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Thread: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

  1. #36
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    The lombardini is self priming ....you just crank away. I dont dislike the motor but with varying fuel quality I think simpler system is an advantage.
    They chew out their little exhaust elbow pretty quickly, which stranded us one year. You need a spare on board. Because of their relative complexity service costs are astonishingly expensive, but thats just my experience, maybe they saw me coming.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    The lombardini is self priming ....you just crank away. I dont dislike the motor but with varying fuel quality I think simpler system is an advantage.
    They chew out their little exhaust elbow pretty quickly, which stranded us one year. You need a spare on board. Because of their relative complexity service costs are astonishingly expensive, but thats just my experience, maybe they saw me coming.
    Yes John , I have done that too , just cranked away.
    But I've also primed it manually.
    I take your point though , with varying fuel quality , sailing around the islands , the different fuel systems may be an issue.
    And also accessibility to the engine may be a point too , if its only really viewed when something goes wrong.
    Regards Rob J.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    The Lombardini has unit injectors, meaning the high pressure fuel pump is integrated into the injector, that's why it's self priming. It has a low pressure fuel pump that must be hand stroked. Just cranking away works but is bad practice.
    I think the service costs are related to what access you have to the motor. Every 500 hours the valve clearance must be checked and reset. Every 1000 hours the injectors must be cleaned, tested and maybe reset. They don't require a special tool to come out. They do require some special tools for testing and a special die to insure proper spacing when they go back in (otherwise they don't align properly with the fuel lines), plus the copper washers, O-rings, and a gasket. If you have no access to the top of the motor it's bad. Every 2500 (they promised 4000 hours for the future) the timing belt must be changed. They do have videos where you can see all that. Just imagine beeing it done in your boat. https://iservice.lombardini.it/jsp/T...ct&parent=1297
    It is not a tree shade mechanics engine. It was developed in the first world for the first world.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Thanks Rumars.
    Regards Rob J.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    What mfr. does not require various special tools? Maybe 60's vintage Lister? I'm not trying to be snarky at all - my last Kubota tractor had 20+ special tools listed in the service manual.
    I pulled a Kubota twin after a hydraulic lock. Stripping it required no special tools and was very simple. Only had 20 hrs and changing a rod sorted it. The simplicity of them, along with the durability would make it my choice for an auxilary. Possibly use a bit more fuel, but not an issue on a sailing boat.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    The Faryman (K-30?) in my ketch has been trouble-free for 20 years now. Always starts if the fuel is clean. Never had an injector out yet. It's low-rpm and doesn't burn much fuel.

    There is a dealer in Florida, so that's not very convenient, but do-able.

    My only problems on it have been accessories: starter, alternator, water-pump. And keeping the fuel clean. Other than that, I just change the oil, and run pink anti-freeze through it before freeze-up.

    Dave

  7. #42
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    What Rumars said. The reason a 702 is lighter than a Beta is due to more alloy being used. Zinc changes and servicing are critical to keep the engines going. I have found several for sale with less than 1000 hours on, why? Apparently a major service is needed at 700 hours, involving costly replacements. I dont even have a cam belt in my car, i would not choose to have one on a boat, and im not 100% convinced on unit injectors just yet. Spec wise, its a promising engine, but i would personally take the Beta or a small Perkins.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    The LDW 702 M is not lighter than the Beta 16 (BZ602). It's quite the opposite, the LDW 702 is 4kg heavier than the Beta 16, according to official published weights with the same TMC 40 gearbox.
    The LDW 702 M is not to be confused with it's smaller brother the 502M wich weighs in at 82kg complete with the same gearbox. That is a complete aluminium engine, the 702M a cast iron body with alu head.

    As for how to rate them that is anybodys own opinion. Beta has its valve clearance check to 800 hours. Lombardini has it at 500 hours. The other normal service intervals are similar and should be performed yearly anyhow on a lightly used sailboat engine.
    If the 1000 hours injector check and 2500 (or 4000) hours belt replacement are a dealbreaker then so be it. But it's a individual choice not the engines.

    Most small sailboat diesels die from beeing on sailboats anyhow. Most marina kept sailboats should really have a small gasoline engine, but no modern ones are offered. I would love to have a 300cc E-TEC engine, or similar small fuel injected two or even four stroke.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    ^ I have a nice 7hp Vire 2-stroke if your interested....

    Your correct, i was comparing my notes on the 702 18hp, against the Beta 20hp, though there is only 5kg difference, though it does have an extra cylinder.

    All my previous diesels have been of the slow speed type and hand crank-able, though i did have an electric start on the last Bukh. The savings in weight with a modern engine can allow an extra 100l of diesel to be carried, or less trailer weight to tow around.....it all adds up. I look forward to seeing how Ians pair perform over the long term.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    When I replaced the very heavy Yanmar YSE12 (10hp) with the more powerful and smoother Lombardini 502M , the other benefits were the much more compact size , and substantially lower weight.
    Turned over to a VG boatbuilder , he made the boat much easier to use , and more responsive and balanced.
    And it was very economical too.
    I wouldn't , won't , have petrol on a boat .
    Regards Rob J.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    On our pacific cruise last year we were with a catamaran with twin petrol outboards, he carried 500 litres of it. He's a commercial operator and knows what he's doing , hasn't had an issue for the last decade or so.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Thanks but for the weight of the Vire I can put an outboard powerhead in and have double the power and worldwide service.

    I was just pointing out that at the expected runtimes typical small sailboat diesel see before major work, it's pointless to argue about unit injectors or timing belts.

    I get why people want diesels, but most sailboats up to 30' would profit from a small injected gasoline engine. Injected engines are as safe as diesels, and most boats have gasoline on board anyway. But as I said there is nothing on the market.
    Last edited by Rumars; 02-11-2018 at 04:19 PM.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    In my time in the CG John , we dealt with lots of petrol engine problems.
    But the worst is fire , on a boat.
    That is enough for me , not to want petrol on a boat.
    In fact , the CG wouldn't allow petrol on their boat at all.
    When we put a fire pump on it , it had to be diesel powered.
    We had a fire on a Marina too , I got photos of it.
    A commercial operator was close handy when it was just starting , and had the opportunity and equipment to put the fire out.
    But chose his charter instead , and left the boat to burn.
    Regards Rob J.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    We had a Vire in our 23' Spitzgatter. It was forever eating up its internal Zn insert and had an annoying high pitch drone of a running sound that drove us nuts! The Vire is not nearly powerful enough for the H28 we have now. We do not always have wind in our area and a strong enough engine to go 25 miles against a foul current is a must!
    Jay

  15. #50
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Mr. Greer may I suggest you measure exactly how much space you have to fit the motor, maybe you can squeeze in one of the three cylinders in there. The additional weight of the beta 20 over the beta 16 is 20lb. Nanni, Westerbecke and others offer the same Kubota engine (D722-E4B) in different colours, and it has 20HP.

    You can also inquire about a rebuild of your M20, as far as I know it is also a Kubota base engine.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    We had a Vire in our 23' Spitzgatter. It was forever eating up its internal Zn insert and had an annoying high pitch drone of a running sound that drove us nuts! The Vire is not nearly powerful enough for the H28 we have now. We do not always have wind in our area and a strong enough engine to go 25 miles against a foul current is a must!
    Jay
    Our Vire doesn’t even have internal zincs. It has sacrificial zinc freeze plugs. It’s the 12HP version and has more power than we need on our 24’ full keel sloop.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    It’s been my experience, taking care of yachts(and their owners), that most auxiliary inboards do not fail from inherent bad engineering, but rather are murdered by their owners. By that I mean that the basic diesel block is usually not the problem, but the marine components, ie, the salt water pump, the heat exchanger, the mixing elbow are usually what fails, and that the owner has failed to keep up with the maintenance schedules. Too say nothing of the way more common problems of fuel supply/filters, or impeller issues in typical marine engine failures.
    Any diesel placed into a marine enviroment, is at once in a far more hostile place than it would be as a heavy equipment engine, or a transportation environment would ever ask of it. For example, the Yanmar U-shaped, cast iron mixer elbow has a predicted lifespan of 5 years. It was amazing to ask owners when they last replaced this part after owning the boat for 10-20 years. Usually the water injection Port was clogged, or the larger exhaust path was greatly restricted cause it was a CAST IRON PART.
    The point is, the underlying Diesel engines are usually fantastically well engineered...the marinized after market parts maybe, maybe not so much.
    If the cubic inches of engine room, the required horsepower and torque fit the space available, then spending a little time on the reputation of the engine and parts and Service availability will give you a safe choice of engine.
    Since most yachts average about 50 hours a year, most owners will not outlive the predicted lifespan of a given diesel block.
    It is way, way, way more important how the engine is used(or abused), then the paint color of the unit.
    As Mark Twain famously said, “You can put all your eggs in one basket...just watch that basket!”. So study that maintenance schedule.

    Oh, and since we are talking about a sailboat-auxiliary-engine, there is another form of propulsion should the engine fail, I know Jay can maneuver under sail, but many owners expect 100% from their inboards, and fail to even remember that they have an anchor available in an emergency to perhaps save their craft.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Well written Paul.
    I was on my GS on a swing mooring , watching a bloke trying to single hand a boat I very much admired.
    He had sailed in to a small harbour with too much up , and then it all got too much for him , so he dropped the pick , to everyones relief , and set the boat right.
    He must have had hundreds of pairs of eyes on him.
    Boat sorted , he went to try and get the pick up , and couldn't.
    Eventually a couple of blokes went over and gave him a hand.
    Very embarrassing.
    Rob J.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Does anyone have first had experience with Lombardini's to the extent that you are familiar with metals used for Electrical and Plumbing connections? I had a miserable experience with a brand new Westerbeke/Universal Diesel in 2008. The engine was a Kubota and ran like the champ it was.. but all the non salt water resistant components they used to marinize it were down right irresponsible.

    Tin plated steel connectors! Aluminum touching brass for pressure and temperature sensors on the salt water loop!.. Terrible.

    THOSE are the details in my view that make a quality solution.. the Engines really are the least of your worries...

  20. #55
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Brian , I had one of the top boatbuilders , who normally builds fishing boats , and has done for many years put the Lombardini in.
    I got the best electrician I could , a man used by the local fishing fleet , and it was all overseen by the company that sold me the engine.
    There was never any issue with electrics or plumbing , that wasn't my fault.
    I neglected to turn the salt water cock on once , and cooked an impeller , but I had a spare on board , and the change over was easy.
    It will be interesting to hear the experiences of other owners.
    Regards Rob J.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Jay,
    I know nothing about the Lombardini other that hearing about them over the years so it makes me lean toward Beta. I've had very good communication with the Beta folks (Stanley) in SC. They are no longer the "new guy" on the block and you hear very little complaints.

    Off topic a bit but I had a 10 yr old H28 with several cracked ribs (white oak) in the engine compartment at that young age. It had no engine or engine bearers and I figured the cracks were due to poor workmanship and the sharp turn. It still remained tight though out a yr cruise in the Caribbean in some less than perfect conditions.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Don't want your engine to crap out due to corrosion in the cooling water loop? Install a heat exchanger and keep the cooling system a closed-loop system filled with ethyl glycol. What? You don't want to spend the money, need the space for more beer, and raw water is how it's always been done? Ya picks your battles and accepts losing one once in a while...
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Don't want your engine to crap out due to corrosion in the cooling water loop? Install a heat exchanger and keep the cooling system a closed-loop system filled with ethyl glycol. What? You don't want to spend the money, need the space for more beer, and raw water is how it's always been done? Ya picks your battles and accepts losing one once in a while...
    .
    Yes , I thought that would have been a "no brainer"!.
    Regards Rob J.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    The Lombradini engines are supplied with a heat exchanger that is to be filled with the non corrosive coolant the factory reccommends.
    Jay

  25. #60
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    The Lombradini engines are supplied with a heat exchanger that is to be filled with the non corrosive coolant the factory reccommends.
    Jay
    So - it's closed loop. That's a good thing. Aren't the Kubota engine options all closed as well?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  26. #61
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    IMHO, they should ALL be closed loop systems, but what do I know?
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    All the modern ones are , shirley. I mean you'd have to go out of your way to specify a fully raw /and or dry exhaust system nowadays in the pleasure boat market. It wouldn't even occur to me to look at one like that.
    Says the guy who's just flushed ,dismantled and refitted the fresh circuit on his perkins.... Pulled the elbow and turbo for a look. We did about 400 hours on that cruise last year and another 100 or so since...which meant quite a lot of on the go servicing and generally remaining in touch with it. Due for another change and filters now.

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