Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    northport, ny
    Posts
    5

    Default Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    I had originally posted this in "the hull truth" and the first answer I got was a recommendation to post this this group. Apparently this groups expertise is recognized all over!
    In any case, I have attached photos of the floor in my Downeaster. I don't know how it was installed. It seems to me that the teak and holly is a veneer affixed to some hardwood but I can't be sure. This is a charter boat so it gets very wet inside, this the damage you see. Up until now I hid the defects with Soundown underlayment and a carpet on top. I found that all the weight the sundown added did little to quiet down engine noise EXCEPT for the turbo whine. In speaking with the sundown rep recently he suggested a simple D hazed gasket for the hatches would work fine on the whine and that covering the floor with 2lb tough mass barrier would help with the rumble. The Sundown guy suggested a simple D shaped gasket under the hatches to cut out the turbo whine. We'll get back to this later.
    The way the floor is coming up, it looks to me like the teak and holly is delaminating from whatever board it was affixed to. Now, I have a plan for repair that I would like to run by you folks for your opinion on what the advantages and pitfalls might be. As you can see most of the floor is comprised of hatches. While I love the teak and holly finish, I remain worried about its longevity in the face of water and both freezing and hot temps over time so I ma thinking of Lonseal as an eventual cover due to the fact that there are no seams into which water can flow.
    So my thoughts are as follows. Sand the entire floor flat with a commercial floor sander. This should remove all of the teak and holly veneer. (sawdust will be a concern!!!) Plane the underside 2x$'s of the hatches to make room for the D gasket so that when applied the hatches will remain level. Fill any gaps or gouges in the remaining wood flooring with filler. Then with epoxy adhesive add 1/4" layer of Sundown Tough Mass over the newly sanded and filled floor. This will help with extra shooting and sound (I hope). Finally, apply the Loseal or Plasteak (its the same product) to the floor. One concern is how to properly match the seam which will likely run down the center of the floor. I can get a heat welder and use a 4mm thread for the sealing but I have concerns about both looks and matching as well as my capability of doing it.
    So that's the story? Can I have your thoughts our alternative plans?

    Best regards
    Ray

    www.fishfreedom.com
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    3,046

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    Just get new T&H plywood But fix the under side support rot and decomposition. when plywood is covered, moisture will stay in it.. causing... well you have the results. I like the Lionseal type products.. no exp with them. True T&H will be a fortune.
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 02-11-2018 at 01:37 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,111

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    That can't be fixed by sanding it away, that's for certain. If you want it to look good there is no option except to pull it up and replace it.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    northport, ny
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    That can't be fixed by sanding it away, that's for certain. If you want it to look good there is no option except to pull it up and replace it.

    Now that may be a problem because I have no idea how my predecessor put it in. I suspect he epoxied it so I am not sure I can get the floor up. It looks to be 1/2" thick.
    Where can you get flooring like that? Is it more costly than
    Thisis going to be painful and expensive (and probably slippery) I need to get away from slippery

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    3,046

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nitecapt View Post
    Now that may be a problem because I have no idea how my predecessor put it in. I suspect he epoxied it so I am not sure I can get the floor up. It looks to be 1/2" thick.
    Where can you get flooring like that? Is it more costly than
    Thisis going to be painful and expensive (and probably slippery) I need to get away from slippery
    I don't mean to sound like a smart a** but I sense it may be outside your skill-set? which is okay.

    It's probably just glued down. Teak Holly veneer plywood is expensive but way way cheaper than solid Lumber. Depending where you are located of course.

    Engine noise is a different situation you may be able to get noise reduction insulation "in there" but without more photos we/i have no idea.

    It seems the hatch covers are quite large and relatively unscathed so you may might not be looking at that much square footage of t&h plywood anyway.

    My suggestion, is to Source your materials first, after doing as much investigating under deck that you can then come back armed with a knowledgeable and comfortable with tearing up somebody else's boat type of friend, Sawzall circular saw, measuring and marking, demolition tools, tools Etc.

    I'm sure there are lower-cost suppliers but Jamestown is the go-to for many of us no affiliation, just an example
    [URL]https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/mobileportal/show_product.do?pid=51940/URL]
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 02-11-2018 at 06:46 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,214

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    Welcome. Great first(ish) post! Hope you stick around.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    northport, ny
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    Thank you all for your input. It is not beyond my skill set (no offense taken) but it is a challenge. Probably the best but most slippery option is to remove the floor and put down new flooring and just try and keep it clean.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Vancouver Canada
    Posts
    285

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    Nitecapt,
    In the past couple of years I’ve replaced my exterior teak with teak, and the carpeting in the cabin with NuTeak. If I had the money I would have installed teak and holly in the interior but as you are discovering the cost of teak has risen astronomically in the past few years. I agree with Navy dog that your two best options are to rip it up and replace it...or live with it.
    Here are some of the plusses and minuses of NuTeak(I haven’t worked with Plasteak).
    —it’s non-slip
    —it’s relatively easy to install. The key is making sure everything aligns. I began by making sure the hatches were aligned and square. I then used a cheap laser to ensure everything ran parallel bow to stern. If the holly strips don’t line up the job will look half a**ed. Measure, measure and measure again. Begin with the hatches and work out.
    —you can cut the material with a very sharp blade. It’s much easier when warm...so I set a heat gun on low until the strips were pliable. This is most important when you reach outer edges and need to cut curves.
    —i used a tilers trowel to apply the glue. Keep a damp cloth nearby for the inevitable moments when the glue comes out of the tube way too fast.
    put plywood over the plastic teak when you finish and section and then lots of weight on the plywood.
    - there’s a good instructional video online. Google nu teak, video, Pierre van Eck.

    good luck,

    paul

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    3,046

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Puttputt View Post
    Nitecapt,
    In the past couple of years I’ve replaced my exterior teak with teak, and the carpeting in the cabin with NuTeak. If I had the money I would have installed teak and holly in the interior but as you are discovering the cost of teak has risen astronomically in the past few years. I agree with Navy dog that your two best options are to rip it up and replace it...or live with it.
    Here are some of the plusses and minuses of NuTeak(I haven’t worked with Plasteak).
    —it’s non-slip
    —it’s relatively easy to install. The key is making sure everything aligns. I began by making sure the hatches were aligned and square. I then used a cheap laser to ensure everything ran parallel bow to stern. If the holly strips don’t line up the job will look half a**ed. Measure, measure and measure again. Begin with the hatches and work out.
    —you can cut the material with a very sharp blade. It’s much easier when warm...so I set a heat gun on low until the strips were pliable. This is most important when you reach outer edges and need to cut curves.
    —i used a tilers trowel to apply the glue. Keep a damp cloth nearby for the inevitable moments when the glue comes out of the tube way too fast.
    put plywood over the plastic teak when you finish and section and then lots of weight on the plywood.
    - there’s a good instructional video online. Google nu teak, video, Pierre van Eck.

    good luck,

    paul
    True unfinished natural teak is also naturally skid resistant which is why it was used almost exclusively on boats for decks.

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    25,501

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    While it'd mean replacing everything, Ipe, Angelique & various other woods have similar properties to teak & are (roughly) 1/3 the cost.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,111

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    If doesn't require a high-end yacht look to it, I would just replace it with marine ply and paint it with a high grade waterproof finish. Maybe an epoxy paint they use on concrete floors. Concidering the current condition it would be a big upgrade.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    northport, ny
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    It’s a charter boat but looks do impress and any way. Something needs to be done about the floor.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,111

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    Most likely the sole extends under all the cabinets. You may not want to pull them all out to replace the sole which would mean cutting the sole around the cabinets flush with the edges. It may or may not be possible to properly support the cabinets and the sole with additional framing after it is cut.

    If you can saw along the edge of a holly strip on both sides of the boat the length of the sole you could remove the center section without disturbing the cabinets or the pattern of the sole.
    Last edited by navydog; 02-12-2018 at 02:00 PM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    11,758

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    Teak and Holly cabin soles, that were done by Herreshoff, consisted of a cross shaped holly strip that was rabeted into the sides of the planks to prevent mechanical separation of the two woods.
    Jay

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,111

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    Boats built during Herreshoff's time didn't have access to the high grade glue we do today. Not that it would be a bad idea now, however it would increase the milling and fabrication time considerably.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    3,046

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Teak and Holly cabin soles, that were done by Herreshoff, consisted of a cross shaped holly strip that was rabeted into the sides of the planks to prevent mechanical separation of the two woods.
    Jay
    Mahogany and maple walnut and maple also look very good oh and Cherry and Maple... But teak and Holly veneer plywood seems like the answer because the hatches already have it

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    15,468

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    If she charters like that, anything is going to be an improvement. I'd go with industrial floor epoxy.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Norwich,United Kingdom
    Posts
    5,647

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    This might appear to be heresy but there is a melamine sheet with that pattern and it will give several years of service with no need to varnish.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    northport, ny
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    Well folks there may be some good news. I was able to peel back some of the teak & holly laminate. It appears that the prior owner laid a 1/4" laminated teak & holly over a plywood floor fastened down by deck screws. Should be no problem pulling it up. Fixing any bad spots and replacing with the same flooring. Then to protect the and prevent slipping a light easy drying indoor outdoor carpet.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Norwalk CT
    Posts
    959

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    The toughest part is probably finding new teak and holly ply with the same spacing. Seems like it changes annually...even from the same distributors.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    East Quogue,NY
    Posts
    15,856

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    Well folks there may be some good news. I was able to peel back some of the teak & holly laminate. It appears that the prior owner laid a 1/4" laminated teak & holly over a plywood floor fastened down by deck screws. Should be no problem pulling it up. Fixing any bad spots and replacing with the same flooring. Then to protect the and prevent slipping a light easy drying indoor outdoor carpet.

    Glad to hear it.

    Do you know about Robert's plywood, in Deer Park? I have no connection to them, other than that they sell a lot of marine ply and I have had good service from them.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    11,758

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Boats built during Herreshoff's time didn't have access to the high grade glue we do today. Not that it would be a bad idea now, however it would increase the milling and fabrication time considerably.
    Next time you see delaminated ply wood, think of what I just said! It, most often, the wood and not the glue that fails. If you take a loupe and inspect a plywood veneer that has delaminated, most often, you will see a fine layer of wood attached to the glue line.
    Jay

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,111

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    Jay,
    I don't see much of a connection between solid teak and holly splined together and plywood. Other than they are both wood products their characteristics are entirely different.

    I'm not convinced that t&g fabrications from the past would have a substantially longer service life than epoxy edge glued laminations.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    11,758

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    It is the constant expansion and contraction of the wood against a hard glue line that eventually will cause the material to fail by tearing the wood apart from itself, leaving a fine glue line on one surface. Normally this is the softer of the two materials. The cross joinery of teak to holly is merely an added form of insurance against this phenominum. in truth, this is a form of mortis and tenon joinery rather than a glued and unsupported butt joint.
    Jay

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,111

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    Hey,
    There isn't any question that the mortised joints are better but by how much. The issue is the added time it takes to receive a unmeasurable benefit. In addition there is increased risk when thin strips need to be machined. Personally I don't like to run that type of stock through my shaper or table saw even with hold downs and feather boards.
    Last edited by navydog; 02-16-2018 at 03:07 PM.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    11,758

    Default Re: Need Help with replacing teak and Holly floor...long post...get a cup of coffee!

    You are free to make your own choice as to how you would do the job. I have merely brought attention as to how it has been successfully done in the past. Herreshoff made his cross shaped holly insert tenons the full vertical depth of the planking. The Swiss cross holly tennon was centered in the middle and the width matched the depth of the insert. The boat was over fifty years old when I worked on it and there were no separation gaps between the planking and the holly in its cabin sole. The boat was "Tioga".
    Jay

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •