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Thread: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

  1. #1
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    Default Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Hello All,

    I just joined the forum but have been reading with great interest on and off for quite some time now.

    I'd like to get some advice on design choice for a cruising dinghy I will be building.
    The basic criteria (not in order of importance) are:
    1. Low Weight
    I'd like to be able to handle this boat on a launching trolley and be able to walk about a block from a property my parents own to the water.
    2. Sleeping aboard
    I'd like this to be as comfortable as possible. I'd also like it to be comfortable to cook a meal, enjoy a coffee, or just relax in while waiting out some rain perhaps. I should also mention here that I'm a tall guy. 6'5" and 210 pounds.
    3. Seaworthy
    I will be sailing in mostly sheltered waters (Gulf Islands of BC) but would like to mitigate the risk of capsize during a crossing. Also if I happen to get caught in some borderline conditions I'd like the boat to be able to handle it (within reason of course)
    4. Relatively Easy capsize recovery
    5. Sailing Performance
    I believe some people use the phrase 'spirited sailing'. Sailing the boat should be fun.
    6. Simple Rig
    I like the idea of being able to set up the boat within minutes.
    7. Sailed primarily solo. Having room for two for a day sail or a weekend would be great but not too important.
    8. Good rowing ability
    I want this to be a sailboat first and rowboat second. I anticipate doing a lot of rowing in this boat when there is no wind. I will likely never use an outboard with this boat.

    So far I have landed on either a Ross Lillistone Phoenix III or John Welsford's Walkabout. If any owners of these boats could comment on how they might fit my criteria I'd really appreciate it. If you have another boat you think would fit bill I'd be happy to hear about that as well.

    Thanks!

    Alan
    Last edited by altabb; 01-27-2018 at 09:25 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    I can definitely see your problem in picking one of them... I have a Walkabout and it fits your criteria perfectly, however I think PIII does as well. So the choice may come down to which one you like the looks of best and perhaps build time (took me about 700h to build the walkabout)

    /Anders

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Is Welsford's Long Steps too big? I ask because you put a priority on safety and capsize recovery. Long Steps has a self draining cockpit, among other features that suit your wishes. It may also suit your height better. Otherwise I agree with the view that it's a tossup.

    BTW, I have very similar requirements for my next boat and am going in a different direction, giving up long-range rowing for the comfort and security of a well ballasted boat and a dry cabin. But I won't put a motor on it. CLC's Autumn Leaves.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    I own plans for the walkabout. I want one, still. For Me, she gets the nod over the Phoenix as a “cruising” boat because of the rig and interior.
    The mizzen, for example, is highly lauded by small boat cruisers as a handy, even necessary (?) sail for cruising safely in all conditions.
    The interior of the walkabout, too, allows for easier sprawling and living. I had thought it would be nice to have a hammock slung in the sleeping slot to keep one off the floor...
    Also, I think the walkabout has more secure and sealed storage. I know the model is recoverable in a capsize. Matpybe Not is large seas...

    Tough choice, and I really don’t think you could go wrong, either way.

    Peace,
    Robert
    Last edited by amish rob; 01-28-2018 at 11:45 AM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Is Welsford's Long Steps too big? I ask because you put a priority on safety and capsize recovery. Long Steps has a self draining cockpit, among other features that suit your wishes. It may also suit your height better. Otherwise I agree with the view that it's a tossup.

    BTW, I have very similar requirements for my next boat and am going in a different direction, giving up long-range rowing for the comfort and security of a well ballasted boat and a dry cabin. But I won't put a motor on it. CLC's Autumn Leaves.
    I am very excited to see your new boat, too!

    Peace,
    Robert

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    I own plans for the walkabout. I want one, still. For Me, she gets the nod over the Phoenix as a “cruising” boat because of the rig and interior.
    Interesting to hear. I'm not targeting you, Rob, just using your post to address some of the issues you raise from the perspective of someone who has spent a lot of time cruising a Phoenix III.

    I love Walkabout myself, but I can tell you that the interior of the Phoenix III works perfectly for cruising solo or two-up. Really, there is nothing I could imagine changing--and this after thousands of miles cruising in my brother's Phoenix III. For its size, it's as close to sail-and-oar perfection as I think you can get. I would not change anything about it at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    The mizzen, for example, is highly lauded by small boat cruisers as a handy, even necessary (?) sail for cruising safely in all conditions.
    Some might say "over-lauded." Don't forget that a mizzen adds complexities (e.g. the Walkabout's steering hook-up, or the necessity of a push-pull tiller or hooped tiller--I love the direct linkage a conventional tiller provides, and wouldn't want to give it up) in many boats. There's also extra costs for the sail and rig. And I have sailed many many miles without a mizzen and have rarely drowned.

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    The interior of the walkabout, too, allows for easier sprawling and living. I had thought it would be nice to have a ya mock sl8ng in the sleeping slot to keep one off the floor...
    Ah, I can see you have not spent time aboard a Phoenix III. The perfect ergonomics of the layout is one of the many features I admire. Walkabout, too, is great, I suspect. But not clearly better. As for keeping off the floor, that's one thing the Phoenix III does for you without the need to sling a hammock.

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Also, I think the walkabout has more secure and sealed storage. I know the model is recoverable in a capsize. Maybe Not in large seas...
    Phoenix III has a large sealed compartment in the bow, and a medium one in the stern. But really, I find it far more convenient to keep my gear in large dry bags alongside the centerboard case--all the gear can then be carried ashore in one fell swoop if need be. No digging through compartments to find things.

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Tough choice, and I really don’t think you could go wrong, either way.
    I agree 100%. One thought: if I were 6' 5", I'd seriously consider a stretched Walkabout at 18', which has been done successfully. I have no idea if Ross Lillistone would be open to a slightly stretched Phoenix III, but another 12" wouldn't hurt for such a tall guy. I'm 6' 2" and it's comfy sleeping aboard for me, but there's not a lot of extra room.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Interesting to hear. I'm not targeting you, Rob, just using your post to address some of the issues you raise from the perspective of someone who has spent a lot of time cruising a Phoenix III.

    I love Walkabout myself, but I can tell you that the interior of the Phoenix III works perfectly for cruising solo or two-up. Really, there is nothing I could imagine changing--and this after thousands of miles cruising in my brother's Phoenix III. For its size, it's as close to sail-and-oar perfection as I think you can get. I would not change anything about it at all.



    Some might say "over-lauded." Don't forget that a mizzen adds complexities (e.g. the Walkabout's steering hook-up, or the necessity of a push-pull tiller or hooped tiller--I love the direct linkage a conventional tiller provides, and wouldn't want to give it up) in many boats. There's also extra costs for the sail and rig. And I have sailed many many miles without a mizzen and have rarely drowned.



    Ah, I can see you have not spent time aboard a Phoenix III. The perfect ergonomics of the layout is one of the many features I admire. Walkabout, too, is great, I suspect. But not clearly better. As for keeping off the floor, that's one thing the Phoenix III does for you without the need to sling a hammock.



    Phoenix III has a large sealed compartment in the bow, and a medium one in the stern. But really, I find it far more convenient to keep my gear in large dry bags alongside the centerboard case--all the gear can then be carried ashore in one fell swoop if need be. No digging through compartments to find things.



    I agree 100%. One thought: if I were 6' 5", I'd seriously consider a stretched Walkabout at 18', which has been done successfully. I have no idea if Ross Lillistone would be open to a slightly stretched Phoenix III, but another 12" wouldn't hurt for such a tall guy. I'm 6' 2" and it's comfy sleeping aboard for me, but there's not a lot of extra room.

    Tom
    I am also tall.

    No, I’ve never been in either boat, but I’d rather have an open interior with benches either side than thwarts and a trunk in the middle of everything.
    To me, sitting inside a walkabout after a day’s sailing would be more pleasant than sitting amidst thwarts, and trunks.

    As to the mizzen, I am only reporting what experienced sailors here have shared as their druthers for sailing small open boats in all conditions. The inclusion of a mizzen seems to be universally accepted as making small boats more capable in all conditions.
    I don’t know this, because I am a terrible and chicken-hearted sailor, but I do rely on the related experience of others here to inform me.
    Of course a mizzen isn’t necessary, but it does make certain maneuvers possible, like heaving to.

    You say the walkabout interior is clearly not better than the pIII. That is a judgement call. For me, The interior of one IS better.

    As to sealed compartments, I know a guy who’s capsized his walkabout and reboarded with minimal water inside. I have no knowledge of a capsized pIII, but I imagine she’d scoop up a bit of water. Maybe even float too low to reboard until bailed? Pure conjecture on my part.

    The boats are horses for courses. For general use, I’d pick a pIII, but we’re I cruising, I’d choose the boat designed for it.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Interesting to hear. I'm not targeting you, Rob, just using your post to address some of the issues you raise from the perspective of someone who has spent a lot of time cruising a Phoenix III.

    ...

    One thought: if I were 6' 5", I'd seriously consider a stretched Walkabout at 18', which has been done successfully. I have no idea if Ross Lillistone would be open to a slightly stretched Phoenix III, but another 12" wouldn't hurt for such a tall guy. I'm 6' 2" and it's comfy sleeping aboard for me, but there's not a lot of extra room.

    Tom
    i asked this question six months ago on Facebook and Ross Lillistone said a 5-10% stretch to gain cockpit room would be fine without any adjustments to the build, no reservations at all.

    In build simplicity I will put in a vote for the Phoenix III, which I have not built but compared carefully to Walkabout and other designs. Walkabout has stringers which require lots of filleting, while P III relies on the glued lap structure and strategically placed bulkheads. John Welsford has said the stringers are there to make construction easier for the novice. By the way I understand the Phoenix III is around 25 lbs lighter than a Walkabout.

    Cheers, Dan

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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Too big by far, alas, recalling this:

    Quote Originally Posted by altabb View Post
    1. Low Weight
    I'd like to be able to handle this boat on a launching trolley and be able to walk about a block from a property my parents own to the water.
    FYI, my brother and I were able to roll the Phoenix III (fully loaded for cruising two people) on a cheap set of wheels for the 1/4-mile portage of the inside route of the Everglades Challenge, from Whitewater Bay into the Flamingo checkpoint. With a better-designed trolley, I think a hand launching cart would be feasible. Perhaps not easy, especially rolling over sand, but possible.

    My vague impression, having really only seen a couple of Walkabouts in real life, is that Walkabout is probably heavier than the Phoenix III, if only for the permanent stringers with each plank. But then there's the mizzen, and more built-in furniture. I'm not sure if that rules it out for hand launching--any Walkabout sailors able to address that?

    Tom
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    I'm 6/4' and have a stretched 18' Walkabout. It's used as a row-cruiser so I can't answer all the sailing questions, but have a few thoughts:

    1) The build packet has hand drawings and a building guide of a few pages. As a first time builder I was able to construct the boat, but there was a lot of internet consulting and learn as you go. I have heard that Lillistone provides a more complete package of documents.

    2) The stringers and built in compartments add some weight. I have heard that the boat has been built without stringers, I would probably do that if building again. I've made a trolley and used it a few times, but now have a light aluminum trailer and use that as the trolley.

    3) You have rowing low on your list, but it rows very well. I have entered open water rowing races against more traditional rowing designs, and at least not come in last.

    4) For simplicity, Welsford has drawn an alternate rig with a single balanced lug similar to PIII. The mast step is moved back to the next bulkhead, and it uses the 100 sq ft SCAMP sail. It looks like this:



    My boat has the mast step here, but other than playing around with a downwind sail it's not been tested.



    5) I personally really like the open center. It's nice when on a long row to stand up and walk up and down to stretch. Sleeping on the sole is very comfortable.



    6) The side seats have limited storage. The space inside is small, and hatches on the inside edge are not very useful. I put bigger hatches on top.

    7) If you are on the Salish Sea you probably want some kind of tent for the rain. I'm sure that is do-able on either boat, but the coaming on Walkabout made a nice attachment for a fully enclosed cover.

    That's all I've got for now.

    Rick

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    The boats are horses for courses. For general use, I’d pick a pIII, but we’re I cruising, I’d choose the boat designed for it.
    They are horses for courses there as well--Phoenix III was designed for cruising, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    No, I’ve never been in either boat, but I’d rather have an open interior with benches either side than thwarts and a trunk in the middle of everything.
    To me, sitting inside a walkabout after a day’s sailing would be more pleasant than sitting amidst thwarts, and trunks.
    Rob, I think you're seeing something on paper that doesn't really exist in 3D with the interior comfort of the Phoenix III. I think of the "cockpit" of the Phoenix III as the space between the rowing thwart and stern seat. That area is exactly the kind of "open interior with benches" that you prefer. It's extremely comfortable indeed. Walkabout also looks good, but I think there is probably less athwartwhips legroom in Walkabout because instead of benches with room under, the seats are sealed compartments.

    Here's the best shot I have handy showing the typical seating position in the PIII cockpit:

    DSCF8287.jpg

    From here I can slide quite a bit farther forward, up to the aft edge of the rowing thwart near amidships to keep weight forward for beating. I don't really see how it's different from an open exterior with benches--it IS an open interior with benches.

    The rowing thwart is a wide, comfy seat as well, where it's easy to lean against the sloping rear side of the centerboard case (with a cushion) for a backrest, with feet on a bench or stern seat. Here's what it looks like in use:

    DSCF7938.jpg

    Forward of the rowing thwart is the "cargo hold" where I keep a large drybag on each side of the centerboard case. Notice that on the starboard side, the dry bag slides under the rowing thwart, keeping lots of room open to reach the mast when you need to:

    DSCF8138.jpg

    Notice also what a handy chart table the rowing thwart makes. (I use a strap over the thwart to hold the chart down in the wind).

    Basically I find that all the "living" that goes on in the boat while cruising happens in the "cockpit" area, which means the board isn't in the way at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Of course a mizzen isn’t necessary, but it does make certain maneuvers possible, like heaving to.
    Yep, that's absolutely true. A mizzen also adds costs and complications. Whether the trade-off is worth it depends on the individual sailor. After 10 years of small boat cruising, I haven't found a mizzen necessary. But I respect others who make the opposite choice, too.

    FWIW, it's easy enough to "park" most boats with a single balance lug rig simply by letting the sheet fly. In that case, the Phoenix III sits quietly almost broadside to the waves with the sail weathercocking into the wind. Certainly not a maneuver for extreme circumstances, but an easy way to take a break in normal conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    You say the walkabout interior is clearly not better than the pIII. That is a judgement call. For me, The interior of one IS better.
    Actually, I said the Walkabout interior is NOT clearly better; I didn't say it's clearly NOT better. I think both layouts work well. But I'd encourage you to try them both out before you make up your mind. Judgment based on experience is better than judgment based on conjecture. Come on out to Wisconsin and I can get you some tiller time!

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    As to sealed compartments, I know a guy who’s capsized his walkabout and reboarded with minimal water inside. I have no knowledge of a capsized pIII, but I imagine she’d scoop up a bit of water. Maybe even float too low to reboard until bailed? Pure conjecture on my part.
    The Phoenix III's ability to recover from a capsize singlehandedly is one of the things that impresses me most about the design, actually. My brother and I did some pretty extensive capsize testing in 15-20 knots (no waves to speak of on the small lake). No tendency to turtle because of the wooden spars. A simple tug on the gunwale will roll it up. It does scoop a fair amount of water, filling to just under the thwart level. But because of the centerboard design, the centerboard top rises far above the thwart at its forward end, meaning the water level says way below the board, allowing for successful bailing. It took me exactly 100 scoops with a 3-gallon bucket to empty the boat, which was stable enough to reboard and bail from within without problems.

    I suspect Walkabout and Phoenix III are both excellent candidates for successful capsize recovery, with Walkabout taking on less water because of the sealed benches (which limit legroom--another trade-off).

    Anyway, both are great boats, I think. I do think a tall guy should think seriously about stretching either one, though.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 01-28-2018 at 02:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Invalid attachments, Tom. I'd like to see those interior pictures, if you could fix that.

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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    A problem with the flat sole on Walkabout is that there is no low point for rain or spray to settle and be pumped out. I use sponges and an absorbent sheet, not too bad but would prefer to drain with a few strokes on a pump. Does PIII drain to a low point?

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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Arrgh! I will try again--not sure why they didn't work.
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    A problem with the flat sole on Walkabout is that there is no low point for rain or spray to settle and be pumped out. I use sponges and an absorbent sheet, not too bad but would prefer to drain with a few strokes on a pump. Does PIII drain to a low point?
    Not really. With a solo sailor at the helm, the water tends to collect along the keel in the center area of the cockpit, where it's easy reach for sponging/bailing. Storing dry bags up front tends to trap a little water up in the "cargo hold" as well, which you can't really reach until unloading for the night.

    But a hand-scoop bailer and large sponge is all we use (also the aforementioned bucket)--we've never had a pump, or felt the need for one.

    This is probably less of a problem in use in a Phoenix III, though, where you are sleeping on a platform, well above any water that gets in:

    DSCF7435.jpg

    (I admire your tent; on this trip, mine was a feebly improvised tarp which nevertheless kept me dry).

    Sitting headroom:

    DSCF7442.jpg

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 01-28-2018 at 02:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    The pictures on the earlier post are now good, this last one still gives me: "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    All right, sorry to take up so much room on this thread. A couple more interior shots of the Phoenix III:

    DSCF7349.jpg

    I'd guess the Phoenix III and Walkabout "cockpit" areas are pretty close to equal--rgthom, what is Walkabout's beam? Phoenix III is 4' 8" to the outside of the wide gunwale, I think; maybe 4' 6" interior. The difference is that Walkabout's cockpit goes on for the entire length of the boat, pretty much. The Phoenix III's open cockpit ends at the rowing thwart.

    DSCF7531.jpg

    It was a lot easier to roll the boat up onto the beach AFTER emptying everything out--which storing the gear in two large bags (rather than inside sealed compartments) makes pretty easy. I've cruised both ways and MUCH prefer the dry bags for stowing gear. Which also limits the amount of water you can take on in a capsize, too.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 01-28-2018 at 02:57 PM.
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Just a couple more comments, now I see Tom's setup. (Walkabout beam is slightly wider, 60" outside)

    Walkabout's offset daggerboard (or centerboard) keeps the entire center open. Not sure how valuable that is, but it is a difference.

    You could do a similar seat top sleeping platform for Walkabout. I made one for sleeping two aboard, but prefer on the sole when solo.


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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Thanks for the pictures of your boat. It does look like Walkabout has wider seats; that may be more comfortable for some people.

    Impressive that Walkabout achieves such good rowing performance with such a (relatively) wide beam. What length oars do you use?

    Another thought: at $12 per hatch or so, side benches vs. compartments start to look pretty good! I had the same experience in my Alaska, which has lots of sealed compartments requiring lots of expensive hatches.

    Do you have a centerboard or daggerboard, or no boards at all on your rowing-only Walkabout? I can't remember. I have seen Walkabouts with the offset daggerboard, and it seems like it would really get in the way of the side seating on one side, with the top of the case extending well above the seat. That alone would make me opt for a centerboard (which I'd prefer anyway for various reasons).

    Thanks! These are two of my all-time favorite designs.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Mine has slide seat, 9' 6" sculling oars, and no lateral board (been playing with a leeboard, eek!). The OP wants to sail, so this is no interest to him.

    The daggerboard trunk does not interfere with the standard fixed seat rowing, this is Wayne Jorgensen's boat:



    The one side of the side seat next to the rowing thwart would not be usable, but that's it.

    Thinking about the build again, I expect PIII would be the easier build. Just the coaming on Walkabout took a lot of head scratching and trials. Welsford shows the coaming on the drawing, but how to implement it is up to the builder. I even opted for a simpler coaming, not the all-round curved one in the drawing (which Wayne did build).

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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    BTW, I have very similar requirements for my next boat and am going in a different direction, giving up long-range rowing for the comfort and security of a well ballasted boat and a dry cabin. But I won't put a motor on it. CLC's Autumn Leaves.
    Dave,

    do you have plans for Autumn Leaves already? Have you started a build? I really really like the look of that boat--not sure exactly why, but I like it a lot. (Hint: I'd like to see photos of your build!)

    Alright--thread drift complete. Sorry.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Hi Tom,

    Do you happen to know the dimensions of the sleeping area? By this I mean the distance between the thwart and the bulkhead at the stern. If this is over 6'5" the phoenix III will probably work for me.

    Thanks,

    Alan

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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Thank you everybody for your great and detailed responses as well as the photos. I think I am leaning towards Phoenix III because of the reduced weight. It's also great to know that the general consensus seems to be that Phoenix III is also a simpler build. I just need to confirm the dimensions of the sleeping area. If its more than 6'5" I suspect that this boat would work well for me.

    I'm also intrigued by a stretch of the boat. Is this difficult to do? It would be great to increase the length by that small amount and potentially make it more comfortable for myself.

    I also have quite a detailed question that I hope I can articulate well in the written word. I am wondering about the headroom of any sort of tent set up in the Phoenix III. Presumably in the walkabout there is ample height for sitting as your are sitting in the bottom of the boat. In the Phoenix III you would be sitting on the sleeping platform. My hope is that I can simply raise the yard to my desired height (high enough to sit up comfortably), use a crutch at the stern and set up a tarp over this setup. Please let me know if this seems like a feasible setup.

    -Alan
    Last edited by altabb; 01-28-2018 at 09:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by altabb View Post
    Hi Tom,

    Do you happen to know the dimensions of the sleeping area? By this I mean the distance between the thwart and the bulkhead at the stern. If this is over 6'5" the phoenix III will probably work for me.
    Alan,

    I'll ask my brother for a measurement--might take a day or two. But I'm 6' 2" and usually lean a cushion against the sloping aft side of the centerboard case, with my shoulders on the thwart, and my feet reach almost to the stern bulkhead. I don't remember feeling like I had a lot of extra room, in other words. I think in your case I'd probably stretch the boat (cockpit) out a bit by changing the spacing on the bulkheads--even a 6" stretch would be more than enough, and would keep total length to around 15' 7.5".

    But I'll post a measurement here when I get it.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by altabb View Post
    I'm also intrigued by a stretch of the boat. Is this difficult to do? It would be great to increase the length by that small amount and potentially make it more comfortable for myself.
    I suspect all it would mean would be spacing the bulkheads a bit farther apart than stated in the plans--a previous post suggested Ross already ok'ed this. It would probably also mean you'd need two scarph joints per plank, as two sheets of plywood would not quite be long enough. Check with Ross and he'll tell you how it could best be done, I bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by altabb View Post
    Presumably in the walkabout there is ample height for sitting as your are sitting in the bottom of the boat. In the Phoenix III you would be sitting on the sleeping platform. My hope is that I can simply raise the lug (is that what it's called?) to my desired height (high enough to sit up comfortably), use a crutch at the stern and set up a tarp over this setup. Please let me know if this seems like a feasible setup.
    That seems perfectly possible (the spar of a lugsail is called a "yard," which I think is what you mean). I have generally used a ridge line instead, running from mast to rudder head. You can put it as high up the mast as you want, although the headroom decreases as you go farther aft. If you need more headroom at the stern, you could rig a short upright of some kind to run the line to.

    Your method of using the yard as a ridge pole might be a bit more complicated, but might pay off by getting the sail bundle out of your way. Of course, you'd then need to raise the tent that much higher to fit the sail bundle in and still have centerline headroom... And the yard is not long enough to run the entire length of the cockpit, either--not sure how much that matters.

    Here's a photo of my hastily improvised but workable "tent":

    DSCF7345.jpg

    Looks very open in front, but kept me dry despite some very rainy days (one entire day spent aboard reading under the tent) with just a 5' x 8' tarp I had handy:

    DSCF7346.jpg

    I think I'd use some kind of arches next time--maybe tent poles set into the oarlocks--to give a little more side-to-side room for optimal comfort; otherwise the headroom zone is a little narrow. An actual custom-fitted tent would be better but more work--probably worth it, except that these days I'm sailing my Alaska so I'll leave that to my brother.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    To stretch the Walkabout just meant multiplying all the lengthwise dimensions by the stretch factor (1.08 in my case). That included building jig, station spacing, and stem dimensions. I would check with Ross on this, also whether to stretch the daggerboard and case, and what effect on the sail dimensions (if any). The planks were going to need two scarfs already at 16.5 feet, so no difference going to 18 for me.

    For the tent, I made a mockup with tent poles and sheets, and crawled around in it to make sure it would work.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    https://www.duckworksbbs.com/product...iwinkle-id.htm

    What about Periwinkle? Seems the stretch has been done. She looks as lovely as the PIII.

    To be clear, too, I would only choose the walkabout over pIII if cruising were the priority. I think the pIII is probably a better all around boat, you know?

    And to be perfectly clear, I’d love to own EITHER boat.

    Peace,
    Or That Autumn Leaves...

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    https://www.duckworksbbs.com/product...iwinkle-id.htm

    What about Periwinkle? Seems the stretch has been done. She looks as lovely as the PIII.

    To be clear, too, I would only choose the walkabout over pIII if cruising were the priority. I think the pIII is probably a better all around boat, you know?

    And to be perfectly clear, I’d love to own EITHER boat.

    Peace,
    Or That Autumn Leaves...
    Well, that is nice! Looks perfect for the brief, and has a choice of rigs.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Dave,

    do you have plans for Autumn Leaves already? Have you started a build? I really really like the look of that boat--not sure exactly why, but I like it a lot. (Hint: I'd like to see photos of your build!)

    Alright--thread drift complete. Sorry.

    Tom
    John has agreed to draw a balanced lug yawl version of the boat for me. I have the study plans, still waiting for the revised version of the full set. The main mast will be in a tabernacle for ducking under low bridges and quick set-up, not to mention brainless and lazy tacking. The build thread will start when I have the plans and kit and the weather warms some here in Pennsylvania.
    -Dave

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    OP,
    I would go with a slightly larger boat and something that provides better protection from the elements. Something along the lines of Chesapeake Light Craft's Faering Cruiser. Performance in rough water will be better and you would be more comfortsble and safer.

    It's only 500lb so even the smallest car could pull it. Even a motorcycle or lawn tractor could do it.
    Last edited by navydog; 01-29-2018 at 12:07 AM.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    https://www.duckworksbbs.com/product...iwinkle-id.htm

    What about Periwinkle? Seems the stretch has been done. She looks as lovely as the PIII.
    Yes the Periwinkle does look quite nice. As the weight is not listed I don't know but suspect that she is quite a bit heavier than the Phoenix III. Also the double mast may add some complexity to setup. If anyone does know the weight of a Periwinkle please let me know.

    I am leaning towards Phoenix III at the moment. I'm waiting on Tom to graciously send me the length of the sleeping area. If its not enough perhaps I can stretch the Phoenix III as described. If all else fails I think the Walkabout could be a great boat for me. Not sure why (must be the aesthetics of the boat) but I really want the Phoenix III to work out.

    -Alan

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    I love Periwinkle, but it is a significantly bigger, beamier, and heavier boat than the Phoenix III. And twice the cost for sails!

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Quote Originally Posted by altabb View Post
    Yes the Periwinkle does look quite nice. As the weight is not listed I don't know but suspect that she is quite a bit heavier than the Phoenix III. Also the double mast may add some complexity to setup. If anyone does know the weight of a Periwinkle please let me know.

    I am leaning towards Phoenix III at the moment. I'm waiting on Tom to graciously send me the length of the sleeping area. If its not enough perhaps I can stretch the Phoenix III as described. If all else fails I think the Walkabout could be a great boat for me. Not sure why (must be the aesthetics of the boat) but I really want the Phoenix III to work out.

    -Alan
    I am 6'-4" and can very comfortably sleep on the thwart-level platform in my Phoenix III. The platform is 32" wide, and I do sleep on a slight diagonal but don't really need to. I have an extra-thick sleeping pad and it lifts me enough to take trigonometric advantage of the forward slant of the CB case. It's pretty unobtrusive if you can deal with the hardship of a 3" thermarest!. Like Tom, I also put a pillow forward. My feet are just touching the rear bulkhead, which isn't uncomfortable for me and provides handy bracing if a lobster boat wake hits while I'm in the berth. I'll also try to take a measurement for you as well the next time I uncover the boat.

    No experience with Walkabout, but the Phoenix III has been a great solo cruiser for me.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    To be clear, I only suggested Periwinkle because of all the talk of stretching PIII. Better to build the larger boat than stretch one.

    Have fun, whatever you end up deciding to build.

    Peace,
    Robert

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Phoenix III OR Walkabout OR ???

    Long ago I've camp cruised in the Gulf Islands and around Gibson by kayak but I've never sailed a small boat. The idea of sail and oar cruising appeals to me though, so I'm reading this with interest. If the following derails the thread too much, please let me know and I'll start my own.

    Someone on this forum mentioned that "in the (15') Skerry or any small boat of that size sailing is a fine line between boredom and terror".

    All of the responses so far about how interior layout relates to camping and other comforts have been totally interesting, but none have addressed the "spiritedness" of the sailing. If you are worried about capsize recovery I imagine you envision pushing the envelope a bit. Does either of these boats come close to planing? Which one would be faster and which one might have a higher likelihood of capsize?

    Could one get the mast down in the Phoenix 3 when really needed, in conditions where one barely dares to kneel to shift around in the boat? If so, how do you deal with a thwart in the way? Would it be any easier in the Walkabout?

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