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Thread: Split in the mast

  1. #1
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    Default Split in the mast

    I was looking over the mast for my geep (GP14) before arranging to hang it from the rafters of my basement. I noticed an almost foot long split at the top. I am thinking some tickened epoxy and clamps to repair it, but I am open to suggestions.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Photos.
    We do not know if it is solid or hollow.
    Split or checked.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Photos.
    We do not know if it is solid or hollow.
    Split or checked.
    Or if it is a failed glue line. How old is it?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    I will take pictures today after I get it in my basement. It's solid and was made in 1964. At least the tip is solid, I find it interesting it has a built in sail track, not sure if carved in, or glued on later

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    I will take pictures today after I get it in my basement. It's solid and was made in 1964. At least the tip is solid, I find it interesting it has a built in sail track, not sure if carved in, or glued on later
    Look for a glue line in the front, opposite the luff groove. Luff groves were normally routered in to the two halves of a spar before they were glued together.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Also - at that vintage, it's quite possible that plastic resin glue was used, while can go granular and fail after 50-60 years, and the failure you're seeing is just the start of systemic.

    We'll hopefully know more when we see some fotos.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Waiting for a photo. Meanwhile, if it proves to be the old, crystallized Weldwood glue in the seam, I would reef out the crack using a hack saw blade with an end made into a hook that is sharpened on the end at the hole, The hole makes the inner part of the hook. Using this blade hook out the old glue. Or, a small Japanese saw, known as an Azibiki, can also be used and is even better.
    Once clean, fill the crack with G/flex epoxy, cover the area with wax paper and wrap same with flat rubber banding made of old bicycle inner tubing. Better is the flat rubber made for powering model airplanes. This material is sold at any length and will do a good job for you.
    Jay

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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Waiting for a photo. Meanwhile, if it proves to be the old, crystallized Weldwood glue in the seam, I would reef out the crack using a hack saw blade with an end made into a hook that is sharpened on the end at the hole, The hole makes the inner part of the hook. Using this blade hook out the old glue. Or, a small Japanese saw, known as an Azibiki, can also be used and is even better.
    Once clean, fill the crack with G/flex epoxy, cover the area with wax paper and wrap same with flat rubber banding made of old bicycle inner tubing. Better is the flat rubber made for powering model airplanes. This material is sold at any length and will do a good job for you.
    Jay
    Ha! Funny. I take old “ten speed” tubes, the narrow, high pressure jobs, and cut off the valves, then I use them for clamping straps.
    Your post made me feel both slightly innovative and not as weird.

    Peace,
    Robert

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Necessity is the mother grabber of invention!
    Jay

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    here we go.. pictures. Some outside, excuse the snow, I got my Geep home JUST before the nasty weather arrived.

    The Crack does appear to originate in the Sail Track, but down the middle of it. I am also thinking this 22 foot long mast must be hollow, even though the bottom appears not to be, I can lift it easily with one hand, something I cannot say for the 25 foot aluminum mast my other boat has
    t6TiMkc.jpg
    8q1bR9f.jpg
    LnS4eYd.jpg

    tQxz1tf.jpg

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    That is glue line failure.
    Jay in post #7 nails it, but . . .

    I would strip all the fittings off (You will be re-varnishing any way) and see if you can cause the split to open further by gently levering with a strong knife to test the strength of the rest of the glue line.
    If the glue is failed there, it could be on its last legs everywhere. If it does show signs of failing, I would dismantle the mast as it will be easier to clean up the glueing faces when it is in bits.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    thankyou, I guess I know what I am doing later when it gets a bit warmer in the basement.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Yup I duz concour. Take it apart 100 percent . Fab up a flat area. Let the epoxy cartoons begin!
    That is a cool lookin box for the sheave !
    I see at least one decent joist if to need to canablize yer house .
    bruce

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    well, at least I may have enough clamps to glue it back together

    OyAcqhg.jpg
    t0nFYIw.jpg
    I am thinking the aluminum disk on top of the mast might have been for some long gone windex

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    I would split it completely into two pieces, plane it clean, restore and revarnish the luff groove, then glue it back together with epoxy.

    (I once glued a mast up by wrapping it tightly round and round with an air hose, securing the ends and then plugging it in.
    This was not an original idea, it was suggested by a man who used a water hose in the same way!)

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Looks like that heavy halyard combined with the headboard plus the shieve box may have levered your stick apart. I would strip the hardware off the mast head, remove the sieve box and "carefully" abrade the two faying surfaces of the glue joint, as I described previously. A sanding stick made of steel banding with 80 grit paper glued to it will allow you to sand the old glue off. Glue with the G/flex. Wrap with inner tube strips. They are better than the clamps as they give all encompassing even pressure. If out side, build a water proof tent over the joint and rig a heating pad or some other heating source that will maintain a temperature of sixty degrees for, at least five hours. This should produce a joint that will work fine as long as the heat is constant and moisture is not in the joint. If indeed the rest of the glue is ready to let go, go sailing and it will tell you if it is time to repair by splitting and re-gluing the entire mast. Go simple first, get complicated later!
    I wish you good fortune with the project. Use the 50/50 G/flex kit and stick to the ratio of the two parts. Heat is your friend for this! 60deg.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 01-10-2018 at 08:57 PM.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    I would opt for trying to split the mast right apart if it comes apart peacefully it becomes a fairly simple job. I have done a similar job and found the the biggest problem was where a previous owner had tried a partial repair and that bit of glue didn't want to let go - that caused more damage.

    Mike

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    [QUOTE=Art Haberland;5445533]well, at least I may have enough clamps to glue it back together

    OyAcqhg.jpg
    t0nFYIw.jpg
    I am thinking the aluminum disk on top of the mast might have been for some long gone windex[/QUOT

    No such thing as enough clamps. Any time, ever. ...

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    I would use a hand saw and saw it right down the glue joint as I placed wedges in the seam behind the saw. This way if some glue happens to stick it wont split out the side or pull a huge piece out of the joint. The saw kerf isn't very wide and and with a jack or jointer plane you can prepare it for re-gluing. Just make certain your saw is in good shape and cuts straight. You can reduce the kerf a bit by honing the saw teeth on each side with a whet stone.
    Last edited by navydog; 01-11-2018 at 12:11 PM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    I would use a hand saw and saw it right down the glue joint as I placed wedges in the seam behind the saw. This way if some glue happens to stick it wont split out the side or pull a huge piece out of the joint. The saw kerf isn't very wide and and with a jack or jointer plane you can prepare it for re-gluing. Just make certain your saw is in good shape and cuts straight. You can reduce the kerf a bit by honing the saw teeth on each side with a whet stone.
    I would use one of these, I think that it will give a thinner kerf.
    https://www.workshopheaven.com/shogu...al-kataba.html
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    They're ok, but I'd just use the saw I like to use the most. A smooth kerf is preferable and it's a good reason to hone the teeth on side a little bit and clean up any burs.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Here are a few examples of the Japanese "Azebiki" saw. They will automatically follow the glue line, if you choose to open the mast and re-glue the whole works!
    They are capable of starting a cut in the middle of a plank and were first used for flooring work. The smallest saw is used for bamboo cutting work. Note that the saws have both rip and cross cut teeth.
    Jay

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Jay, what is the magic of those saws that they want to follow the glue line more than another type of saw?

    Jeff

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Cutting glue does not bugger up the sharpness ?

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Cutting glue does not bugger up the sharpness ?
    Probably but all cutting tools get dull when you use them. Either resharpen them yourself or send them out. Sometimes finding a good saw sharpening shop isn't easy though. Not many debur the teeth so they will cut smoothly. Hand filing does a better job but like everything else doing things by hand isn't common.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    Jay, what is the magic of those saws that they want to follow the glue line more than another type of saw?

    Jeff
    I think those paticular saws would be difficult to use for this purpose because the blade is short and will pass through the seam on the bottom as the saw pulls through. On the down stroke it probably won't line up into the Kerf. A longer blade that won't leave the piece is required.
    Last edited by navydog; 01-11-2018 at 05:22 PM.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    I could sacrifice one of my regular Japanese pull saws for the work, something long enough to do the work. I have one I rarely use because I rather dislike due to how it feels when cutting. I would not mind dulling it and getting rid of it to get my mast into A1 shape again.

    But first I need to finish the CLC expedition Wherry I have sitting as a pile of lumber.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That is glue line failure.
    Jay in post #7 nails it, but . . .

    I would strip all the fittings off (You will be re-varnishing any way) and see if you can cause the split to open further by gently levering with a strong knife to test the strength of the rest of the glue line.
    If the glue is failed there, it could be on its last legs everywhere. If it does show signs of failing, I would dismantle the mast as it will be easier to clean up the glueing faces when it is in bits.
    That would be my thought. I hate taking the chance of half-doing a fix, only to need to redo the other half before long.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Id be inclined to dismantle the mast anyway. If its glue failure then it stands to reason that the rest of the glue will fail anyway. With the mast apart you can inspect for other problems.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Split in the mast

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    Jay, what is the magic of those saws that they want to follow the glue line more than another type of saw?

    Jeff
    First you must understand the nature of how such a tool works by using and living with it for a while. I have been using Japanese tools for nearly fifty years now and find that in, most instances, they work better than our Western tools do. They are like an extension of my mind rather than a hand held tool that I work with. They may look weird but they are extrememly ergonomic! Because the blades are hand scraped to a slight hour glass shaped in cross section and are, also, thinner at the tip than at the heel as they tend to follow a path of least resistance. That would be the delaminated seam crack itself. The profile of these saws is a belly shape so that only two or three teeth are in contact with the work at any one time. This reduces friction on the cutting stroke. The trick in using them is to allow the saw to "float" in the kerf while allowing the blade to track
    in the slot. Very little downward pressure needs to be applied. In fact pressing consciously pressing down on the handle can cause the blade to run off course!

    Another advantage of the Azebiki Saw is that it can be started in the center of a plank and open its own kerf if necessary. These saws were developed for laying flooring in traditional Japanese houses. They are made of tripple laminated hand forged white steel and are tempered to have a state of tension within the blade to resist kinking. The teeth are flame tempered as well. I do send my saws out for sharpening as the cross cut teeth are double facet beveled which requires a very talented saw filer to do a good job on them. A good saw sharpening lasts me about a year.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 01-15-2018 at 05:02 PM.

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