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Thread: recutting sails

  1. #36
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    Default Re: recutting sails

    Here you go Brock


    This is just some goofy sail for some goofy boat, I don't even remember which one.
    Sailing in the land of Trades Winds and Pounding Salt, I usually spend as much time slowing my boat down as speeding her up.
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 02-04-2018 at 04:50 AM.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: recutting sails

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Just to make it clear, not a single thing I wrote implied anything of the sort. I quite specifically wrote "if it means you get afloat and have a great time then go for it".

    The point was just that around here, there seems to be a bit of a contradiction or inconsistency between the high value many people put on the qualities of hulls, and the much lower value many people put on the qualities of sails. Todd seems to be saying the same thing; many people in the wooden boat movement will jeer at a "Clorox bottle" boat, an ugly boat or a badly maintained wooden hull, yet don't seem to apply the same criteria to sails.
    Hi Chris, no worries or implied wrongness. Reading a lot of your racing stuff is educational, and you have pointed out in various threads haw one persons extra 1/10th of a knot due to sail/trim or hull design is what makes them winners, rather than losers. if that stuff is actually of any importance.
    I agree 100% that a well made and designed professionally cut or constructed sail, is going to out-perform anything made from a re-cut sail. My point being by how much, and at what price. I was just offering of an opinion, based on real life, out there and cruising, as an alternative to what might be an expensive option.
    The fact flat cut sails are not flat when in use is pretty obvious to anyone who has ever sailed, but does go to show how some members have such contempt for others experience, to the extent to even suggest knowing what they think they know; quite remarkable.
    I was most impressed by the first set of laminate sails i used on an Eboat, they were at the time at the cutting edge and without a doubt better performing. I do enjoy a boat that sails well and reliably, anyone who has cruised without an engine absolutely requires that. Its quite obvious that there are people out there cruising around with sub-standard sails, but still getting where they want to go, though may be a little slower. Again, i will just say that extra speed does come with a proportionally high price tag. I have worked in 2 professional sail lofts, I dont consider myself a sailmaker, but i do have experience of re-cutting old, and assembling new sails. It may also be that i am happy sailing across the water for an afternoon, as i am sailing over a horizon to another continent, with sails that are less than perfect......as long as im on my way. Not everyone has a budget for "perfection", and from what i have seen, most of those "perfect" sails have lost all their performance edge within the first few years, but might be ok for cruising use for another 10, making sails from those 10 year old sails will come at a price in performance and longevity, but thats for the builder to decide.
    Last edited by skaraborgcraft; 02-04-2018 at 05:54 AM.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: recutting sails

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Here you go Brock


    This is just some goofy sail for some goofy boat, I don't even remember which one.
    Sailing in the land of Trades Winds and Pounding Salt, I usually spend as much time slowing my boat down as speeding her up.
    Thanks, Bruce! Your pictures are always worth a thousand words.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: recutting sails

    I just had a conversation with a collegue who worked for 20 years for 2 of the best sailmakers in The Netherlands. You may have have seen him in my video'Two luggers at play', he is the guy with the blue gennaker.
    I asked if you could cut of the top of a bermudasail to make a smaller gaffsail. Starting point is a modern designed and cut bermuda sail, not done on the floor with extra luff round to create draft. He thinks it can be done when you add a little extra cloth under the new gaff. It might be not as perfect as a sail that is designed for it but the difference is very slight. I am sure you would only notice it when racing in a one design with 1 factor different. Not easy to organize.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: recutting sails

    Starting point is a modern designed and cut bermuda sail, not done on the floor with extra luff round to create draft.
    Modern Bermuda sail designs, whether cross-cut or radial and whether lofted and cut on a floor or plotted and cut by a computer on a vacuum table still have basically the same sort of luff round and its function is still to create draft. Broadseaming and/or panel shaping (radials) is then used to position that draft. You have been misinformed. Cutting the top off of a Bermuda sail and leaving the lower two thirds or so of its original luff curve to become the top, middle and bottom of a gaff sail's luff curve is nowhere near the same curve and will most likely result in a poorly performing sail with excessive draft, positioned too far aft. It's basic freaking Sail Design 101.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: recutting sails

    Not one ounce of calculations involved in this boat..honestly I do not even know what is chord,draft,ce,clr,etc.




    She sails great! Going strong on her eighth year since refit/rerig. Good thing the original builder is long gone otherwise his head might explode at this blasphemy!


    Last edited by wizbang 13; 02-04-2018 at 04:45 PM.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: recutting sails

    Some day, when I'm as old as Todd, or Bruce, I hope to have even just a small fraction of their wisdom, yarr, and cajones.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: recutting sails




    I love this photo!

    Jeff

  9. #44
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    Default Re: recutting sails

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    Modern Bermuda sail designs, whether cross-cut or radial and whether lofted and cut on a floor or plotted and cut by a computer on a vacuum table still have basically the same sort of luff round and its function is still to create draft. Broadseaming and/or panel shaping (radials) is then used to position that draft. You have been misinformed. Cutting the top off of a Bermuda sail and leaving the lower two thirds or so of its original luff curve to become the top, middle and bottom of a gaff sail's luff curve is nowhere near the same curve and will most likely result in a poorly performing sail with excessive draft, positioned too far aft. It's basic freaking Sail Design 101.
    I just received a text from my collegue who works right now at deVriessails: in the beginning of computerdesigned sails there was not yet a module for gaff sails, so they designed a taller sail with more luff round and 'cut of' the top and faired in the gaff. So I guess I am right.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: recutting sails



    Without doubt, the most outrageous pox job on a small trad boat i have ever seen. I wonder how many experts said it would not be succesfull?

  11. #46
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    Default Re: recutting sails

    I just received a text from my collegue who works right now at deVriessails: in the beginning of computerdesigned sails there was not yet a module for gaff sails, so they designed a taller sail with more luff round and 'cut of' the top and faired in the gaff. So I guess I am right.
    Oh it can certainly be done, and it did take quite a while for someone to make computer software for four-sided sail cutting. Unfortunately though, it does not generate the luff curve that doing the actual design work for a gaff sail would produce, where both the tack and throat corners would be at the zero point. It can't, so it is not going to produce the proper luff shape and draft. So for anybody who actually knows how to properly cut a gaff sail you are not right at all. It was simply a way to cut corners on production, hoping the customers didn't know any better.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: recutting sails

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post


    Without doubt, the most outrageous pox job on a small trad boat i have ever seen. I wonder how many experts said it would not be succesfull?
    "Said"...as in past tense? Ha! people still do!
    Everyone knows ,
    One CANNOT put epoxy in the seams of a carvel boat ! The wood will crush...or split...or somehow self destruct.
    One CANNOT just drop a CB trunk and a mast in a boat without calculating a buncha number stuff ! The boat will not tack,point or gybe.
    One CANNOT leave a boat with epoxy resin only,it MUST be varnished or painted! Or else it will melt or disintegrate in an hour or three,especially in the tropics.
    One CANNOT build a sail on the floor of a pizza restaurant for fifty bux in a half a day while getting lit without help from R2D2.
    One CANNOT just cut up a boat and stick it back together with virtually every shape and dimension changed! 8 inches wider,6 inches shorter,flatter deadrise,200 pounds lighter.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: recutting sails

    Some of this discussion resembles my approach to painting the hull. I call it the "fifty foot paint job". Basicly semi-gloss or flat white, exterior latex or Kirby's depending on the boat, rolled on with a fine nap and not brushed out. Fast, easy, and cheap. But here's where I depart from some of the argument going on here. I do not pretend that what I'm doing is first rate work. It's simply adequate for my purposes.

    It's perfectly legitimate to accept second or third rate stuff because it's cost-effective or because that's the best you can do, and then to do a first rate job of making it work for a first rate level of pleasure.

    Maybe we should sheath our swords and have a beer.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: recutting sails

    I once had a well known yacht architect bless my conversion of a 14' traditional lapstrake hull (looked like a Lyle Hess design) to sail rig. I designed a preliminary and paid him to crunch numbers and tweak it. To summarize...he said something like dynamic changes with loading and sea conditions made sail and cb calculations jump all over the place on small boats this size. If memory is right his exact words on small sailboats were the rig is a "best guess" because of those factors. Add swinging gaffs, flexing spars to the mix and sail calculations are even more of a moving target. So any sail close to the numbers can vary between highly efficient to not efficient. I suppose if a person sails only on millponds it is less of a problem. On that boat I made plastic sheet sails with duct tape to get the area and rig sized. Once it was dialed in I had a loft make sails.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: recutting sails

    I used to recut sails with a hot knife just to size them. After a few trials and I would go to the sailmaker and have him recut another sail to that outline, finish the edges, leech line, and batten pockets etc. all for less than $100 (on a small sail, maybe 100 ft) I'm sure labor rates have changed, but new sailcloth at that time was $7.00 a yard vs. free, so it was a huge savings. I was able to compare a variety of sail configurations from a full on "Marconi", Gunter, or Lug to a "Chicken foot" all on the same boat, and it was a heck of a lot of fun...

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