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Thread: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Ross,

    In the past 30 years on the sailing side I can recall owning:-

    Laser 1, Laser Stratos keel, LDC RS200, Ovington/ Bethwaite 59'er, Wanderer, Wayfarer +S, Topper Cruz 16, Wostenholme Coot (2), Oughtred Gannet, Whilly Boat, Tirrik, Tammie Norrie, Skerriskiff, Wee Rob, McGregor, Shearwater a Dongray Cormorant, a Solway Shearwater, Solway Curlew a Lymington Scow (3), a Swift 18, a Gartside Oysterman 16, Cornish Cove Boat, a Rustler/ Piper 24, Moody 27 and my recent chariot a Claridge Lymington Pram (in case your wondering the Morisson Laser Stratos Keel was the standout boat looking back, the Coot's fastest in very light air and the Tammie Norrie was the most all round usefull and beautifull.

    My sailing is in the Western Solent, between Southampton and the Needles...Beaulieu, Lymington, Yarmouth, Cowes, Keyhaven (launch site) mostly the triangle between Keyhaven, Newtown Creek and Beaulieu, as frankly it's the nicest part of the Solent, for small boats. In the past Christchurch harbour, occasionally Poole. My furthest offshore is a 50 mile cross channel sail to France. I only get one day off a week and no holidays running a veterinary practice. Like others I dream of selling up, buying a Vancouver 34 and crossing the Pacific. On that score I could actually go now. I'm 45, been sailing since I was about 8. I've also run 3 different 21ft fishing boats and a fast Ring powerboat.

    Let me explain with clarity and meticulous detail for the final time, why even from an inversion, sail and oar boats at the 13-16ft size end can have some side tanks with even less worry than a big wide planing dinghy that use them successfully. It will help understand why Walkabout's structural arrangement is no lethal monster.

    1. Inverted a sail and oar boat has by it's nature a relatively narrow waterline beam: 5ft (or less) instead of 6ft for a sailing focussed boat. It is less intrisically stable upside down than most others. Add to this the high ends/ flare/ sheer that these boats have and those ends hold the boat up allowing an even easier than normal rotation. I accept as boats get towards 20ft, the inverted waterplane area is now more significant.

    2. The shallow hull, due to the necessary low displacement and rowing ergonomics of a sail and oar boat means getting onto an upturned gunwale or hull is even less of a climb than usual. These wooden boats also have straked hulls and bilge runners making it easier.

    3. When standing on the hull/ gunwale when the boat is halfway round, the boat has an intrinsic low weight, therefore it doesn't need much side buoyancy to lift it and reducing the water scoop. That means there is less danger of not being able to submerse the tank with this boat type.

    On its side the narrow beam means the distance from the centerboard to the the water will be relatively smaller and more easily reached than a big wide flat planing dinghy. It also means the angle of the mast into the water will still be relatively more level than a big wide planing dinghy. If you did install twin offset foils then they are still right there at the waterline, capsized to either side.

    4. When the boat rights, these narrow waterline boats are less stable than big wide planing dinghies. Some water centrally contained is good for their stability on reboarding, but excessive water makes them more prone to rolling than that big wide planing dinghy with more primary stability.

    These boats have low intrinsic freeboard. Avoiding excessive water which will only make the freeboard lower is a good thing in any cross swell. Getting in these boats is still relatively easy as they have low midship freeboard slack bilges which dip to the waterline even empty in their natural state - or you can just use a stirrup.

    Upper middle classes baptising their kids at the Royal Lymington Sailing club: thrown off the jetty and told to right the boat in cold dirty water - better drowned than duffers - before they can go racing around moving car ferries in the tidal river.




    Boats that require excessive dewatering are an unaffordable luxury when people sail in confined spaces.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 02-09-2018 at 04:45 AM.

  2. #142
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    ESK, QLD, AUSTRALIA
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Edward,

    Thanks for the information about boats and sailing locations. 50 mile cross-channel sounds like a good trip, and I envy you that. Was it in a dinghy, and if so, what was the emergency buoyancy configuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    It will help understand why Walkabout's structural arrangement is no lethal monster.
    I have never indicated that Walkabout's internal arrangement was anything like a "lethal monster" (I know you weren't being serious), but to be serious, I don't think you will find anywhere that I have publicly critisised the work of another designer - at least, not a living one. I know Walkabout well, being a friend of one of the fellows who commissioned the design in the first place. John Welsford and I have discussed differing design philosophies between ourselves in the past, but I certainly would never make public comment about his work, and to my knowledge, John has never critisised my work in public. He and I have different approaches, and that is OK. As I have said repeatedly in this overly-long discussion, I am not trying to force my opinion on anybody - I'm just giving my opinion.

    I am a qualified boatbuilder, but I am not a Naval Architect (neither is John Welsford to the best of my knowledge, nor was Nathanael G. Herreshoff, L. Francis Herreshoff, nor Phil Bolger to name just a few). I am keenly aware that I am a 63yr old learner who has just scratched the surface of this deep and engaging subject. I still don't want side tanks in my sailing dinghies!

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    - better drowned than duffers -
    At least we appreciate the same books...

  3. #143
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
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    Oisterwijk, the Netherlands
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    51

    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Let me explain with clarity and meticulous detail for the final time, why even from an inversion, sail and oar boats at the 13-16ft size end can have some side tanks with even less worry than a big wide planing dinghy that use them successfully. It will help understand why Walkabout's structural arrangement is no lethal monster.
    I hope that the above comment is not meant seriously. To me it reads like to imply that all sailboats not having (some) side tanks are to be considered lethal monsters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post



    Boats that require excessive dewatering are an unaffordable luxury when people sail in confined spaces.

    That is a lot of water in a Lymington Scow that has side tanks. Do they always come up as full as this? If so, that is no good if you are out in the open Solent.

  4. #144
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
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    Dorset, UK
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Ross

    Not in a dinghy. Can you believe I took my chances on a 7 ton Alden ketch (Nic 38) no less without an ounce of buoyancy beyond her saloon cushions! This was before recent Chinese export goods expansion, so things were a bit quieter but before AIS. We couldn't see for mist. The live AIS radar now shows alot of channel shipping running at 10-15 knots in both directions. It is frankly an enormous deterrent, even if it is a help. Would it be possible in a dinghy...sure, but unwise at this end in any boat without a diesel in mid summer. The French authorities would not be pleased to see me in a small boat either: the French have very different perception of social freedom than us.

    Joost,

    There's something being lost in translation. Regarding your previous comments that side tanks add weight...the vertical and horizontal tank sides reduce the unsupported plank distances, increase bilge stiffness (useful on a beach boat) and stop the hull twisting and pumping so you can consider reducing scantlings from 9 to 6mm to cover the extra material typically 4mm and cost. I accept you can't go below 6mm in a light 10-15ft boat size but you can take the added strength and stiffness. If the sailing's boring those rascals have been known to bucket water in to try and sink them, pull them over infront of the ferry etc, just for kicks. It's usually less than that on the new ones.

    The current 'rig de jour' for a truely committed jihadist: the lug yawl requires 8 spars on board to make it go if we include those long oars. We are upto 9 if he plans to show off with his yuloh in harbour. Given the bilge sleeping preference in narrow aft double enders (the Hvalsoe 'It's Even Greater Tern' 18 excepted) - the structural arrangement of a small ring tank would enable the immediate sub gunwale deck space to be open to provide more off site space for these smaller types.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 02-09-2018 at 10:43 AM.

  5. #145
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    Apr 2017
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    Decatur, Georgia, USA
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    209

    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    [snip] on re-righting:

    Attachment 10601

    [snip]
    Tom, all I'm getting here is a link to "Attachment 10601" and, upon clicking through, a forum message about an invalid attachment...
    Meanwhile, back at the thread...

  6. #146
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Only one day off a week and no holidays explains a lot.

  7. #147
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    Dec 2004
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    vancouver, british columbia
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    I built an Alaska and sailed it for hundreds of miles. It had a sleeping platform at thwart level. In our Salish Sea anchorages we frequently get wind waves or refracted swell or both. In those conditions, the platform is hard to sleep on, as the boat rocks and you are above the roll centre. It is, as James has put it, like trying to sleep atop a beach ball.
    There may be more at play here than meets the eye and I think the only way to put this to rest is to have James sleep with me on my Alaska. Now that might be awkward, partly because if he's right he'd have to admit we 'rocked' together all night long, and if he's wrong we may wake up spooning. Either way, I don't like the odds...

  8. #148
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    northwestern Wisconsin
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    2,898

    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Noto View Post
    Tom, all I'm getting here is a link to "Attachment 10601" and, upon clicking through, a forum message about an invalid attachment...
    Thanks--that has been happening occasionally when I use the Forum procedure for posting photos. It looks fine when I first post, and then it shows up with the attachment link later on. Does anyone know how to avoid this problem? It's a bit annoying.

    I think the image is restored from that post now--if not, imagine an Alaska floating upside-down with its mast stuck in the sandy bottom of the lake.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by darroch View Post
    There may be more at play here than meets the eye and I think the only way to put this to rest is to have James sleep with me on my Alaska.. . .
    Hey, I believe firmly in the utility of empirical experimentation, so I’m game to try. I just gotta warn you though, since moving to live at the equator, my blood is much thinner and I get cold much easier. So if we’re gonna do this, I will expect to SNUGGLE!

  10. #150
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    Apr 2010
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    Fairfield, CA
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    Default

    This shows the overwhelming superiority of Walkabout. There's only room for one on the sole, so no danger of finding a snuggly McMullen in your boat in the morning.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by rgthom; 02-10-2018 at 11:20 AM.

  11. #151
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    vancouver, british columbia
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Hey, I believe firmly in the utility of empirical experimentation, so I’m game to try. I just gotta warn you though, since moving to live at the equator, my blood is much thinner and I get cold much easier. So if we’re gonna do this, I will expect to SNUGGLE!
    And I will expect a non-disclosure agreement. This is way outside my comfort zone.

  12. #152
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    This shows the overwhelming superiority of Walkabout. There's only room for one on the sole, so no danger of finding a snuggly McMullen in your boat in the morning.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    You owe me a cup of tea.......fortunately the laptop survived the spraying.

  13. #153
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    Apr 2007
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    Singapore
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    You guys need to learn to think out of the box. Clearly there’s room for more than one if you stack ‘em vertically. For gosh sakes! Prob’ly warmer that way, too.
    Last edited by James McMullen; 02-10-2018 at 06:49 PM.

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Edward,
    The local vet's daughter, aged 14, crossed from IOW to Cherbourg last year, in an Optimist no less. Father was not far away in something a tad bigger, looking out for the ships etc. But she did it without help. Lotta bailing, but managed slightly over 4kts.

    Someone should ban MukMullen, that has put me off breakfast
    Last edited by Andrew2; 02-11-2018 at 04:16 AM. Reason: Clarity and attempt at humoor

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    Edward,
    The local vet's daughter, aged 14, crossed from IOW to Cherbourg last year, in an Optimist no less. Father was not far away in something a tad bigger, looking out for the ships etc. But she did it without help. Lotta bailing, but managed slightly over 4kts.
    Andrew,

    Our UK Coastguard says, understandably dinghies should cross to France with an Escort boat. Basically so you can manouver in a flat calm or deal with breakages etc.

    Flat calm's mid channel in the shipping traffic would be a distinct possibility as you would time it for a long mid summer day to get maximum daylight, probably around mid solstice neaps to reduce cross tide affects on the boat and water, and during a settled high pressure to have an ensured weather window. That sets up sea breezes that drag air upto the British and French coast, and would be the dominant wind, which can leave a mid channel divergence zone, and a flat calm right when you need to move accross the lanes. I remember one chap in a dinghy getting picked up a few years ago because of that.

    There isn't a divergence zone that establishes at the eastern Dover-Calais end, and it's alot shorter distance and the French sea breezes drags more along shore at that location. Good on that little girl. I guess Dad was her escort boat and could have easily pulled it aboard. A long way in an Oppi!
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 02-15-2018 at 07:50 AM.

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