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Thread: David Brook's latesr

  1. #1
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    Default David Brook's latesr

    Lots of folks on this forum should read this one carefully. It applies to many of us, to varying degrees.

    The Decline of Anti-Trumpism https://a.msn.com/r/2/BBI8voY?m=en-us&a=1

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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    Not bad at all:

    This isnít just a struggle over a president. Itís a struggle over what rules weíre going to play by after Trump. Are we all going to descend permanently into the Trump standard of acceptable behavior? Or, are we going to restore the distinction between excellence and mediocrity, truth and a lie? Are we going to insist on the difference between a genuine expert and an ill-informed blowhard? Are we going to restore the distinction between those institutions like the Congressional Budget Office that operate by professional standards and speak with legitimate authority, and the propaganda mills that donít? Thereís a hierarchy of excellence in every sphere. Thereís a huge difference between William F. Buckley and Sean Hannity, between the reporters at this newspaper and a rumor-spreader. Part of this struggle is to maintain those distinctions, not to contribute to their evisceration.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    Trump has brought out the worst in all of us. It's the only thing he's good at.

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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    Let’s just concentrate on getting rid of him and all the lying greedy Republicans in Congress then we can worry about what comes next.

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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    I agree with a lot of it, but the tax bill was Mitch and Paul, Trump just signed it let's see if a wall gets built or big infastructure happens, Those are his promises, but I do agree Trump's staff is getting better.

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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    FWIW, it's not only Trump. The steady rightward progress of the American right wing over the past 25 years is at least as much responsible, or more. Extremists are always susceptible to epistemic closure, and dismissal of conventional wisdom about objective facts. Fox News and Breitbart and their ilk predate Trump by a long time. Trump is only the latest manifestation.

    And no, both sides don't do it - or at least not to anything resembling the same degree.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Smith porter maine View Post
    I agree with a lot of it, but the tax bill was Mitch and Paul, Trump just signed it let's see if a wall gets built or big infastructure happens, Those are his promises, but I do agree Trump's staff is getting better.
    The reason why I say it applies to the bildge and people need to pay attention is the following:

    "I mention these inconvenient observations because the anti-Trump movement, of which I’m a proud member, seems to be getting dumber. It seems to be settling into a smug, fairy tale version of reality that filters out discordant information. More anti-Trumpers seem to be telling themselves a “Madness of King George” narrative: Trump is a semiliterate madman surrounded by sycophants who are morally, intellectually and psychologically inferior to people like us."



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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    The reason why I say it applies to the bildge and people need to pay attention is the following:

    "I mention these inconvenient observations because the anti-Trump movement, of which I’m a proud member, seems to be getting dumber. It seems to be settling into a smug, fairy tale version of reality that filters out discordant information. More anti-Trumpers seem to be telling themselves a “Madness of King George” narrative: Trump is a semiliterate madman surrounded by sycophants who are morally, intellectually and psychologically inferior to people like us."



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    I'm not disagreeing with the anti Trump crowd jumping on silly little things, and making the mistake feeling they are superior to Trump and to use a term the deplorables, this attitude cost her the election, not Comey not emails, she took the attitude these forgotten people who were pissed and feeling left behind were some how morally bankrupt for supporting Trump it backfired they decided she was in it for the 1% she blew this so bad a member silver spoon card carrying of the 1% managed to convince them that he was going to do more for them.
    Of course his tax bill shows who he is for but we will see if $18 a week buys Joe the plumber.

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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    ". . . filters out discordant information."
    Like what? The stock market? No plane crashes? "Something magical is happening in the heart of America." -- as Stephen Miller says?

    Only thing I can think of is the opinion of one in a position to know the facts, i.e. Steve Bannon, to the effect that though TrumpCo would not shrink from treason, is nevertheless too inept to collude, let alone conspire to collude. PutinCo would work them like a pimp works his stable. But that isn't really discordant with Trump being a semi-literate madman surrounded by sycophants who are morally, intellectually and psychologically inferior to people like us, is it?

    So it must be something else. Like what?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Smith porter maine View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with the anti Trump crowd jumping on silly little things, and making the mistake feeling they are superior to Trump and to use a term the deplorables, this attitude cost her the election, not Comey not emails, she took the attitude these forgotten people who were pissed and feeling left behind were some how morally bankrupt for supporting Trump it backfired they decided she was in it for the 1% she blew this so bad a member silver spoon card carrying of the 1% managed to convince them that he was going to do more for them.
    Of course his tax bill shows who he is for but we will see if $18 a week buys Joe the plumber.
    They are morally bankrupt. They made the same wager on the Chimp, and likewise, they lost. No more chips. Bankrupt.

    They might re-establish some credit if they repudiated Trump like they've repudiated the Chimp. But then, in the agony of their ignorance and moral bankruptcy, they'd likely just pick another demagogue to tell them that they'd been "unfairly left behind."

    You know what kind of government is committed to not leaving people behind? Socialism. They pretend to oppose socialism because it corrupts the character, but their real objection is the lack of foundation in tribalism. What they want is national socialism -- to make sure everybody else gets left behind.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    .Trump is a semiliterate madman surrounded by sycophants who are morally, intellectually and psychologically inferior to people like us."
    With the exception of the 'inferior' comment, the statement strikes me as true.

    The characterization of Trump himself is, I believe, accurate. The characterization of the sycophants, with respect to morality (and ethics), is pretty close to the mark.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Smith porter maine View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with the anti Trump crowd jumping on silly little things, and making the mistake feeling they are superior to Trump and to use a term the deplorables, this attitude cost her the election, not Comey not emails....
    Utter carp.

    Yes, you can denigrate Hillary for a large number of reasons, and you will be making very valid points..... yes, she was a lousy candidate.

    ...but what you CANNOT do is argue that she 'blew the election', and you certainly can't argue that Comey's handling of the email issue, most especially, in announcing a re-opened investigation just 11 days before the election, wasn't a VERY powerful blow. The result was a 'win' of the popular vote, and a 'loss' of the electoral college that hinged on just 70,000 or so voters in just three states. The election could have gone either way....

    ...and regardless of the outcome, it was not a 'decisive' win for Trump, nor a 'decisive loss' for Clinton. It was merely a very close election.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    FWIW, it's not only Trump. The steady rightward progress of the American right wing over the past 25 years is at least as much responsible, or more. Extremists are always susceptible to epistemic closure, and dismissal of conventional wisdom about objective facts. Fox News and Breitbart and their ilk predate Trump by a long time. Trump is only the latest manifestation.

    And no, both sides don't do it - or at least not to anything resembling the same degree.
    Absolutely correct. The real evil in this is the Murdoch empire. Get rid of that and Trump and his ilk slip back into the swamp where they belong. Murdoch causes horror everywhere he goes.

    Rick

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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    It’s a struggle over what rules we’re going to play by after Trump. Are we all going to descend permanently into the Trump standard of acceptable behavior? Or, are we going to restore the distinction between excellence and mediocrity, truth and a lie?
    Pandora's Box could not be closed. This is what happens when you coddle the likes of the ridiculous right - and let them assert fantasy as fact.

    To be sure, the slope has been long and growing ever steeper.

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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    Well, maybe not. One may disagree about what should be done about it, but nomal this ain't.

    David Brooks Picked a Bad Week to Say Trump ‘Runs a Normal, Good Meeting’
    By Jonathan Chait

    Four days ago, David Brooks broke the news in the New York Times that President Trump is actually a sober-minded and competent public servant. “People who go into the White House to have a meeting with President Trump usually leave pleasantly surprised,” he reported. “They find that Trump is not the raving madman they expected from his tweetstorms or the media coverage. They generally say that he is affable, if repetitive. He runs a normal, good meeting and seems well-informed enough to get by.”
    It is safe to say that this column has not aged well in the short time since its publication.

    Take, for instance, yesterday. The morning began with Trump watching Fox News and impulsively tweeting out his confused opposition to a surveillance reauthorization bill that, unbeknownst to the president, his administration was furiously lobbying Congress to approve. At that point, all hell broke loose. Trump’s sycophants descended. “House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.) spent 30 minutes on the phone with the president explaining the differences between domestic and foreign surveillance, as many fellow Republicans reacted in disbelief and befuddlement,” reported the Washington Post. Trump finally tweeted a message professing support for the bill and pretending the previous tweet had not said what it did.

    Was Paul Ryan “pleasantly surprised”? Was Trump “well-informed enough to get by”? Not if the definition of these terms requires the president understanding his own administration’s position on a bill that was coming to a vote that very day.

    Later in the day, of course, Trump ranted to senators about immigrants being allowed to enter the United States from ““****hole countries.” News reports do not make this sound at all like a “normal, good meeting.”

    Also yesterday, Trump gave an interview to The Wall Street Journal in which he made a number of claims that, had a non-Trump president uttered them, would have consumed the national media with astonishment. For instance, he claimed that former FBI agent Peter Strzok — who sent texts to a fellow agent disparaging politicians in both parties — had committed treason. “A man is tweeting to his lover that if [Democrat Hillary Clinton] loses, we’ll essentially do the insurance policy. We’ll go to phase two and we’ll get this guy out of office,” Trump said. “This is the FBI we’re talking about — that is treason. That is a treasonous act. What he tweeted to his lover is a treasonous act.”

    In fact, Strzok was describing an FBI policy of going easy on the Trump investigation during the campaign, on the premise that Trump was going to lose anyway. (Strzok likened the necessity of investigating Trump regardless as “insurance” against the possibility he might win anyway, which proved correct.) Strzok’s political views in the texts were idiosyncratic and somewhat right of center. In any case, FBI agents are allowed to hold political views. It is not treason for an FBI agent to criticize a presidential candidate. Nor is it treason for the agency to launch a counterintelligence investigation against the president. Trump’s belief that agents investigating his allies are necessarily traitors is fundamentally authoritarian. Not normal! Not good!

    In that same interview, Trump gave his reasons for why the news media allegedly lies about him more than anybody in history:

    TRUMP: They dislike me, the liberal media dislikes me. I mean I watch people — I was always the best at what I did, I was the — I was, you know, I went to the — I went to the Wharton School of Finance, did well. I went out, I — I started in Brooklyn, in a Brooklyn office with my father, I became one of the most successful real estate developers, one of the most successful business people. I created maybe the greatest brand.

    I then go into, in addition to that, part time, like five percent a week, I open up a television show. As you know, the Apprentice on many evenings was the number one show on all of television, a tremendous success. It went on for 12 years, a tremendous success. They wanted to sign me for another three years and I said, no, I can’t do that. That’s one of the reasons NBC hates me so much. NBC hates me so much they wanted — they were desperate to sign me for — for three more years.”

    Trump’s explanation of the media’s unfairness is a narcissistic rant about his intelligence and tremendous success that utterly fails to account for the media’s hostility, except to suppose, bizarrely, that NBC News is carrying out a vendetta against Trump based on his refusal to extend his reality-television series on their network. Trump’s response is so discursive that the Journal attempts to change the subject. But then Trump decides to stick with the subject and note that he is also “the best athlete,” which also somehow explains why the media opposes him, or should not oppose him, or something:

    WSJ: Mr. President, you made reference to the book. Steve Bannon …

    TRUMP: Just — and so — so I was successful, successful, successful. I was always the best athlete, people don’t know that. But I was successful at everything I ever did and then I run for president, first time — first time, not three times, not six times. I ran for President first time and lo and behold, I win. And then people say oh, is he a smart person? I’m smarter than all of them put together, but they can’t admit it. They had a bad year."

    Just a normal, good meeting where the president can’t stop talking about why the media hates him because he was “successful, successful, successful” and “the best athlete.”

    Brooks’s column used his observations about Trump’s surprisingly impressive focus and mental acuity to conclude that Trump’s critics had been overreacting and losing their dignity. Anti-Trumpers, he argued, were “getting dumber” and reducing themselves to “monotonous daily hysteria.”

    This is essentially the position Brooks has taken about every step in the Republican Party’s long march into extremism and madness. After having depicted Trump as a final break, Brooks was returning to his natural condition.

    It is obviously true that, in a large country, a broad spectrum of opinion will inevitably produce excesses on every side. Even a president as deranged and racist as Trump will be talked about, by somebody, in excessively harsh terms. Yet Brooks’s conclusion that Trump critics have on the whole exaggerated his flaws, that Trump is in fact reasonably well informed, affable, and sane, does not seem to be a reasonable conclusion at all. Instead it is an expression of Brooks’s unavoidable tendency to impose a sheen of normality on a political party that is anything but.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    not a chait fan (too much virtue signalling perhaps) but that was brilliantly well played
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    Pandora's Box could not be closed. This is what happens when you coddle the likes of the ridiculous right - and let them assert fantasy as fact.

    To be sure, the slope has been long and growing ever steeper.
    I have to disagree. And history disagrees also. They say history doesn't exactly repeat itself... but it rhymes - and we have been in similar debauched downward spirals before... and recovered.
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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    I think the US will recover too but it's going to be a steep climb. It's hard these days to look at a US flag without feeling nauseous. I used to buy American products with confidence but these days I refuse for political reasons. Some of you might think that that's just typical anti-US bias. Not so, I've supported and defended US interests for most of my life. I just can't continue to respect a nation that elects and tolerates this deplorable regime. Everywhere I go I meet people with the same view. Trump no longer travels to decent countries because he's too scared to, knowing the protests he'll be met with. Why isn't this happening in the US?

    Rick

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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    not a brooks fan. chait nailed my objection to the career republican apologist.
    50% of people are below average in intelligence.


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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    not a brooks fan. chait nailed my objection to the career republican apologist.
    Those last three words nail it . . . in three words.

    The kind of guy who says "I'm not a Republican, I'm an independent."

    George Will made it official. Why can't Brooks? Cuz he's a punk, that's why.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Lots of folks on this forum should read this one carefully. It applies to many of us, to varying degrees.


    ". . . filters out discordant information."

    The Decline of Anti-Trumpism https://a.msn.com/r/2/BBI8voY?m=en-us&a=1
    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Like what? The stock market? No plane crashes? "Something magical is happening in the heart of America." -- as Stephen Miller says?

    Only thing I can think of is the opinion of one in a position to know the facts, i.e. Steve Bannon, to the effect that though TrumpCo would not shrink from treason, is nevertheless too inept to collude, let alone conspire to collude. PutinCo would work them like a pimp works his stable. But that isn't really discordant with Trump being a semi-literate madman surrounded by sycophants who are morally, intellectually and psychologically inferior to people like us, is it?

    So it must be something else. Like what?
    It's gotten to where if you guys answers one of my questions, it's a rare event. But you know what, it puts you in the same fix as the Republicans who "decline comment" on whether Trump said things known to have been said in his presence, i.e. the S hole business. "There was a girl being raped on the sidewalk. You were there." "Yes, but I decline to comment."

    Silence is complicity, my friend.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

  22. #22
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    Default Re: David Brook's latesr

    Donald is single handedly trashing the reputation of the USA. But he didn't do it alone, the complacent, the non-appearers, and those who voted for him are also responsible.
    Maybe this time you have gotten a government you deserve. Question is of course so has everyone else, most other governments in the US sphere are still holding their breath and hoping things will revert to normal.

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