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Thread: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

  1. #1
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    Default A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    As some of you may recall, we are going to install a new engine in our H28 "Bright Star" . This will be after the egine bay framing is sistered as who ever installed the old Universal Atomic model 20 16hp drilled the frames longitudely for the engine bed fastenings and six frames ended up cracking. This was very bad craftsmanship!

    I am very strongly considering the Beta Sixteen and will, most likely, choose that engine. But, it has come to me that the Kohler company, yes the Kohler who makes plumbing fixtures has just purchased an old line I Italian engine company, Lombardini. They produce a line of Marine diesels that range from 11 to 61 hp that look to be very well engineered. Click on the Brittish flag on the upper right of the page to translate from the Italian. This engine the Lomgadini 702 M produces 18 hp and weighs less than the Beta 16.

    However, I have had an amazing amount of difficulty contacting anyone who can give me any specifics or even a price for the Italian diesel. So if any of you know any way to contact anyone connected to the Italian engines I would appreciate some input.
    Thanks,
    Jay
    http://www.lombardinimarine.it/product/ldw-702-m/

  2. #2
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Jay, check your pm's...

    ...but first, please clear out some old pm's so my message can be sent.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    As some of you may recall, we are going to install a new engine in our H28 "Bright Star" . This will be after the egine bay framing is sistered as who ever installed the old Universal Atomic model 20 16hp drilled the frames longitudely for the engine bed fastenings and six frames ended up cracking. This was very bad craftsmanship!

    I am very strongly considering the Beta Sixteen and will, most likely, choose that engine. But, it has come to me that the Kohler company, yes the Kohler who makes plumbing fixtures has just purchased an old line I Italian engine company, Lombardini. They produce a line of Marine diesels that range from 11 to 61 hp that look to be very well engineered. Click on the Brittish flag on the upper right of the page to translate from the Italian. This engine the Lomgadini 702 M produces 18 hp and weighs less than the Beta 16.

    However, I have had an amazing amount of difficulty contacting anyone who can give me any specifics or even a price for the Italian diesel. So if any of you know any way to contact anyone connected to the Italian engines I would appreciate some input.
    Thanks,
    Jay
    http://www.lombardinimarine.it/product/ldw-702-m/
    Stay with beta or Yanmar it's not so much where the base company is it's where and how you're going to get parts in the future and they both have strong usa Parts Networks

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Didn't Ian use Lombardini engines in Meg Merrilies?

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Thank you Denise,
    The Yanmar is much too heavy and out sized for the engine bay in my boat. I probably will go with the Beta but wanted to investigate the Lombardini as it is the lightest of the three and produces 2 more hp. According to my contacts in Italy, it is a very smooth running engine.
    Jay

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    May be Ian will chime in on this.
    Jay

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Yes, Ian's boat has Lombardini's. I had very good support during the design phase of the project from this guy:

    Dan Schermerhorn
    HamiltonJet Product Manager
    Kohler Marine Area Manager
    Kraft Power Corporation
    199 Wildwood Ave
    P.O. Box 2184
    Woburn MA 01801-2024
    Office 781-404-2236
    Cell: 617-908-0163

    www.kraftpower.com <http://www.kraftpower.com/>
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Yes, Ian's boat has Lombardini's. I had very good support during the design phase of the project from this guy:

    Dan Schermerhorn
    HamiltonJet Product Manager
    Kohler Marine Area Manager
    Kraft Power Corporation
    199 Wildwood Ave
    P.O. Box 2184
    Woburn MA 01801-2024
    Office 781-404-2236
    Cell: 617-908-0163

    www.kraftpower.com
    On the other hand Kohler has been around for a long time I think mostly air cooled engines? but I'm far from an expert I know what other Boat Owners tell me and I had an old Universal in my boat that ran and ran and ran. it was a 5416

    Hey you go Jay, bring back some warm memories...

    Last edited by DeniseO30; 02-09-2018 at 02:17 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  9. #9
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Lombardini has a long an successful history, too, Denise. The company was founded in 1933 and like many small engine companies, began by making engines for agricultural use. They have been sold here in Nova Scotia since the early 'eighties with limited market penetration (old habits die hard, as you have noted with your personal experience), but with only minimal complaints from customers that I know of. A couple of people whom I know personally have told me that parts availability for their Lombardini's is no worse than that of other, more familiar brands in North America. I will admit, though, that their website sucks.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    I think JohnB put a Lombardini in Waione, too. Until recently I think they have mostly been used as generator/refrigerator power in long haul trucks.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    However, I have had an amazing amount of difficulty contacting anyone who can give me any specifics or even a price for the Italian diesel.
    Before you order, I suggest you make sure they address this issue to your satisfaction.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Jay, check your pm's...

    ...but first, please clear out some old pm's so my message can be sent.
    you were right. I fixed it!
    Jay

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    I tossed out a heavy yanmar from my Grey Seal , and put in a Lombardini .
    It was much lighter , stronger , and much smoother.
    And it gave me absolutely no trouble.
    Sorting out the company contacts is important though , but I'm sure it can be done.
    Rob J.

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    I had a Lombardini in a tractor. It was 60's vintage, air cooled and not quiet. Certainly ran well though.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I had a Lombardini in a tractor. It was 60's vintage, air cooled and not quiet. Certainly ran well though.
    A friend of mine has a Farryman V2. In his boat I think it's called an A30. Just mentioned it because they are still in business, as is Lister?

    I was just offering opinion like everybody else but if you can't get him to call you back with a price...

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Jay, my only experience with Lombardini were air cooled single cylinder diesel used on fruit picking mobile platform. I remember the maker had quite a few used ones in his work shop, so reliability was suspect. Maybe the environment was harsh, air cooled, usual diesel oil weeps, south Australian summer, long hours, dust everywhere. I did think at the time, 25 years ago, that that a light aluminium single cyl. air cooled diesel would be a good but noisy thing for a H28. I guess you are talking about a conventional, liquid cooled, multi cylinder diesel, if it is lighter, are there any substantial parts that are aluminium? Don't know if I would be lead customer, particularly with a boat installation, lots of hassle getting everything right. Never forgot those engines in the shed.
    the invisible man........

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    I have seen the same model number listed as a Kohler and a Lombardini. Maybe they just use the brand names in different markets. Have you looked at kohlerengines.com?

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    When I got the Grey Seal , it had a tired yanmar in it.
    I thought I would get it rebuilt , but the yanmar dealers didn't want anything to do with it.
    They didn't even want to talk about a rebuild.
    But they would sell me a new yanmar !.
    So , I did my research.
    Putting in a new engine meant a low driveshaft , as the current setup was for the yanmar , which had a very low driveshaft.
    So that left only a couple of alternatives.
    And the Lombardini was the best of those.
    It also happened to be the lightest , the lowest , and a smoother twin , that gave 30% more horsepower.
    And the cheapest.
    The dealership was a company that dealt in several different brands , including Kohler.
    They were about 90 minutes drive , from the boat.
    But as part of their service , they came , as did the very experienced boat builder who installed it , for the launch.
    Of course it behaved perfectly , as did the whole driveline.
    Not a drop of water or oil in the immaculate engine bay , or bilge , painted gloss white.
    I couldn't fault their service.
    Later on the company folded , and I believe the brands involved were left in the wilderness somewhat.
    I would go back to Lombardini http://www.lombardinigroup.it/en/lombardini-marine , and contact them , re your issues.
    Regards Rob J.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portland View Post
    When I got the Grey Seal , it had a tired yanmar in it.
    I thought I would get it rebuilt , but the yanmar dealers didn't want anything to do with it.
    They didn't even want to talk about a rebuild.
    But they would sell me a new yanmar !.
    So , I did my research.
    Putting in a new engine meant a low driveshaft , as the current setup was for the yanmar , which had a very low driveshaft.
    So that left only a couple of alternatives.
    And the Lombardini was the best of those.
    It also happened to be the lightest , the lowest , and a smoother twin , that gave 30% more horsepower.
    And the cheapest.
    The dealership was a company that dealt in several different brands , including Kohler.
    They were about 90 minutes drive , from the boat.
    But as part of their service , they came , as did the very experienced boat builder who installed it , for the launch.
    Of course it behaved perfectly , as did the whole driveline.
    Not a drop of water or oil in the immaculate engine bay , or bilge , painted gloss white.
    I couldn't fault their service.
    Later on the company folded , and I believe the brands involved were left in the wilderness somewhat.
    I would go back to Lombardini http://www.lombardinigroup.it/en/lombardini-marine , and contact them , re your issues.
    Regards Rob J.
    Rob out this way Mack boring is the go to for Yanmar rebuilds. There are of course many others

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Rob out this way back boring is the go to for Yanmar rebuilds. There are of course many others

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    Phone keyboard? Mack Boring http://mackboring.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Phone keyboard? Mack Boring http://mackboring.com/
    I did not post a link intentionally . Don't want to drift off into Yanmar space

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    <gentle ribbin Denise, I am beginning to think that you are on commission with Yanmar... <grin>
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    But, it has come to me that the Kohler company, yes the Kohler who makes plumbing fixtures has just purchased an old line I Italian engine company, Lombardini. They produce a line of Marine diesels that range from 11 to 61 hp that look to be very well engineered.
    It can get confusing, but Kohler makes a lot of stuff and has been making plumbing fixtures for a long, long time. Their plumbing fixtures, which are "designer quality" and priced accordingly, drive me crazy. They were installed in the house when I bought it. They were supposedly "finestkind" when installed. But I've found Kohler is terrible for keeping parts in stock. A lot of their stuff is unique and their "guts" are proprietary. You can't just go to Home Despot and grab a new toilet valve off the shelf it it's one that is needed for a discontinued model toilet. When they quit making a toilet, they quit making the unique innards. "Planned obsolescence," I guess. It's easier to install a new toilet than to try to buy aftermarket parts for them, if they can be found at all.

    That said, Kohler has also for many years made generators and refrigeration units (along with cabinets and a lot of other stuff) and the engines on those units seem to work fine. I've got a 5KW Kohler generator on a motorhome that is abused by setting idle for months at a time, and yet it seems to start up easily every time and has been doing that for the fifteen years or so that I've had it. That says little about the Italian diesels they've picked up, but I doubt Kohler would want to expose their brand name to ridicule by putting it on an inferior product. On the other hand, I'm guessing somebody will need a fair bit of luck to source parts here, particularly if Kohler drops the line some time in the future.

    Have you considered those small Chinese irrigation pump diesels manufactured by the People's Patriotic Diesel Manufacturing Collective?
    Last edited by Bob Cleek; 02-09-2018 at 07:22 PM.

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    I did not post a link intentionally . Don't want to drift off into Yanmar space

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Your post had it spelled "back boring". I added the link 'cause I new it offhand.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Your post had it spelled "back boring". I added the link 'cause I new it offhand.
    Noooo mmd if anything I'd like Beta more. Yes, don't we love how autocorrect really corrects everything to make it wrong. You go back and look and you know you didn't type it that way but it changed it that nanosecond between enter and post

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  26. #26
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Hi Jay,

    I understand selecting a new diesel for your baby can be a whirlwind experience. I went through that recently for my project, spending many hours researching. I chose Beta. No matter which way you go it is an expensive and lengthy process (if doing it yourself) and trying to save a couple thousand on the initial cost is less important to me than long term support an quality. Beta is a marinized Kubota, with parts support using the Kubota distribution so I should be able to call up any Kubota dealer and pick up pencil zincs for the manifold, filters, soft coupler and any other specialty parts for a good long time to come. Given the investment, that's a real peace of mind. So - I guess I'm just putting in a vote for Beta. It's too early for me to say on actual parts support but so far I'm really pleased with the quality of the Beta.
    Good luck with your project.

    Travis.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    I think this thread is getting ridiculous. Kohler sells the base engine in the US under the name KDW 702. Kohler has a site that does not mention marine markets at all. Kohlers site is equipped with a dealer locator that shows three "expert dealers" and six "normal" dealers in the general area in question, plus a special phone number for diesel engines under contacts. https://power.kohler.com/na-en/engines/dealers I think it would be safe to say that some phone calls will clarify the fact if they sell the marinized version in the US, and for how much. Just as a guidline, the official Lombardini Marine price in Germany for a LDW 702M + TMC 40 is 6201.68 Euros +VAT. That translates to about 7600 US dollars plus sales tax. The engine without transmission is 5630.25 Euros + VAT, meaning approx. 6900 USD+sales tax. Individual dealers may have better pricing.

    As for the engine itself, it is probably the most advanced small agricultural/industrial diesel on the market, featuring unit injectors.

    As for the Kubota based engines, I usually find Nanni cheaper then Beta. And they are not the only one using the same base engine, one can shop around. The other possible choice would be a Mitsubishi based engine wich has indirect injection and should vibrate less then the direct injected competition.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    The reality for me was that the Lombardini was the best engine for me , bar none.
    Because it was lighter , and more compact than anything else it changed the balance (for the better) considerably , and to have a lower sole built , making the boat more easily used.
    I had no issues with parts or service.
    The new owners have no issues either.
    I have a Kohler 25hp twin in my ride on mower.
    While the mower is falling apart , the Kohler has always done its job , no problems.
    I've never had any need for parts.
    I like both engines , for their respective jobs.
    Rob J.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    We fitted a 3 cyl in the 90s and we did about 100 to 120 hours per annum back then. Quite a few of the classics here did the same after us and partly on my recommendation but I dont like what I've been hearing lately now they have some hours and a few years on them.
    On balance, I wouldn't choose that engine again,I'd be looking for low tech fuel management rather than common rail or FOCS.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Now that is interesting John.
    Could you elaborate please .
    What problems are they having , and why ?.
    I mean I can guess , but I'd prefer some actual experienced advise.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    I've had my 502 Lombardini 8 years now, it's had a new exhaust elbow, heat exchanger repair and i'm on 800 odd hours. Starts well, goes everywhere at full throttle and has never let me down, the 702 is just more horses, similar engine. Have those in 3 other trust boats, all sitting at 400 odd hours with no serious failures either, one sucked up a fuel tank liner but still runs nicely.

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Not sure if this is true for the current engines, but I remember someone complaining that the injectors were a pain to work with and require a special tool to get them out. This was for a twin cylinder engine, but also applied to the bigger ones in the same series.

    I would vote Kubota/Beta

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    Not sure if this is true for the current engines, but I remember someone complaining that the injectors were a pain to work with and require a special tool to get them out. This was for a twin cylinder engine, but also applied to the bigger ones in the same series.

    I would vote Kubota/Beta
    What mfr. does not require various special tools? Maybe 60's vintage Lister? I'm not trying to be snarky at all - my last Kubota tractor had 20+ special tools listed in the service manual.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    I'm not sure if my Lombardini had a special tool for the injectors , because I never had to remove them.
    Even if I ran out of diesel , the new fuel could be hand pumped up , I never had to crack an injector.

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    Default Re: A new company to us for Diesel engines.

    I thank you all for your comments. You have convinced me that I should do more research on the Lombardini 702M before I make a final decision. In the last six weeks I had gotten no info other than from their web site until I posted here and got honest user info on it.
    Jay

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