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Thread: Advanced Balanced Lug Sailing Techniques

  1. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
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    278

    Default Re: Advanced Balanced Lug Sailing Techniques

    "There are many sailors at the bottom of the sea that are smarter than you or I"

  2. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
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    278

    Default Re: Advanced Balanced Lug Sailing Techniques

    "There are many sailors at the bottom of the sea that are smarter than you or I"

  3. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
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    278

    Default Re: Advanced Balanced Lug Sailing Techniques

    Looks like I may have made a productive change. Originally I had the boat rigged so that the bad tack of the mizzen sprit boom was opposite of the bad tack of the main boom. My thinking was that by having the bad tacks of each sail opposite each other, it would neutralize or minimize the effects.

    I decided to change it up and put the bad tack of the mizzen on the same side as the bad tack of the main.

    With 20knots and sloppy 1-2’ seas I had good conditions to test it out. I had the main double reefed for the conditions. I noticed an immediate difference. On the good tack of the main (boom not interfering) the boat pointed 45 deg. On the bad tack of the main the boat pointed 50-55 degs. The boat averaged 100 degrees between tacks. This was a significant improvement.

    So, before the change, I had better performance to windward (45 degs) when the bad tack of the main was coupled with the good tack of the mizzen. With the good tack of the main coupled bad tack of the mizzen my windward performance was a crappy 70 degs.

    Now I have the mizzen sprit boom rigged so that it’s bad tack is the same side as the mains bad tack. Now on the main’s good tack, the boat went 45 degs to winward and on the mains bad tack the boat went 55 degs to windward.

    It still seems that my balanced lug does go to windward better on its bad tack, having the ability to compensate better for the poor tack of the mizzen, at least when I’m on the tiller.

    As this is my first Yawl, I still have a lot to learn sailing with a mizzen.
    "There are many sailors at the bottom of the sea that are smarter than you or I"

  4. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Salt Lake City, Utah
    Posts
    42

    Default Re: Advanced Balanced Lug Sailing Techniques

    Deke, Great aerial videos of your boat sailing. What type of drone and camera system do you use?

  5. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    278

    Default Re: Advanced Balanced Lug Sailing Techniques

    I’m not sure, it was a friends drone. He flew it off my center console and followed me around while I was sailing.
    "There are many sailors at the bottom of the sea that are smarter than you or I"

  6. #41
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    603

    Default Re: Advanced Balanced Lug Sailing Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    2 thoughts, for what they may be worth.

    It seems to me that if the boat end of your sheet is attached on the centreline of the boat, then you are more closely sheeted on one tack than the other. At the mast your sail is offset maybe 3 inches to one side. I think that makes for a 6 inch difference in sheeting angles between tacks. I wonder if that accounts for the difference in performance?
    That might well be the cause. I have mused about this quite a bit.

    We have now over 40 Oz Geese in the Philippines, almost all of which spend some time racing and a core of about 12 spend a lot of time racing. As well as other sailing too of course

    The traditionally viewed "bad tack", with the sail pressing on the mast, is the fast tack.

    Good feel, boat just wants to go fast, foots well, can be pinched.

    The supposed "good tack" - the boats feels wishy washy, there is no clear groove to steer to, pinch and the board stalls out (The boards are quite big and CNC milled, or very accurately handmade)

    So we use the speed of the faster tack as the guide for the slow tack and make sure we foot more or less that fast. Get the right sound from the hull and general feel of speed/pace.

    The other good sailor has his sail on the opposite side to the rest of the fleet - which we have standardised so that it is less confusing for beginners.

    I have passed him upwind and he has passed me - on both tacks. It seems quite possible to get a speed break regardless of whether your sail is to windward or leeward of the mast. It is a feel issue.

    Other reasons for the assumption that the boat is slower with the mast to leeward of sail have come to mind are that
    1/ the mast partially supports the luff so it doesn't sag - a saggy luff is very slow. That's also a positive argument for spectra. If it stretches you just won't have your normal speed and height. It is possible to gain a little something downwind in light and moderate.
    2/ the support of the mast for the sail also makes the luff stable - even if it is tight. I'm wondering if this is the cause of the vague ungrooved feeling of the boat with the sail to leeward tack.

    I really don't know where the "bad tack" was defined. It is really interesting that it is wrong - for many boats at least

    A couple of tips that may or may not be relevant,

    On most of the boats in the Goose fleet we have a simple straight traveller which gets the sheeting angle to the normal dinghy mean of around 10 degrees (for the front sail on most dinghies). With mainsheet tension in it is possible to narrow the sheeting angle of the sail to windward on the fast tack by just pulling the sliding block up a 4 to 6 inches to get a bit more pointing. Sometimes it is possible in flat water on the slow tack. Easy to reach on the 4ft wide goose.

    It depends a bit on the boat (John's boats are normally set up on paper with a fair bit more weather helm than mine - no criticism implied or intended but they should be less prone to this point about sail depth
    ), but if the sail is loose footed it makes a lot of sense to carry depth right to the bottom. Sometimes when the boat won't point this is an important one. It dials in a bit more weather helm and also gives more low down grunt so that waves don't slow the boat too much (we are relatively blunt ). This is also not uncommon in general cat rigged racing classes. A too tight foot can be make or break in many cat rigged classes.

    Goose tacking angle relative to the wind based on GPS tracks is a bit more than 45 degrees, maybe 50 or a shade over but as this includes leeway it looks quite OK for a normal sailing dinghy - not near the very best dinghies and probably a shade lower than average. But we cost less than their rudderblades.

    If a particular boat is not pointing I would look at more depth in the bottom of the main, trimming the mizzen for a bit more weather helm and having a good look at the centreboard shaping and finish.

    Also make sure the outboard or well aperture is not dragging in the water and crew is not sitting too far back. There is a lot of lift from the deeper forefoot of John's designs so sit to get the boat onto its design waterline.

    Photo loose footed main at about the right depth. And judging by the wind on the water badly oversheeted or pointing too low. It is certainly not uncommon for sailors to be out by a bit.



    Beyond that it might be worth fitting a couple of telltales to the head of the sail just above mast height about 30 to 40 percent back from the luff and three equally spaced leach ribbons. Could be a pure sail trim or steering issue and that is the fastest way of providing feedback to the person steering.

    Best wishes
    Michael
    Last edited by Boatmik; 03-14-2018 at 01:00 AM.

  7. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    603

    Default Re: Advanced Balanced Lug Sailing Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by deke View Post
    So, before the change, I had better performance to windward (45 degs) when the bad tack of the main was coupled with the good tack of the mizzen. With the good tack of the main coupled bad tack of the mizzen my windward performance was a crappy 70 degs.
    Well done!

    Keep going, there are lots of increments available.

    MIK

  8. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    northeast Ohio
    Posts
    1,655

    Default Re: Advanced Balanced Lug Sailing Techniques

    suscribed

  9. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    603

    Default Re: Advanced Balanced Lug Sailing Techniques

    A combo article has gone up on my website with some useful tips from Chuck Pierce, a well known Texas distance sailor.

    This article is based on his personal comments.
    https://www.storerboatplans.com/tuni...lug-rig-foils/



    This year's Texas 200 mile event was particular tough with winds over 30kn. Chuck has been gradually modifying his Michalak Mayfly 14.

    Some good examples of how performance oriented gear (I don't mean expensive - just set up nicely) works for a more cruising oriented approach when conditions get bad.

    I've put in a bunch of links for generally useful stuff in the article. (It is also pointing at our sails but Chuck was using a polytarp sail of some age previously and his boat already had standout capability - so more about the setup than the sail).

    Best wishes
    Michael

  10. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    12

    Default Re: Advanced Balanced Lug Sailing Techniques

    Hello,
    the hull of my JW Pathfinder is nearly complete, (see facebook JW group)
    now it is time to order the sail,
    deke, are you happy with the sail size and position of the reef rows?

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