Contemplating owning a wooden sailboat in Seattle

[sejman]

Hi folks - first post (and not sure if this is the right sub-forum)

As an empty nester and a relatively recent transplant to Seattle, I'm itching to get back into boating. I grew up on the South Shore of Boston sailing and racing in Quincy Bay, starting with dinghies (Turnabouts and N20s) then moving up to 420s and then International 110s. I owned a powerboat in Texas for blasting around the lakes when my kids were young, but the main thing I took away from that experience is that I don't ever want to trailer a boat again. I'm drawn to classic looking boats and don't mind having to do some work - I actually need projects and like working with my hands to keep myself sane. I plan on daysailing or occasional weekending and originally started looking at the "classic plastics" (Cape Dory's, Bristols, Pearsons) in the 25-30' range - there are some to choose from that are very affordable. But I really get excited when I stumble across a wooden boat in decent shape. So I've subscribed to Wooden Boat, joined the Center for Wooden Boats, and now I'm starting to get serious about actually pulling the trigger on buying something.

So the questions:
1) Anyone have experience in the Seattle area with where to keep a classic, older wooden sailboat? Seems like I have to figure that out first since I don't have any place to store the boat. I'm shocked by how many of the marinas I have visited are very sad places - run down docks filled with neglected boats. Also surprising that given this state of affairs that every place seems to have waitlists. How is it that marinas can be full of people that can pay moorage leases but seem to have forgotten that they own a boat?
2) I'm planning on daysailing and maybe weekending, mostly single-handing (I'll have my wife and dog along but this is my passion, not hers). Is a 30' full-keel boat manageable to get into and out of a slip single-handed (obviously with some practice?) or should I be going smaller?
3) Assuming that I find the right boat, what should I budget for maintenance of a boat that surveys well and has been taken care of? I can (and will) do most of the routine stuff myself (engine maintenance, paint, varnish, rigging, etc.) but how often is a haul-out and total strip/paint needed and what is the typical cost?
4) I doubt anyone will try to talk me out of buying an older wooden boat on this forum, but I'm doing everything I can to educate myself about the potential issues vs. a plastic boat. Other than a good survey, any other advice before I go down this road?

Thanks and looking forward to becoming part of the community!
-Steve

[2dogsnight]

Hi Steve,


What you will find out that in the rainy winter not many boats are going out. Marinas are full, and for various reason some boat owners are not eager to go there and work on boats. Winters here are rainy and often windy, short summers are spectacular and more or less windless.....
But, lot's of very experienced wooden boats owners on this discussion group, and you will have them chiming in in no time.

Welcome to PNW !!

Wojo

[Jay Greer]

You might want to check, in your neck of the woods, with the Center For Wooden boats and see if they have any info for you.
Jay

[bamamick]

I think it's about the best place in the US to own a wooden boat. Temperate weather that's not so dry is about ideal. The sixes and 30 square metres seem to thrive in that weather. I think you should go for it if it's your dream.

Mickey Lake

[rbgarr]

It's great to hear someone asking questions about how they would actually use a boat, find moorage and pay for maintenance. I've only been to your area a few times but noticed that an unexpected number (to me) of the 'classic plastics' were green with algae and signs of disuse, confirming what you saw. Not so much the wood (power)boats but many were moored in covered slips.

As for maintenance costs for a wood boat? Even doing much of the usual, annual maintenence myself, I budget 10-15% of the value ($30K) of the boat for major work and upgrades. That way we can get the most days afloat and have better, faster work done by competent specialists on the hard. I won't spend that amount every year but it will average that over time. I'll be interested to hear what others say.

[J.Madison]

Where exactly in Seattle are you? A boat in the 26' range will have no trouble finding moorage. The bigger the boat, the longer the waitlists. South of town you can get a good rate at Des Moines or Tacoma, or in the Duwamish waterway. North there are fewer budget options, but Edmonds and Everett are nice facilities. Across the sound there are more options, and much cheaper, but a ferry ride is often a 2 hour affair with lines.

This is a great place for wooden boats, the water is cool and salty but doesn't freeze. The only caveat is that the deck must be kept tight as boats around here always rot from the top down due to sweet rain water leaking through the decks and cabins.

Good wooden sailboats are just astonishingly cheap. Every week I try to go out and buy more of them. Luckily my current projects keep my bank account too low even for that. I would watch carefully. Don't fall in love immediately unless you are sure its just right. There are more options than buyers, and boats often go for half what they are asking.

Haulouts are traditionally done once each year for bottom paint. A coat of topsides paint will keep her fresh as well. You can get away with a two year cycle with good paint.

A 30' boat is manageable single handed, but if you are new to it a 24-26' boat is much easier to fend off when things get awry. It is big enough for real sailing up to the islands etc.. but small enough for easy handling.

Good luck!

[Garret]

I don't live in Seattle, but I have a boat built there... Don't play one on TV either.

Glad to hear you've joined the CWB - great outfit! They may well be a good resource, but I bet some PNW folks will chime in on this thread. There is a large crowd of hooligans - oops - people who own wood boats in your area!

You are in a fantastic area for sailing. Enjoy!

[johnw]

For daysailing, you might try the Center for Wooden Boats, which has boats up to 20' to rent, and you can get use of the boats for volunteer time. The forces go up pretty rapidly as size increases, but I had no trouble single handing a 31' ketch, in part because each sail was small. Are you thinking of something like a Thunderbird, or plank on frame?

[Hugh MacD]

How Classic is "Classic" to you? If you're wiling to look at a slightly newer design, Bill Garden't "Toadstool" is currently available. he has a traditional rig and appearance with a very contemporary underbody that will make tight handling easier. As has been said, where in Seattle you happen to live makes a big difference in mooring opportunities. Are you planning on doing your own maintenance? Are you planning on having work done? As you're already a member for CWB I would pick as many brains as you can and plan on hitting their shows and going over to Port Townsend to the Wooden Boat Festival in September. Lots of brains to pick and great folks to rub elbows with. Not to mention the floating eye candy!

[Ian McColgin]

If you can get Toadstool you're moving the right way. Garden loved those waters and Toadstool is for sure a native.

[willin woodworks]

Turnabouts were fun little boats werent they? We sailed them in Chatham Bay when I was a kid at camp on The Cape.

[sejman]

Thanks for the encouragement! I rented the Blanchard Jr's at the CWB (and even a Pelican at the Camano Beach outpost) this summer and convinced myself that I need my own boat to fuss over and something big enough for another couple (or both my kids when visiting). I'm drawn to the lines of a plank-on-frame, curvey, overhangy, wineglassy-stern so a Thunderbird is not going to do it for me.

Every time I run across Toadstool on CL I stop and take another look - very pretty boat and I hope she finds a new owner. The $35K asking price is just out of my budget right now. There's a Ralph Winslow sloop for sale over on Bainbridge that looks nice (from the pics) but I think will need to be repowered - trying to get more info on it from the broker. That would be a deal breaker.

I'm also in discussion with a broker about a 1949 Alden Malabar Jr that looks to be in excellent shape with a fresh Yanmar. The owner has dropped the price to $14K and seems motivated. Hoping to get hold of a recent survey as I believe the current owner may have only bought her only a year ago. She has a nice big cockpit, a full set of sails, good winter covers, and overall seems to have been well cared for. Strange to me that they are not marketing it as a Malabar Jr - I had to figure that out by taking the boat number off the bronze plate and digging into a Alden design database. She's one of 18 Malabar Jr's built between 1946-1963.

I'm right in Seattle only a couple blocks from Lake Washington (Mount Baker neighborhood) so keeping her at a slip in Leschi would be super easy but Lake Union nicer for easier/quicker access to the Sound. Since I'm on the south side of downtown, Des Moines is a better option than Everett or Edmunds so I'll have to check that out. Something over on Bainbridge might also be a decent option if the price is right.

[johnw]

I hope there's good news on the survey!

[Bobcat]

When you're looking for moorage, consider how and where you want to use your boat. If you're interested in cruising to Port Townsend or the San Juan Islands, Des Moines will be several hours more travel time than if you're in Everett for example. Moorage in Lake Union is expensive and you have to transit the locks if you want to get to the salt water, again adding to travel time

I keep my boat in Everett. My brother keeps his boat in Anacortes, figuring he would rather drive to the boat and be closer to the San Juans.

[stromborg]

2) I'm planning on daysailing and maybe weekending, mostly single-handing (I'll have my wife and dog along but this is my passion, not hers).
-Steve

Sounds familiar. As it turns out my wife gets seasick pretty fast on the 20' boat I built so I mostly day sail while threatening to head out on overnights but those never seem to happen. Next year though, look out.

Find a slip as close to home as you can. Mine is 10 minutes from the house, with only have a few hours to spare I can get out for a little cruise, knock the seaweed off the bottom and shake the creases out of the sails. Those moldy boats belong to folks living far enough away that they can't just head out. As for size, I've noticed the smaller boats in my marina get used more than the big ones. Be realistic about how many people you really want to have sleeping on your boat, maybe a big cockpit would be better than 4 or 6 cramped berths? A few years back there was a nice wood boat here in Eagle Harbor (Watermelon?) that the owner took the cabin off of to turn it into a big open daysailer because he hadn't actually slept aboard in a long time.

[navydog]

As far as handling the boat by yourself, I'd look for something 25'-27'. When it's calm with no currents even a barge is easy to park. But if you have cross winds or currents while docking a smaller boat will be easier. Since your not going out for weeks at a time under 30' will provide adequate space and accommodations and over 25 will still be large enough to be safe and comfortable in moderate weather. Being as your aged like fine wine you won't want to be out in any gales anyway.

[navydog]

That Malabar looks good except a lot of mahogany bright work has been painted over. It could be someone was tired of keeping up the varnish, or it might mean the paint is hiding a lot of soft dark wood.

[sejman]

I just learned that the current owner only purchased her in April 2017 and didn't have it surveyed . I did happen to get a hold of the survey from the previous owner which was done in Port Angeles in 2010. Nothing very interesting in that survey other than it showed a Yanmar and the boat now has a fresh Beta 14 (only 50 hours) with a 2014 date on it, so it was re-powered somewhere between 2014 now and hardly used.

I also noticed that the lazerette covers/seats in an older picture were not painted (looked like teak/holly) but they are painted today. I have a feeling that someone just hated the upkeep and so painted almost everything except the toe rails and hatch doors. Someone also added that chrome stern railing - the boat looks so much prettier without. Other strange changes from that older picture: the main winches look to be chrome but are now bronze and the stanchions in the older picture seem to be chrome (with stainless lifelines) and are now bronze with nylon rope lifelines. Weird. Down below, there was a diesel heater on the forward bulkhead (per the survey) but now there is a tiny cast iron wood stove where a galley stove would have probably originally been located (port side aft).

Kind of a bummer that the current owner basically seems to know nothing about the boat and never really used her - I wish I could find out more about all of these modifications.

[capnharv]

I may sound like a broken record, but if you're still interested, get a good survey done. A lot of things can go wrong in 7-8 years.

Harvey

[bvv]

I was pretty much in the same place you are now, looking for a wood boat in Seattle, almost 30 years ago. I was lucky enough to find one that was built in 1941 by a local iconic boat shop, sweet lines designed by a genius local naval architect, and well kept for most of the 40 years spent under the previous owner's care.

Lots of good advice here. For me, local provenance was important. Most wood boats will require repairs, sooner or later. The trick is to buy one where the cost of those repairs are within the new owner's means, where those 'means' are money, skills, and resolve. You can only approach that state of being by getting all the help you can before you write a check the owner. That means writing a check to a well-recommended shipwright to survey her for you - or to a couple.

Ask some shipwrights if they know of a good boat for sale. If they've worked on it, they'll have a good idea of its condition. Look for one with bronze fastenings, yellow cedar planking (assuming NW heritage), 100% watertight deck, spruce spars. A teak house is the best. As mentioned above, watch out for painted brightwork unless it was made to be painted(i.e., ply). Butt joints and hood ends need to be looked at closely. A boat that's been cared for and for sale by an owner that's had her for many years is less likely to hide major problems. Try to determine the real reason the seller is selling.

You can sometimes find a slip in one of the Lake Union or Portage Bay houseboat moorages - a pretty wood boat will make that easier.

[navydog]

I just learned that the current owner only purchased her in April 2017 and didn't have it surveyed . I did happen to get a hold of the survey from the previous owner which was done in Port Angeles in 2010. Nothing very interesting in that survey other than it showed a Yanmar and the boat now has a fresh Beta 14 (only 50 hours) with a 2014 date on it, so it was re-powered somewhere between 2014 now and hardly used.

I also noticed that the lazerette covers/seats in an older picture were not painted (looked like teak/holly) but they are painted today. I have a feeling that someone just hated the upkeep and so painted almost everything except the toe rails and hatch doors. Someone also added that chrome stern railing - the boat looks so much prettier without. Other strange changes from that older picture: the main winches look to be chrome but are now bronze and the stanchions in the older picture seem to be chrome (with stainless lifelines) and are now bronze with nylon rope lifelines. Weird. Down below, there was a diesel heater on the forward bulkhead (per the survey) but now there is a tiny cast iron wood stove where a galley stove would have probably originally been located (port side aft).

Kind of a bummer that the current owner basically seems to know nothing about the boat and never really used her - I wish I could find out more about all of these modifications.

It doesn't sound like those 2 sets of pictures are from the same boat.

[sejman]

Definitely the same boat - her name is clear on all photos and no ambiguity about the hull color and other unique features. I guess someone just decided to go back to the original bronze winches and stanchions for looks I guess. Was going through the boat again today and confirmed the location of the original stack for the heater against the bulkhead.

Anyway - while poking around in the bilges I noticed that a couple of ribs where they curve hard to meet the bilge looked partially cracked. These ribs are adjacent to bulkheads in the bilge so doesn't seem like much of a structural issue but thought I'd get opinions before I go any further:

[navydog]

How many are like that and are they all close together?

[J.Madison]

That is pretty common to have frames broken like that. I do not mean that it is okay, just common. A quick fix would be to put in a couple sister frames that go well above the cracks. Maybe from the keel to a foot above the crack at least. They can go against and fasten to the old frames, or be intermediate and have new floors added to them if the floors are suspect as well. The real fix is to scarf in new frame heels, or bend in entirely new frames.

I love those boats, the Malabar Jr and Eric Jr are just so lovely for sailing this area.

[sejman]

The next frame aft (in the same bilge bay between those bulkheads) looks similar, but the next one aft that looks pretty good. I didn't go any further in either direction as it would have required tools to start removing floor boards. You can see that those frames are through-bolted to the bulkheads, so it seems that the bulkhead is actually already "sistering" the frame at that location.

I have zero experience with this stuff, but my intuition is that the splitting is due to the age of the wood and asking wood fibers to bend at a high radius, forcing the fibers on the outside to stretch beyond their ability to comply for long and not due to actual stress in the hull structure (or a blow from the outside) since the bulkhead would also sustain damage.

[Garret]

IMO (& I'm not a boatbuilder - but a long-term wood boat owner) I see nothing wrong with properly done sisters. Make sure they cover at least 3 planks & are properly shaped & fastened.

[sejman]

BTW - I got the name of a local expert wooden boat guy that I'll contact about doing the survey (Lee Ehrheart) assuming I get that far. At this point, I'm just trying to make sure that I don't have a big problem on my hands before I shell out the money for the haul-out and survey. The rest of the boat looks really good. I friended a local wooden boat owner who I discovered via his blog (http://svripple.blogspot.com/) and he did me a big favor and ran over the boat quickly. Other than these frames, everything else seems to check out, at least from a basic quick inspection.

[navydog]

The next frame aft (in the same bilge bay between those bulkheads) looks similar, but the next one aft that looks pretty good. I didn't go any further in either direction as it would have required tools to start removing floor boards. You can see that those frames are through-bolted to the bulkheads, so it seems that the bulkhead is actually already "sistering" the frame at that location.

I have zero experience with this stuff, but my intuition is that the splitting is due to the age of the wood and asking wood fibers to bend at a high radius, forcing the fibers on the outside to stretch beyond their ability to comply for long and not due to actual stress in the hull structure (or a blow from the outside) since the bulkhead would also sustain damage.

Your analysis is right on the money. However lots of them together isn't a good thing and there could be other forces at work.. I'd want to know the condition of the screws down there. The cross bolts and the rib fasteners into the keel below the break are not doing anything. Are the floors drifted or bolted?

[sejman]

When you say "floors" do you just mean the floor boards or is that a term for some other part of the boat structure? (sorry - I'm just learning some of this shipwright terminology)

Assuming you mean the floor boards themselves, they are kind of a hodge-podge (indeed, the entire interior cabin fit-out is a hodge-podge) of original and non-original stuff of varying quality. Some of the floor is marine ply, painted and screwed down. Right down the center are a couple of pieces of sold fir or pine that not of the same thickness, varnished and just set in place. Over by the head, there is what looks to be original linoleum (the same vintage as that used to create surface for the galley/sink area - yuck).

I would probably rip out most of this at some point and do it up nice with teak trim - would be a fun winter project.

[navydog]

I think what you are referring to as bulkheads are floors. Floors are usualy 2-3 inches thick and about 12 inches high. It's common to have adjacent ribs bolted to them. Floors are what holds the keel on.

[sejman]

Ahh - I figured "floors" meant something else from your questions. I don't know how those floors are fastened and what they are actually fastened to. How can I tell or where should I look?

There are large bolts in the base of the bilge (I hesitate now to use the word "floor") that I assume are holding the keel on and they look pretty good - surface rust but they don't look that bad considering the age of the boat and that they are often sitting in some water.

[sejman]

OK just did a quick check on the interwebs what a "floor" is and does - seems that those bolts through the adjacent frames/ribs hold them vertical and they are bolted to the keel (not the ballast keel) which I guess is what I see as the "floor" of the bilge. I didn't notice any counterbored holes in the tops of the floors with bolt heads in them but they may have been there...I'll have to check next time I'm over looking at things.

[navydog]

You really do need a surveyor.

[Garret]

Here's a pic, that while intended to show a keelbolt with issues, will show what a floor is:

OldKeelbolt.jpg

Behind the rusty keelbolt (yes it's been replaced) you can see a frame arching up towards the right & several more in the background. Also behind the bolt is a dark piece of wood. That's a floor. It's attached to the keel timber with a long lag bolt from the top down into the keel. It is also screwed into the frame on either side.

Hope this helps

[bvv]

Lee's seen lots of floors. I once made patterns for a couple of bronze replacements for rotten wood floors for a friend who then had them cast, after which Lee installed.

That photo seems to show the frame laid up against a floor with a through bolt. Surprised there isn't a second one, but maybe it's out of the picture. Looks like remnants of red lead paint, then black stain (are the frame/floor bolts iron? - what about the keel bolts, plank fasteners?)

Following up on Garret's comment, the proper repair if OK with a sister is to pull the garboard, remove the frame from the heel to at least three planks up, install the new 'shortie' in the same place as the original, then install the 'six plank long' sister.

On my boat, Nautilus, we found similar issues here and there, plus cracks in about 8 frames slightly below the waterline on the port side. Hard landing, I guess. We decided to rework all of the frames on both sides from the companionway to the head/hanging locker bulkhead. New frames, about 7 ft long, were installed from the keel socket as described above, replacing the original frames and reusing the original planking screw holes - or repairing them as needed - to minimize the number of planking penetrations. Sisters were added - again, about 7' long, from just inside the settee, then under the bilge stringer, and up to about a foot below the clamp.