated guess. AFAIK, wood swells when water forms hydrogen bonds with the cellulose. Oil doesn't have the hydroxyl groups, so there are no hydrogen bonds, so it shouldn't cause swelling.
    With a little help from brother Google... This says the same thing, only with a lot more certainty: https://link.springer.com/article/10...086-016-1595-y
    When wood absorbs moisture from its surroundings, water molecules are inserted between and within the wood polymers (cellulose, hemicelluloses and lignin) forming hydrogen bonds, which causes the wood to swell.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 04-25-2018 at 11:48 PM.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Now that I think of it, all fatty acids contain hydroxyl groups and should be able to form hydrogen bonds with different polymers, although probably to a lesser extent as their molecular mass is much greater, resulting in fewer hydroxyl groups capable of bonding. On the other hand, fatty acids often have a quite irregular shape, which prohibits tight packing, dramatically increasing the volume occupied by each hydrogen-bonded fatty acid. I'll report on my findings when I get around to continuing my build.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Pressure treated wood, information reposted from another thread.

    There have been a number of pressure treatment chemicals used over the years, some of which are more toxic than others. In the beginning, there was creosote, then Gardner's process in 1875, then pentachlorophenol, and CCA and whatever the new AC2 stuff is.
    http://www.buellinspections.com/not-...created-equal/
    https://www.pca.state.mn.us/sites/de.../w-hhw4-75.pdf
    http://www.kopperspc.com/micropro/micropro-faq.html AC2 is MicroPro, whatever that is. Freshwater contact, but not saltwater.
    http://www.kopperspc.com/hi-bor/ Hawaiian termites
    https://www.midwestmanufacturing.com...ureTreated.pdf
    http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2015...treated-lumber
    http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2015...treated-lumber

    There are several grades of PT SYP. The local big box lists Cedartone AC2, AC2 above ground, AC2 ground contact and FG (Foundation Grade), which is CCA. Different grades have different amounts of preservative, among other things. It all comes wet as a soggy sponge and needs to dry out and warp like mad before the glue will stick. In any stack of PT SYP, you can find some good, bad and ugly boards. When I need a header, I look for a stiff, heavy piece with thick summer wood. Selecting enough good pieces to build a boat might be a challenge.

    Paul G.
    Timber can be preserved after construction by epoxy, zinc or copper napthenate, paint and most importantly by good construction practice and design details. Pressure treated can mean different things from LOSP to CCA etc, some can be glued easily and some cannot. Pressure treatment typically only works well on sapwood- not the best kind of dimensional timber you can use on a boat but it should be fine as many boats here have treated pine interior timber, but you would not want it getting wet.

    Nothing wrong with going down that path but in my view you are better to get top quality boatbuilding timber as its a much more pleasant to work with, adds resale value to the boat (trust me circumstances can change) and makes the remainder of the project far more rewarding.

    navydog
    Re: Pressure treated planking

    I don't believe that the various gradings of PT have anything to do with the quality of the lumber. The grading is based on the preservative used and the time spent in process , ie; in vacuum and under pressure.
    MoePorter
    Re: Pressure treated planking

    ah...the reason to use PT in the first place is it's permeated with poison! Tell me, the last time you planked a boat how much dust was generated & where did all the dust go? It would make the whole work area toxic.

    PT for work deck framing in New England lobster boats is fairly common & it has some limited uses in boat building but not where you'd have to sand & finish the stuff. Any extensive shaping & working PT would require levels of personal protection & dust control way beyond the budget & patience of small shops & home builders. Moe
    [QUOTE]willin woodworks
    Re: Pressure treated planking

    Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Not that I would use it, but I think PT Lumber formulations have changed and they're no longer as poisonous as everybody thinks they are, but I've been wrong about other things.. lmao it's a 40 foot plus boat so I hope whatever Scott uses it has some longevity to it![\Quote]
    Putting all issues with toxicity aside, the simple fact is that PT lumber tends to be crap; sapwood, fast growth pulpwood thats not really good enough to sell as premium stock. As has been noted, it is soppy wet and when it dries it warps, twists, cups, splits and is generaly a PIA to work with. Its not boat lumber, its just not.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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