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Thread: Properties of wood

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Whiskey,
    The intended application is a primary consideration when chosing a wood species. Your list of charactistics would be applied after knowing the use.
    For one, structural framing in areas where moisture can collect and an epoxy seal might be compromised due to flexing fasteners, surface damage or any such worst case scenarios (centerboard casings, keel-strips, mast steps etc.)
    Another application would be strip or veneer laminated cockpit seats or similar panels where lots of flex could lead to cracks in a protective coating (e.g. epoxy).

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Natural durability of wood:
    A worldwide checklist of species

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...Z4dCknJlwFulNW
    Thanks, that is a nice reference.
    But it also highlights how contradictory some reports can be. Take Obeche for example, a nice lightweight wood that would make a more affordable replacement for Western Red Cedar. It is rated as very durable by one source and non-durable by another.
    Any thoughts on how well epoxy bonds to Black Locust?

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    My first concern would be to engineer any flexing components out of my boat.
    Last edited by navydog; 02-19-2018 at 01:09 PM.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeyfox View Post
    Any suggestions for wood species that have a combination of these properties:
    1 - excellent rot resistance
    2 - good strength (equal or better than Douglas Fir)
    3 - takes well to epoxy
    4 - is easy to work with

    I have tried to short-list a few species based on information from wood-database.com. Please comment or expand:
    Sapele
    Iroko
    Black/American Cherry
    Black Walnut
    Teak
    One of my favorite woods is Alaska Yellow Cedar. It is a member of the Cypress family and is highly resistant to rot! In addition it is easy to work and about equal in strength to Phillipine Mahogany, Meranti/Luan. It is consistant in grain as well. It is also epoxy friendly in is reasonably priced in comparison to other woods that are suitable for boat construction.
    Jay

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    One of my favorite woods is Alaska Yellow Cedar. It is a member of the Cypress family and is highly resistant to rot! In addition it is easy to work and about equal in strength to Phillipine Mahogany, Meranti/Luan. It is consistant in grain as well. It is also epoxy friendly in is reasonably priced in comparison to other woods that are suitable for boat construction.
    Jay
    Plus it's such a yummy buttery yellow color...




  6. #41
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Why does Port Orford Cedar not feature more prominently in boat building? Availability?
    It certainly ticks all the boxes on paper as far as mechanical properties go. Better strength-to-weight than spruce, just as stiff, great rot resistance.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    There is hardly any standing timber compared to DF and other more commercial species.
    Only about 1 million BF are cut each year in Oregon. A lot of mills can cut that amount of lumber in one day.
    Last edited by navydog; 02-19-2018 at 04:06 PM.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    The major bulk of old growth Port Orford Cedar was sold off to the Japanese for the purpose of rebuilding their Temples. I believe they have stock piled the rest. They prize it very highly and rightly so!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 02-19-2018 at 06:42 PM.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Just some anecdotal evidence, FWIW: I recently went looking for lumber to use for some laminated frames and had a choice between Alaska Yellow Cedar and Port Orford Cedar. The AYC was lovely stuff (see the photos I posted above). The POC was no better than box store whitewood. Good POC is available from specialty suppliers like Edensaw. I have a really nice piece of it right now that was left over from a planking repair that I had done last Fall. But I think the supply for it is hit-or-miss while I have been able to get good AYC pretty reliably.

  10. #45
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeyfox View Post
    Why does Port Orford Cedar not feature more prominently in boat building? Availability?
    It certainly ticks all the boxes on paper as far as mechanical properties go. Better strength-to-weight than spruce, just as stiff, great rot resistance.
    I used it for the in-rails on my canoe which was the last one we built about 18 years ago.

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    One species that has caught my attention is Afzelia, aka Camfuta or Pod Mahogany. There seems to be less ambiguity about its durability than mahoganies of the Swietenia or Khaya families.
    It also has much higher strength, both in tension and compression, and stiffness. Despite it being heavier, it still has a better strength/weight and stiffness/weight ratios.

    Can anyone comment on how it glues with epoxy or its workability?

  12. #47
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  13. #48
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Apparently it glues well. The issue is availability and cost.

    http://www.plantsaw.co.za/timber/pod-mahogany.html

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeyfox View Post
    One species that has caught my attention is Afzelia, aka Camfuta or Pod Mahogany. There seems to be less ambiguity about its durability than mahoganies of the Swietenia or Khaya families.
    It also has much higher strength, both in tension and compression, and stiffness. Despite it being heavier, it still has a better strength/weight and stiffness/weight ratios.

    Can anyone comment on how it glues with epoxy or its workability?
    Where did you get the tables? It looks like you did some spreadsheet work.

    From wood-database.com/afzelia/:
    Workability: Generally considered somewhat difficult to work on account of its interlocked grain, causing tearout during machining operations. Afzelia also has a pronounced dulling effect on cutters. Gluing and finishing can be variable, and some species contain water-soluble yellow deposits in the pores which can pose challenges in staining or finishing with water-based products.
    And the catch:
    Sustainability: Afzelia is on the IUCN Red List. Depending on the species, it is listed as vulnerable to endangered due to a population reduction of at least 20% to 50% in the past three generations, caused by a decline in its natural range, and exploitation.

    I like the figure in this Wood database sample. Afzelia (Xylay Lace)
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Not much mention in this thread of my all time favourite wood. Black Locust. I can't talk it up enough. I wish the locust beetle hadn't decimated them. It would be North America's number 1 timber crop I think. It does everything. Unless you want to build a light weight item, it's heavy.
    Strong, grows fast, coppices well, suckers like crazy, burns really hot, stronger than white oak, rot resistant as you can hope for in a wood, finishes to a nice golden colour, steams well, not all that expensive compared to teak and other exotic hardwoods, excellent wood to regenerate an area that's been harmed by fire, clearcutting etc. I can't think of anything this wood can't do. It is hard on your tools, grows a little gnarly sometimes, prone to invasion by the locust beetle and rots readily when standing but once cut it's pretty rot proof as far as wood goes. If you have a long straight piece, it's suitable for just about every part of a boat except large spars. I'd use it for a small dolphin striker. I wish I could get it to grow as well as it grows in more suitable regions. Ive got one I planted a few years ago and like anything else in NS, it takes a while to take root and start but I expect in the next few years, it will really start to take off.
    I buy it whenever I come across it, knowing I'll use a ton of it in my boat when I can finally get around to building her.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Locust is a great wood. The problem is the trees don't grow very straight or very tall. Additionally there aren't any forest or wood lots of Locust. They don't dominate other tree species.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Locust is a great wood. The problem is the trees don't grow very straight or very tall. Additionally there aren't any forest or wood lots of Locust. They don't dominate other tree species.
    Black locust can be selected for straighter growth. This has a lot of information, mostly pictures for 35 pages, but it has a lot of detail after that.
    https://www.asla.org/uploadedFiles/C...esentation.pdf
    EDIT: They have been selected for lumber in Hungary.
    Capture.jpg
    Last edited by MN Dave; 02-22-2018 at 08:58 PM. Reason: no one wnats 1000 words
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Where did you get the tables? It looks like you did some spreadsheet work.

    From wood-database.com/afzelia/:
    Workability: Generally considered somewhat difficult to work on account of its interlocked grain, causing tearout during machining operations. Afzelia also has a pronounced dulling effect on cutters. Gluing and finishing can be variable, and some species contain water-soluble yellow deposits in the pores which can pose challenges in staining or finishing with water-based products.
    And the catch:
    Sustainability: Afzelia is on the IUCN Red List. Depending on the species, it is listed as vulnerable to endangered due to a population reduction of at least 20% to 50% in the past three generations, caused by a decline in its natural range, and exploitation.
    Yes, spreadsheet. Data sourced primarily from wood-database.com.

    The problem with their description of gluing properties is that is is not very glue specific. It states that white oak also glues well, but articles like these (http://epoxyworks.com/index.php/epoxy-with-oak/) are in strong contradiction when it comes to epoxy gluing specifically. I hope someone on this forum can give a first-hand account of epoxy use on afzelia.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Locust is a great wood. The problem is the trees don't grow very straight or very tall. Additionally there aren't any forest or wood lots of Locust. They don't dominate other tree species.
    Larry Pardy found a wind break made of black locust and got it free for doing the removal. The wood was bent by the prevailing wind and so the lumber yard did not want it. Larry used it all for the natural grown frames in his Lyle Hess cutter, "Talliesen".
    Jay

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Black locust can be selected for straighter growth. This has a lot of information, mostly pictures for 35 pages, but it has a lot of detail after that.
    https://www.asla.org/uploadedFiles/C...esentation.pdf
    Any species can benefit by controlled management. Even though it is being used for landscaping, domestically it is still a small minor tree. Osage Orange is in the same boat.

    Like most trees it take 40 years to cultivate saw logs.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Most large commercial sawyers (Irving in this part of the country) have been around long enough for 40 year old plantations to become saw logs. It is in everyone's best interest. Problem is, they only see the corporation's best interest for the next 5-10 years.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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  22. #57
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Most the the mills on the east coast of the US buy logs from timber companies. Huge tracks of forest (hardwoods) are owned by utility companies. Reforestation is normally replanted with fast growing conifers. Hardwoods are left to nature to re-establish themselves. Generally speaking if someone plants a plot of trees for timbering, they are doing it for posterity or their grand children.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    They sure are. I plan to leave a bunch of trees. They may not go to my grandchildren but someone's going to have some good boat wood. I plan to take some boat wood in my lifetime and it's only fair I put some back, right?
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    I always wanted to grow a row of trees in a straight line spaced 24" apart. Then graft them together and force the trimed branches into shape forming the ribs, keel, stem and transom of a boat.
    Last edited by navydog; 02-22-2018 at 09:56 PM.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Properties of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    I always wanted to grow a row of trees in a straight line spaced 24" apart. Then graft them together and force the trimed branches into shape forming the ribs, keel, stem and transom of a boat.
    It has been done, but looks like a candidate for SOF. http://treeshapers.net/bentbranch-bo...-by-laird-funk
    Apparently this is called arborsculpture? Never heard of it before, but I figured Google should cough up at least one picture.

    https://www.permaculture.co.uk/artic...e-tree-shaping
    You might want to check out Gilroy Gardens https://www.gilroygardens.org/play/circus-trees
    Black locust might work. In a tropical setting, you could probably get a ficus (strangler fig) to form the framework using multiple roots from the same plant. Look up living bridges.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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