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Thread: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by BOI View Post
    All of the responses so far about how interior layout relates to camping and other comforts have been totally interesting, but none have addressed the "spiritedness" of the sailing. If you are worried about capsize recovery I imagine you envision pushing the envelope a bit. Does either of these boats come close to planing? Which one would be faster and which one might have a higher likelihood of capsize?

    Could one get the mast down in the Phoenix 3 when really needed, in conditions where one barely dares to kneel to shift around in the boat? If so, how do you deal with a thwart in the way? Would it be any easier in the Walkabout?
    I do not intend on pushing the envelope. I will always try my best to go out in favorable conditions but I always like to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I want to know that I can recover the boat in the event of a capsize easily and practice this skill plenty but hope that I never have to. Also I want to know that the boat can handle rougher conditions but hope I don't have to test this out on a crossing.

    In terms of the spirited sailing aspect, this is my somewhat unrealistic desire for a boat that can do it all (doesn't exist I know). It would be great to have a boat that has a bit of speed and is fun to sail for when I'm fooling around close to home but could also be sailed more conservatively when reefed and cruising longer distances.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    OP,
    I would go with a slightly larger boat and something that provides better protection from the elements. Something along the lines of Chesapeake Light Craft's Faering Cruiser. Performance in rough water will be better and you would be more comfortsble and safer.

    It's only 500lb so even the smallest car could pull it. Even a motorcycle or lawn tractor could do it.
    Yes that's true and the Faering is a cool design! I don't think I've seen that one before. I also like CLC's PocketShip.
    I'm trying to avoid a boat that I need to trailer and take to the boat ramp. I live in quite a populated region (Vancouver area) and the boat ramps are getting pretty crazy. I've been down to the lake in the summer (canoeing) and have seen lineups that would have taken people at least an hour to get their boat in the water. Add to this the fact that you often have to pay for launching and parking. There's also the added storage of having a larger boat on a trailer.

    The simplicity of launching a dinghy from a trolley appeals to me as well as the fact that this could provide me with a gentle introduction to cruising. I think all of the skills (navigation, chart reading, radio communication, reading weather, trimming sails, etc.) would transfer over if I decide to get (or build) a bigger boat in the future.
    Last edited by altabb; 01-29-2018 at 01:42 PM.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    To stretch the Walkabout just meant multiplying all the lengthwise dimensions by the stretch factor (1.08 in my case). That included building jig, station spacing, and stem dimensions. I would check with Ross on this, also whether to stretch the daggerboard and case, and what effect on the sail dimensions (if any). The planks were going to need two scarfs already at 16.5 feet, so no difference going to 18 for me.
    Let me amplify on my previous response from posting the stretch question on Ross's Facebook page (that's how he touches his builder community). Ross said that for the 1 foot stretch I asked about, he would leave the centerboard size and placement the same (since a proportional stretch doesn't change the mast position or sail CE). He also suggested the sail area need not increase either. My notes list the sail area of the lug rig at 76 sq. ft., pretty substantial even for a skinny 16' unballasted boat.

    To add to what Tom and rgthom have written about a stretch, you increase the length without changing the shape of the molds, stem or transom. As rgthom says, you increase the spacing equally (say 8%) between each building mold/ bulkhead as well as the stem and transom locations. In practice this means that you can build the boat exactly as indicated on the plans except for the increased spacing.

    I downloaded free study plans for the Phoenix III from Ross's web site, http://baysidewoodenboats.com.au . That said, I just looked and couldn't find the link for study plans on the current version of the site.

    My preference for stretching a Phoenix III vs the 17' x 5'2" Periwinkle is that I think P III's beam and displacement are just right for my sail & oar goals. I'm older and less fit than a lot of our brawny young Sail & Oar Turks, so light weight is also way up on my priority list. My understanding is that Periwinkle was designed to be higher performance under sail. And the cat ketch rig isn't my cup of tea.

    Cheers, Dan

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by BOI View Post
    All of the responses so far about how interior layout relates to camping and other comforts have been totally interesting, but none have addressed the "spiritedness" of the sailing. If you are worried about capsize recovery I imagine you envision pushing the envelope a bit. Does either of these boats come close to planing? Which one would be faster and which one might have a higher likelihood of capsize?
    I haven't sailed a Walkabout, but I think it's about as capable as a light sail-and-oar boat can get.

    I do know from firsthand experience that it is EXTREMELY difficult to capsize a Phoenix III. When my brother and I did our capsize tests on a 15-20 knot day (small lake so no waves), it took both of us (400+ pounds) leaning way over to leeward on a beam reach, for a sustained long time (5-6 seconds) before we finally got it to go over. While any unballasted dinghy can be capsized, especially in large or breaking waves, the Phoenix III gives the helmsman a long time to react. Rather than capsizing, the rocker and hull shape conspire to force it to head up instead. I'm very confident that the Phoenix III can handle anything I'd dare to try. And as noted earlier, it's very easy to recover from a capsize if the worst happens.

    I'll add that I think the earlier post suggesting a lack of ability to handle rough conditions in a Phoenix III is probably not informed by actual experience aboard--it really is a most capable little boat. Even sailing solo, I've never felt the need to hike out on the side deck in high winds. I've also done a 10-mile crossing downwind, where the wavetops were well above my head. I was scared. The boat didn't seem to notice.

    Quote Originally Posted by BOI View Post
    Could one get the mast down in the Phoenix 3 when really needed, in conditions where one barely dares to kneel to shift around in the boat? If so, how do you deal with a thwart in the way? Would it be any easier in the Walkabout?
    If conditions are that bad, they're going to be bad in any boat. The trick is to reduce sail and/or get to shelter before it gets that bad.

    The worst I experienced was a sudden squall during the Everglades Challenge. High winds hit while the unreefed sail was still up, and before the accompanying waves arrived. Our GPS briefly hit 13.2 (mph, I think) before I managed to leap forward and drop the sail, at which point we sailed along quite happily under bare pole at 3 knots. I didn't even notice the thwart in the way, as I was too busy being terrified. Which turned out to be unneccessary, as the boat handled it just fine.

    Tom
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  5. #40
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Has anyone weighed their Phoenix III?
    How much can a boat trolley carry on sand?

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Interesting to hear. I'm not targeting you, Rob, just using your post to address some of the issues you raise from the perspective of someone who has spent a lot of time cruising a Phoenix III.

    I love Walkabout myself, but I can tell you that the interior of the Phoenix III works perfectly for cruising solo or two-up. Really, there is nothing I could imagine changing--and this after thousands of miles cruising in my brother's Phoenix III. For its size, it's as close to sail-and-oar perfection as I think you can get. I would not change anything about it at all.



    Some might say "over-lauded." Don't forget that a mizzen adds complexities (e.g. the Walkabout's steering hook-up, or the necessity of a push-pull tiller or hooped tiller--I love the direct linkage a conventional tiller provides, and wouldn't want to give it up) in many boats. There's also extra costs for the sail and rig. And I have sailed many many miles without a mizzen and have rarely drowned.



    Ah, I can see you have not spent time aboard a Phoenix III. The perfect ergonomics of the layout is one of the many features I admire. Walkabout, too, is great, I suspect. But not clearly better. As for keeping off the floor, that's one thing the Phoenix III does for you without the need to sling a hammock.



    Phoenix III has a large sealed compartment in the bow, and a medium one in the stern. But really, I find it far more convenient to keep my gear in large dry bags alongside the centerboard case--all the gear can then be carried ashore in one fell swoop if need be. No digging through compartments to find things.



    I agree 100%. One thought: if I were 6' 5", I'd seriously consider a stretched Walkabout at 18', which has been done successfully. I have no idea if Ross Lillistone would be open to a slightly stretched Phoenix III, but another 12" wouldn't hurt for such a tall guy. I'm 6' 2" and it's comfy sleeping aboard for me, but there's not a lot of extra room.

    Tom
    The maximum "stretch" for a Walkabout is 12.5%, Chuck Leinweber built his at that, and ran it very successfully in the Everglades Challenge. He rated it as the "fastest monohull" he'd ever sailed. That probably says a bit about his lack of time in bigger high performance boats but she did perform very well in comparison to the other boats in the event.
    I note a comment about filleting stringers adding to the build time, thats not neccessary or even desirable.
    The other point I'd make is about righting the boat after a capsize, Walkabout comes up very easily and with little water on board, she can be sailed away without having to bail her out.
    Drop the mast at sea? I cant imagine the conditions that would require that, the boat is plenty stable with the sails down, and if it gets really stinky the crew should lie down in the sleeping space and wait it out.

    Tom, thanks for your objective input here.

    John Welsford.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    I've een Rick's Walkabout a number of times and I have to say that the design is the best I've ever seen if you plan to row and sail...as opposed to sail and row. If you want to sail, but row a lot and maybe a bit more rowing than sailing, it's pretty hard to go wrong with a Walkabout.

    Also, Walkabout is the smartest boat EVER for camping aboard, rowing a lot, sailing a lot, but not carrying around a big cabin.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    http://rosslillistonewoodenboat.blog...inkle.html?m=1
    B4C48280-A0C2-483F-B850-8F557584240E.jpg
    I have enjoyed this thread. It is good to read the different positive attributes and experiences with these two designs. I just want to add for the record that the Periwinkle is already designed for at least 3 different rigs. With an array of other options.

    FA7BEDF6-6EDB-4634-9AEB-2BC85AF03AFF.jpg
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    You might also want to consider Eric Hvalsoe's Hvalsoe 18. Ticks all of your boxes except low weight (probably 400-ish lbs without internal ballast) lbs. You can see what the first one built looks like in this thread.

    Start at about page 26 of the thread to see the finished boat and follow the thread to see how it was built.

    It's a very capable boat that sails very well and rows well too. I sailed and rowed alongside it during a 300 nm trip in 2016.
    Last edited by AJZimm; 01-29-2018 at 05:28 PM. Reason: error correction
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    For Salish Sea cruising with its predictably unpredictable and fickle weather and huge stretches with no possible chance to come to shore to straighten out your boat, you will want a mizzen. The local sail & oar jihad haven’t all converged on similar solutions because of some weird club pact, you know. It also makes your boat tent more convenient and allows you to swing to the weather instead of just the tidal currents. And if you have plans to include some fishing or crabbing duties into your mix, the mizzen with a well-forward fores’l is super-super convenient compared to having no place to stand without a boom in your way.

    I would happily use a Phoenix III for daysailing or inland sailing, but I wouldn’t even consider it for Gulf Islands multi-day adventures. Of your list, the Walkabout is a better fit for the purpose here.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Oh goody, James is back and on his favorite topic...


  12. #47
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    If you want to see how a couple of boats designed for the kind of cruising you say you want to do, including the Hvalsoe 18 mentioned above, perform over a five week cruise on the BC Coast, read this thread.
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by altabb View Post
    The basic criteria (not in order of importance) are:
    1. Low Weight
    I'd like to be able to handle this boat on a launching trolley and be able to walk about a block from a property my parents own to the water.
    Phoenix III is advertised as 132 lbs.
    Walkabout is advertised at around 200 lbs.

    I always say go bigger and go heavier for this area but that's not what he wants.

  14. #49
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    Default

    I know a number of reasons to be able to quickly and easily lower and raise the mast from a dinghy cruiser while underway...most do not have to do with heavy weather...



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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    John Hartman is right.

    Chief among the reasons for wanting to drop your masts on the Salish Sea is that you will get many days where there is no wind at all and you will find yourself rowing all day. In those circumstances, you want to reduce windage by any means that you can, so the ability to drop the rig is important.
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    I know a number of reasons to be able to quickly and easily lower and raise the mast from a dinghy cruiser while underway...most do not have to do with heavy weather...



    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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  17. #52

    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by altabb View Post
    Hi Tom,

    Do you happen to know the dimensions of the sleeping area? By this I mean the distance between the thwart and the bulkhead at the stern. If this is over 6'5" the phoenix III will probably work for me.
    Thanks, everyone, for a great discussion.

    I just went out to the shop and measured. On my nearly complete PIII, the distance between the spot where the centerboard trunk meets the thwart and the rear bulkhead is 6'3".

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    I know the discussion has centered around the PIII and the Walkabout, and I'm sorry to muddy the waters, but I'll throw in another possibility. I looked at both of these among many others but finally settled on the Campion Apple 16. My criteria was almost identical to yours including body dimensions. I'm also 6'5" and ended up choosing the Campion because the designer (Tom Dunderdale) had a bunch of standard layouts that would accommodate me sleeping, it was light, the planing hull looked fast, and I just liked the lines.

    Of course I haven't launched yet, so you can take everything with a grain of salt, but I've spent a year building this and talked with several owners who heartily endorse the boat. Ask me at the end of the summer and I'll be able to give a complete review. I've been documenting the build (see blog link in signature line), and the designer's website is at http://www.campionboats.co.uk/details.html


  19. #54
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Morgan View Post
    Thanks, everyone, for a great discussion.

    I just went out to the shop and measured. On my nearly complete PIII, the distance between the spot where the centerboard trunk meets the thwart and the rear bulkhead is 6'3".
    Thanks for measuring that Chris. Looks like I may want to stretch the Phoenix or go for the walkabout. Although if I rested my head on the sloping centreboard case I may have enough room.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by galleywench View Post
    I know the discussion has centered around the PIII and the Walkabout, and I'm sorry to muddy the waters, but I'll throw in another possibility. I looked at both of these among many others but finally settled on the Campion Apple 16.
    No worries I was actually hoping to entice other suggestions with the 'OR ???' in the title. I'll be sure to check out that design.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    I would happily use a Phoenix III for daysailing or inland sailing, but I wouldn’t even consider it for Gulf Islands multi-day adventures. Of your list, the Walkabout is a better fit for the purpose here.
    Thanks for the input. Could you expand a bit on your preference for the walkabout in terms of seaworthiness? Also I'm happy to have met someone who has experience sailing open boats in Salish sea. I am trying to read between the lines a bit here but do you feel that neither of these boats (Phoenix III, Walkabout) are suitable for this task?

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by altabb View Post
    Thanks for measuring that Chris. Looks like I may want to stretch the Phoenix or go for the walkabout. Although if I rested my head on the sloping centreboard case I may have enough room.
    And again, you will have more space if you use a sleeping pad that elevates you a bit higher on the slope of the CB case. My super luxurious 3" thermarest (stows easily in the forward tank) probably gives me another 2 or 3 inches of berth length.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by darroch View Post
    Phoenix III is advertised as 132 lbs.
    Walkabout is advertised at around 200 lbs.

    I always say go bigger and go heavier for this area but that's not what he wants.
    Through some correspondence with Ross Lillistone I discovered that the bare hull weight of Phoenix III is closer to 165 pounds. He informed me that it is listed incorrectly in some places.

    Can I confirm what you mean by 'area'? Do you mean the Salish Sea?

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by altabb View Post
    Through some correspondence with Ross Lillistone I discovered that the bare hull weight of Phoenix III is closer to 165 pounds. He informed me that it is listed incorrectly in some places.

    Can I confirm what you mean by 'area'? Do you mean the Salish Sea?
    Yes, I do, but it's just personal preference. I like the motion of a heavier boat. I like the versatility of a split rig. I like the roominess at anchor. I like the fact that I can have two anchors and hundreds of feet of rode and that I have crouching headroom, a wet locker, a galley, and a head. Exactly what you want, only bigger and heavier. And more complicated to build. And more expensive.

    BUT you certainly could put a shelter on a Phoenix III and have some adventures. Even an awning to cook under and a bivy shelter to sleep in, either on the boat or on land. You should build the boat you are drawn to, though, I think, above all else. Maybe it's just the first...

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by darroch View Post
    Yes, I do, but it's just personal preference. I like the motion of a heavier boat. I like the versatility of a split rig. I like the roominess at anchor. I like the fact that I can have two anchors and hundreds of feet of rode and that I have crouching headroom, a wet locker, a galley, and a head. Exactly what you want, only bigger and heavier. And more complicated to build. And more expensive.

    BUT you certainly could put a shelter on a Phoenix III and have some adventures. Even an awning to cook under and a bivy shelter to sleep in, either on the boat or on land. You should build the boat you are drawn to, though, I think, above all else. Maybe it's just the first...
    Yes I am certainly a minimalist. One of my hobbies is long distance backpacking so I'm used to packing very light and sleeping in less than ideal situations. Whenever I'm in a boat (canoe mostly) and don't have to carry things on my back I feel very spoiled. Thanks for the vote of confidence. This will be my first sailboat build but I have built a stitch and glue canoe.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by altabb View Post
    Yes I am certainly a minimalist. One of my hobbies is long distance backpacking so I'm used to packing very light and sleeping in less than ideal situations. Whenever I'm in a boat (canoe mostly) and don't have to carry things on my back I feel very spoiled. Thanks for the vote of confidence. This will be my first sailboat build but I have built a stitch and glue canoe.
    My first foray into sailing was to build a 50 sq ft lateen rig for a 17' Kevlar Hellman canoe. I got the plans from a little booklet called Sail Your Canoe or something. It had dual leeboards. It was great for crossing the lake but my wife didn't like it - she had to have her elbow in the water to windward to keep it from going over.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    I too am drawn to minimalism—or maybe more of a “do the most with the least” sort of ethic, but I think that for truly minimal cruising in the Salish Sea what you want is a kayak, not a small dinghy. The minute you decide to add sailing as a substantial part of the mix, then a bigger, longer, heavier boat offers tremendous rewards in these tidal-current dominated waters. Then your limiter is how big of a boat you can comfortably row all day in the rain. A bigger boat will allow you the opportunity of screwing up your timing going through Dodd Narrows, hitting the rip off Saturna, or crossing Haro Strait with less chance of ending up on the evening news. It will definitely be a more comfortable ride through the chowder than an over-light boat as well as being more restful to sleep aboard. And yet you can still haul it up on shore or beach whenever you need to.

    Mind you, this is for cruising. A light dinghy is awfully fun for short-term sailing. But just like a twitchy triathlon bike is no fun for bicycle touring, too small a boat can be too tiring after you’ve been cold and wet for enough hours or days in a row. A bigger boat can offer a nice cushion of safety when you’re too sore and ravenous and hypothermic to pay as close attention to your sailing as you might have.


    I think you ought to see if you can look up Alex or Tim or Eric and see their boats in person before you make a decision.

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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    For Salish Sea cruising with its predictably unpredictable and fickle weather and huge stretches with no possible chance to come to shore to straighten out your boat, you will want a mizzen. The local sail & oar jihad haven’t all converged on similar solutions because of some weird club pact, you know. It also makes your boat tent more convenient and allows you to swing to the weather instead of just the tidal currents.
    James,

    that bit about tidal currents at anchor is probably obvious to you. As a Great Lakes sailor, I never really thought about. But it makes perfect sense. You and I really don't need the same thing from our boats.

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    I would happily use a Phoenix III for daysailing or inland sailing, but I wouldn’t even consider it for Gulf Islands multi-day adventures.
    Is there anything besides the use of a mizzen that makes you think this way? Your statement seems to be suggesting a Phoenix III wouldn't be capable enough. I suspect it's just that your preferences (informed by experience) are so strong. I for one would happily make my Gulf Islands debut in a Phoenix III.

    Tom
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    www.tompamperin.com

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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Morgan View Post
    I just went out to the shop and measured. On my nearly complete PIII, the distance between the spot where the centerboard trunk meets the thwart and the rear bulkhead is 6'3".
    Beat me to it!

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by altabb View Post
    Thanks for measuring that Chris. Looks like I may want to stretch the Phoenix or go for the walkabout. Although if I rested my head on the sloping centreboard case I may have enough room.
    If you lie diagonally, you'd have several more inches of length as well. It's comfy that way, as well. But I think a slightly stretched Phoenix III with no other changes would be groovy.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by darroch View Post
    Yes, I do, but it's just personal preference. I like the motion of a heavier boat. I like the versatility of a split rig. I like the roominess at anchor. I like the fact that I can have two anchors and hundreds of feet of rode and that I have crouching headroom, a wet locker, a galley, and a head. Exactly what you want, only bigger and heavier. And more complicated to build. And more expensive.
    Rod,

    this is an interesting post. Having now spent a summer with some cruising side-by-side with a Phoenix III and my Alaska, I'm interested in the comparisons.

    At 18' vs. 15' 1", Alaska is the "bigger" boat. However, beam is virtually identical. And I have found that usable interior space is also virtually identical (but of course I have a sealed buoyancy chamber where you have an anchor well, so that's not an entirely fair comparison). I know the Salish Sea folks think longer bigger boats bring advantages, but volume-wise, Alaska is not appreciably bigger other than length. Alaska is probably 200 pounds heavier than a Phoenix III. I would expect launching a Phoenix III from a hand trolley to be workable. I wouldn't want to try it with an Alaska, not alone anyway.

    Anyway, you already said all this much more concisely: "Exactly what you want, only bigger and heavier. And more complicated to build." (I don't think my Alaska was much more expensive than my brother's Phoenix III--maybe $500 not counting the sail).

    Phoenix III has slightly higher freeboard, and side decks. Both boats are easily rightable by a solo sailor after a capsize. If either has a SLIGHT edge in seaworthiness, I'd say it's the Phoenix III--but that is perhaps mostly because I've cruised a Phoenix III for years, and have only been sailing my Alaska for one summer.

    For the OP's stated purpose of hand launching, I think Phoenix III is without a doubt the better choice. Performance-wise, the two boats are very similar based on my experience so far.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  32. #67
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    vancouver, british columbia
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Tom - Alan is really only interested in either Walkabout or Phoenix III or very similar designs. Maybe we should start a new thread comparing Alaska and Phoenix III? It might be an interesting discussion.

  33. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Walkabout and Phoenix are mighty fine apples. Either boat you'd be lucky to own and use. In the short term, we're all dead, so just get out there! This is a first world problem. But for your length and weight you'd be better off lying in the bottom of Walkabout than higher on the thwarts of Phoenix in a cross sea. If your lying to anchor repeatedly, a mizzen will be usefull and in some instances worth the trouble, though a small boat with a mizzen is usually slower to tack, makes more leeway and will be slower in all conditions especially light air. Its also more in materials, and puts the main mast closer to the bow which is a worse position and forward of most coamings.

    From reports over the last 10 years on this forum, it's faster under oar than the others. The foredeck, side deck, aft deck and side tanks make it more seaworthy than most. From a knockdown Walkabout will be sailing again quicker than Phoenix because of the side tanks. Combined with a narrow waterline beam, an optimum solo waterline length and optimum oarlock half beam, a higher aspect foil, you won't find a better more complete light weight trolley'able sail and oar boat design.

    Regarding Walkabout's stringers, the reinforcement provided to the laps, will make it a 'stronger boat'. Glue lap is strong enough though, but in practice it might be on a beach surf landing when it all goes wrong, where you broach finding the waves bigger than expected and the boat rolls around in the beach break that it might make a difference. They are mostly hidden anyway. The tapered rockered bottom panel does save alot of weight and fabrication of the keelson and keel, but it might have a greater heave motion compared to a V bottom Ness Yawl, but given how long, narrow and rockered it also is, I think it might only be a marginal loss, for considerable construction efficiency gain in time, materials and a flat floor.

    While the construction method of a Welsford suits beginners, it actually also suits experienced people, who can see its advantages and want to procure a good boat quickly. Its also less demanding of having wood working machinery to hand. For others like Tom, a Phoenix would be a better and proven boat, but I think at 6'5"/100kg the open sleeping floorspace arrangement on Walkabout would be a gift. Ergonomically given your greater fore and aft reach a boat half beam a bit more than 5' for fixed seat rowing would actually be slightly superior. Its calculable but would have to dig the equation out.

  34. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    northwestern Wisconsin
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    3,718

    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Good points in post #68. But this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    ...for your length and weight you'd be better off lying in the bottom of Walkabout than higher on the thwarts of Phoenix in a cross sea.
    I'm not so sure about that. That may be because in my Great Lakes cruising, I am nearly always anchored in such tight sheltered spaces that I'm never in any kind of seas at all. But I am 6' 2", 220 lbs, so not far off in size and weight to the OP.

    But the platform works well--arguably better than the sole in some ways. First, the Phoenix III is designed to keep the sleeper's weight low enough in the boat that it actually adds stability. People who have not tried out a properly designed platform like this probably have difficulty believing it can be comfortable and non-rocky. But in my experience, it is.

    Second, a platform keeps you out of the bilge, dry and comfy even if a little water gets on board.

    I'm also curious about this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    ...puts the main mast closer to the bow which is a worse position and forward of most coamings.
    How is a mast closer to the bow worse? That's an honest question, not an attempt at arguing the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    From a knockdown Walkabout will be sailing again quicker than Phoenix because of the side tanks.
    This is probably true. It took about 10 minutes of bailing to get a Phoenix III dry after capsizing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    While the construction method of a Welsford suits beginners...
    True. In fact, the stringers completely eliminate the need to scarph planks, which can seem like an intimidating proposition to first-time builders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    For others like Tom, a Phoenix would be a better and proven boat


    I'd hate to see this proposition stand untested. I think in the interests of accuracy, someone should build me a Walkabout to compare to my time in a Phoenix III! I honestly don't know which boat I think is "better."

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
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    Zbigit
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    1,183

    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    The "low bridge" point, for being able to drop the stick quickly is a good one. That said, a carbon fiber mast doesn't weigh a lot and can be pretty skinny - meaning not a lot of windage. Admmittedly, there's still some windage.

    Just to mess with everybody in the thread, I'm going to present a glass boat that proposes a completely different way of doing what I think you want to do.

    http://rowandsail.liteboat.fr/


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