Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: First Canoe Build: Whtie Guide 18.5 Footer

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    5

    Default First Canoe Build: White Guide 18.5 Footer

    Hi All,


    I have been reading and taking notes of many things on this forum and slowly working on my first canoe. My uncle had built a 16 foot chestnut prospector some 15 or so years ago and i always thought it was a thing of beauty. Last year i took it up for some paddling in Canada and fell in love with the idea of building my own. What better time than over winter? I picked up Canoecraft and How to build a cedar strip by Gil to get the best understanding of each step. Also, youtube is helpful to see it in action. Anyways, I have a few questions and curiosities about the process so far. Feel free to throw anything and everything out there for me to consider in this build.

    Station forms:

    What is the margin of error for these? As in, while cutting them maybe the jig saw wanders a little inside the line. Do i need to be concerned about that or will the strips cover it up? I plan to build it without staples. I know i cannot be perfect in every step but trying to set myself up as best as possible.

    Gil recommends cutting out 4 pieces for the stems and laminating them together to make the two needed, but twice as thick as the other forms. Is this pivotal? I have seen variations of it, so was curious how you went about it.

    Wood:

    I plan to mill my own strips. My uncle has the bead and cove bits, so i just need the wood and a planer.

    I plan to use western red cedar. What have you paid for wood on similar size canoes? I am looking to get 75 board feet. I know it is not necessary but think it would make things easier to get 20 foots strips, if possible. One place is http://medfordcedar.com/. Has anyone use their wood? Do you have any recommendations for places to check out in the 1-2 hours of Northeast, MD?

    Also, besides clear, tight grained wood, and straight pieces, should i look for anything else to ensure quality wood?

    Thank you for any and all help. My uncles canoe:

    DSC_0767a.jpg

    IMAG0862a.jpg

    -Robbie
    Last edited by Traveling Sub; 01-28-2018 at 07:35 PM. Reason: Spelling

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    2,536

    Default Re: First Canoe Build: Whtie Guide 18.5 Footer

    Robbie welcome aboard!
    I want to ask you a question and I want you to think do you really need a 18.50' canoe??

    Gil is kind of seat of the pants builder, but you will find that you have to maneuver bevel trim shave even remake forms to get what is called a fair lay of the strips. You arrive at that by using a strip as what is called a batten strip and a "moaning chair"

    NJ white cedar is great.. but short.. you will lucky to find 7ft long.

    I see Medford has long Atlantic WC,. Good to know $$$

    White Cedar and red Cedars although both Cedar and light in weight are very very different Woods in working qualities.

    Every strip boat builder gets obsessed with finding clear LONG stock.. after the 3 builds we gave up and went with the cedar deck boards ripped into random length.

    After 6 strip builds I made the conscious decision to build traditional wood canvas canoes and boats.

    Sawn strips are ok, don't really need a planer, no staples.. I don't agree. but some want to obsess about that when a hot water soak closes staple holes well enough. Stems.. you can make anyway you want. strip canoes don't have to have stems. and they are more cosmetic then structural. you can soak wood and gain some flex, you can also over bend them, then glue over the form. or steam bend.

    All our builds were canoecraft. my prospector is at my Daughter's on Signal Mtn TN rotting in her back yard.. so much for a build and gift of love...


    Last edited by DeniseO30; 01-28-2018 at 04:25 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: First Canoe Build: Whtie Guide 18.5 Footer

    Hey Denise,

    Thank you and i appreciate the response; i was out for the better part of today.

    I probably do not need an 18 foot canoe but from what i have seen (style and beauty) and the fact that i want to use it for a tripping canoe, it made sense for me to pick that one out of Gil's designs. It does sound like there will be a lot of adjustments as I go in building it but i have yet to get my moaning chair out. I should probably get one to start with.

    How thick are your stem forms? do you laminate two pieces of wood so it is about 1.5 inches thick?

    Do you not use a planer then? That would make it a bit easier on the budget. I am guessing after the are sewn, they should be pretty uniform.

    hmmm i may have to consider staples in that case. Especially if they are unnoticeable.

    Beautiful canoes by the way!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    2,536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Traveling Sub View Post
    Hey Denise,

    Thank you and i appreciate the response; i was out for the better part of today.

    I probably do not need an 18 foot canoe but from what i have seen (style and beauty) and the fact that i want to use it for a tripping canoe, it made sense for me to pick that one out of Gil's designs. It does sound like there will be a lot of adjustments as I go in building it but i have yet to get my moaning chair out. I should probably get one to start with.

    How thick are your stem forms? do you laminate two pieces of wood so it is about 1.5 inches thick?

    Do you not use a planer then? That would make it a bit easier on the budget. I am guessing after the are sewn, they should be pretty uniform.

    hmmm i may have to consider staples in that case. Especially if they are unnoticeable.

    Beautiful canoes by the way!
    An 18-foot canoe is great if you can carry. Withmy 16 foot prospector, we used to go for a week.

    we made the forms in 3/4" plywood or particle board the Staples held as long as you didn't pull them and re staple.

    We got real good at using cheater strips so we didn't have to coax twist or steam, boil, or scream & shout to get some of the strips around the bilge turn and into the bow or Stern.

    If you think about it, the strips are going to be sanded and or scraped into shape on both sides so there's really no reason to have an ultra nice finish when they come off the Saw or out of a planer. Bead and Cove is great but you can get by without it where the strips lay rather flat without a curve to the bilge. We use Titebond for the glued also.

    I made a tiny miter box to cut miniature scarf joints in place on the strips as we built the boat. It works out pretty good, like doing a wood floor!


    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    2,536

    Default

    More lol
    This is the Redbird. I deleted almost everything on Photobucket I was so angry when they held everybody hostage and I'm too lazy to rescan everything

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: First Canoe Build: Whtie Guide 18.5 Footer

    Thanks again! Do you have a picture of the miter box? I love seeing tools used in a creative way!

    I agree photobucket is trash now.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    2,536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Traveling Sub View Post
    Thanks again! Do you have a picture of the miter box? I love seeing tools used in a creative way!

    I agree photobucket is trash now.
    No, it was quite some time ago at least 15 years. Scarf joints in the strips don't have to be structural because they are going to be in case so a 45 or more is all they need it. a cut like that can be done freehand to just hold the two strips and a fine-tooth saw at the angle you want and the two strips will match each other when he put them together. The joints will only be highly noticeable if he use mismatched strips like dark against light

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Twin Lake, MI
    Posts
    35

    Default Re: First Canoe Build: Whtie Guide 18.5 Footer

    Get Canoecraft by Ted Moore's and don't look back. By far the definitive treatise on all things about strip building canoes. I made a jig on my miterbox(12" Dewalt non sliding) I clamped a piece of wood to the fence and table and cut them at I think and 8:1 angle or there about. I used aspen so the color was very close and the scarfs are almost unnoticeable which I was going for. I've also seen many butt joints on canoes over the years. Since the whole thing is getting encapsulated in cloth and resin the wood becomes a core that can look anyway you like it. I used 3/4" MDF(it was free) for my station molds on both builds but I wasnt worried about staples staying put since I did a stapleless build on both my boats.

    Good Luck. I love my 15' Ranger Prospector BTW. Best canoe I've paddled. (of course I am partial)

    Good Luck!
    Todd

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Twin Lake, MI
    Posts
    35

    Default Re: First Canoe Build: Whtie Guide 18.5 Footer

    As to your ? about station molds yes they have to be close. The offset tables in Canoecraft and I suspect sold with other canoe plans by Ted Moores are really very close. I cut my molds out with a jig saw close to the line and then sanded them down to the line a belt/oscillating spindle sander to get them right to the line. I checked with a batten and they were right on after i set them up on the strongback. I cant speak to gills book and mold patterns. I own his book but it was more for reference.

    I agree with Denise30 don't get hung up on long stock. I used 16' deck boards from Menards hand picked by me from about 500 in stock. I was fussy and was able to get 6 fairly clear boards. Some small knots and imperfections but for the price at a $1 per linear foot at the time I couldn't go wrong as far as I saw it. I've since looked and the quality just hasn't been the same. The next boat I scarfed every strip since I couldn't get aspen in lengths over 8'. It is a Wee Lassie II - another good reference book from Mack McCarthy. The section on caning seats is excellent.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Concord, Massachusetts
    Posts
    2,204

    Default Re: First Canoe Build: Whtie Guide 18.5 Footer

    I am not sure if Gil's measurements are true to the originals, but I have had two original EM White 18.5 ft Guide wood and canvas canoes and I enjoy those big old Guide canoes. I traded one that was kind of my daily driver and have regretted it ever since. I have another EM White Guide now that is in very good original condition (closed gunwales) and it is waiting for me to put new skin on it. I always liked the lines of the White Guide. There is something reminiscent of old bark canoes left in those lines.

    I found the one I traded to be and exceptionally speedy canoe. It was a fine tripping canoe and friends would comment on its performance. It had low freeboard, but I expect a previous restorer may have trimmed the old rails off and installed new ones making the canoe an inch or so shallower. The long water line is good for glide and for shallow Maine Streams. The first two photos are the one I traded. It handled a good load (there is a 100 pound cast iron griddle plus gear in the bilge) and two dogs. The next three are my replacement project. Keep us posted on your project.

    IMG_0464.jpgIMG_0446.jpgIMG_0598.JPGbow.jpgDeck.jpg
    Last edited by Fitz; 01-30-2018 at 03:19 PM.
    "Wherever there is a channel for water, there is a road for the canoe. " - Thoreau

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    2,536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz View Post
    I am not sure if Gil's measurements are true to the originals, but I have had two original EM White 18.5 ft Guide wood and canvas canoes and I enjoy those big old Guide canoes. I traded one that was kind of my daily driver and have regretted it ever since. I have another EM White Guide now that is in very good original condition (closed gunwales) and it is waiting for me to put new skin on it. I always liked the lines of the White Guide. There is something reminiscent of old bark canoes left in those lines.

    I found the one I traded to be and exceptionally speedy canoe. It was a fine tripping canoe and friends would comment on its performance. It had low freeboard, but I expect a previous restorer may have trimmed the old rails off and installed new ones making the canoe an inch or so shallower. The long water line is good for glide and for shallow Maine Streams. The first two photos are the one I traded. It handled a good load (there is a 100 pound cast iron griddle plus gear in the bilge) and two dogs. The next three are my replacement project. Keep us posted on your project.

    IMG_0464.jpgIMG_0446.jpgIMG_0598.JPGbow.jpgDeck.jpg
    I can't deny longer boats are faster. The few times I paddled my old town 18-footer I was pretty surprised how easily it moved through the water

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: First Canoe Build: Whtie Guide 18.5 Footer

    Thank you for all the advise, i will take this into consideration in my building and keep you all update as i can!

    For now, i am doing a little skiing.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Jefferson, Maine
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: First Canoe Build: White Guide 18.5 Footer

    Quote Originally Posted by Traveling Sub View Post
    Hi All,


    I have been reading and taking notes of many things on this forum and slowly working on my first canoe. My uncle had built a 16 foot chestnut prospector some 15 or so years ago and i always thought it was a thing of beauty. Last year i took it up for some paddling in Canada and fell in love with the idea of building my own. What better time than over winter? I picked up Canoecraft and How to build a cedar strip by Gil to get the best understanding of each step. Also, youtube is helpful to see it in action. Anyways, I have a few questions and curiosities about the process so far. Feel free to throw anything and everything out there for me to consider in this build.

    Station forms:

    What is the margin of error for these? As in, while cutting them maybe the jig saw wanders a little inside the line. Do i need to be concerned about that or will the strips cover it up? I plan to build it without staples. I know i cannot be perfect in every step but trying to set myself up as best as possible.

    Gil recommends cutting out 4 pieces for the stems and laminating them together to make the two needed, but twice as thick as the other forms. Is this pivotal? I have seen variations of it, so was curious how you went about it.

    Wood:

    I plan to mill my own strips. My uncle has the bead and cove bits, so i just need the wood and a planer.

    I plan to use western red cedar. What have you paid for wood on similar size canoes? I am looking to get 75 board feet. I know it is not necessary but think it would make things easier to get 20 foots strips, if possible. One place is http://medfordcedar.com/. Has anyone use their wood? Do you have any recommendations for places to check out in the 1-2 hours of Northeast, MD?

    Also, besides clear, tight grained wood, and straight pieces, should i look for anything else to ensure quality wood?

    Thank you for any and all help. My uncles canoe:

    DSC_0767a.jpg

    IMAG0862a.jpg

    -Robbie
    My first canoe was the 18-1/2' EM White design from Gilpatrick's book. I shortened it to 18'. The station lines were fine. Transferred to 1/2" EX plywood cut with jig saw and edge sanded to lines. I used Dave Hazen's building method without stems to keep the canoe as lightweight as possible and used 3/16" thick strips, no bead and cove, but hand beveled strip joints. 4 oz S-glass fiberglass with System Three Epoxy. The canoe was 55 pounds. One great canoe, fast, fun and carrys everything for extended wilderness trips.

    I've built more than a hundred stripper boats. You may wish to consult all my "Shop Tips" pages for details on my Stapleless Stripping methods @ http://www.laughingloon.com/shop.tips.html

    And you can see my building methods on YouTube @ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCX4...18TJRJnghgiIQw

    Start with "Building Ootek Part One"

    Most info concerns kayaks but works for canoes too.


    All the best,
    Rob Macks
    Laughing Loon Custom Canoes & Kayaks
    http://www.laughingloon.com/
    207-549-3531


    “All things are difficult before they are easy.” - Thomas Fuller

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    2,536

    Default

    I used to run my prospector on rivers mostly class 1 and 2 but occasionally 3 and 4 and only once on 5 which was lol a mistake, she split right down the middle when we climbed over a sharp Rock as my son was paddling a boat over to see the girl floating by in a rubber raft lol. The prospector really comes to life in moving water as is true for most all canoes except maybe the racing types. I used to love it, I still miss it. I'll not likely be doing it again now that I'm "older"

    My only strong suggestion would be! Don't be in a hurry to Varnish the hull after the boat is built. Get her out there test her out see if the bottom oil cans or if the boat in general is okay because once you varnish the fiberglass it's miserable to remove.

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Indian Land, SC, USA
    Posts
    597

    Default Re: First Canoe Build: Whtie Guide 18.5 Footer

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    No, it was quite some time ago at least 15 years. Scarf joints in the strips don't have to be structural because they are going to be in case so a 45 or more is all they need it. a cut like that can be done freehand to just hold the two strips and a fine-tooth saw at the angle you want and the two strips will match each other when he put them together. The joints will only be highly noticeable if he use mismatched strips like dark against light

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    If I remember, X-acto used to make a small miter box and saw - I don't know if that would be big enough for your strips, but similar to what you may need

    Rick

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: First Canoe Build: White Guide 18.5 Footer

    Thank you, Rob.

    I am getting more into it this week/weekend so will take this all into consideration. I will post pics up once i get something worth taking pics of lol

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •