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Thread: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

  1. #1
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    Default a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    For a while I have had a vague intention to carve a half model of Herreshoff's Reliance.I found a set of lines and I have a large enough piece of wood,so things look promising.I am quite confident that I can arrive at something reasonably true to the shape of the boat and would like to enlist the help of any historians or scholars to help with the correct colour for the bottom.Was it red antifouling or did they burnish the bronze plating?

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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    I believe it was burnished bronze. I recall that NGH was in Brooklyn to look her over when she went into drydock at Erie Basin in August 1903, shortly before the Cup series started, as did Shamrock III:

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...in_Drydock.jpg

    https://www.loc.gov/item/2016805040/

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/librar...ss/20925987206

    https://redhookwaterstories.org/exhi...singravingdock
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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    Thanks for the comment and the links.I had a feeling that bronze would be likely,but have found no reference and no reliable paintings.One other slight obstacle was that the lines I found were not from source,but a redrafting of a set of lines after a couple of earlier versions and they appear to show a bit of a hump in the sheer.Was it likely that NGH designed it that way to keep water off the deck or was the bow sagging a touch?I have made a template and tweaked it a touch to improve the fairness.

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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    Not hogged or humped in the images, very flat but still sweet.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    I visited the Herreshoff museum earlier this year. https://www.herreshoff.org/


    They built a little model of Reliance.


    Relienace.jpg

    reliance b.jpg


    reliancea.jpg

    It is a must see museum if you love Herreshoff.
    Ric in Richmond

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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    Those pictures certainly help to answer my original question.Additionally,they suggest to me that the ballast was internal,as otherwise the bottom should have a different coloured zone where any external ballast keel would have been.Would that be correct?

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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    I see blue(ish) where the lead would be (or, is). Çertainly low on the fin.

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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Those pictures certainly help to answer my original question.Additionally,they suggest to me that the ballast was internal,as otherwise the bottom should have a different coloured zone where any external ballast keel would have been.Would that be correct?
    It is quite feasible that the lead was poured into the ballast keel after she was plated up.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    After visiting a number of the Reliance Project's extensive site-the weather encouraged me to do so-I found a couple of images of the grey area on the fin keel and will do something similar when I reach the painting phase.

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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    I have always wondered if anyone has tried to find her. She went down off Atlantic City N.J. , didn’t she?

    Given today’s technology, if she were raised I wonder what would be left of her (with that bronze plating)?

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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    After visiting a number of the Reliance Project's extensive site-the weather encouraged me to do so-I found a couple of images of the grey area on the fin keel and will do something similar when I reach the painting phase.
    It might just be shadow or condensation. I'd give those model makers a call rather than try to reinvent the wheel
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    The boat was broken up in 1913 I believe.The photograph on the Reliance Project's webpage is pretty clear about the grey portion of the keel.I doubt too many people delve into such obscure aspects of a long gone boat and its good to know that the information is available with a bit of searching.


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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    I have always wondered if anyone has tried to find her. She went down off Atlantic City N.J. , didn’t she?
    I believe she was scrapped after her single year of racing (in which she won every race she entered): in salt water, the iron frames and bronze plating ate each other. According to my library, her winches were used on the 1920 and 1930 AC defenders.

    Alex

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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    Pouring that much hot lead into a plated keel structure could be a recipe for disaster. It was surely cast independently with the hull structure built atop it. There's this website of the J-Class Ranger's 100+ ton lead keel being poured into a sand mold: http://www.mainemaritimemuseum.org/c...-rangers-keel/

    What's interesting to me is that Reliance's lead ballast keel was about the same size: http://abrushwithsail.blogspot.com/2...-reliance.html
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  16. #16

    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    Reliance was scrapped in July 1914 by Brooklyn marine junk dealer Michael Cowhey.

    Her lead was poured before the Herreshoff Manufacturing Company had even ordered the bronze for building the hull.

    The Hart Nautical Collections at M.I.T. hold some 170 plans relating to Reliance. You may want to inquire if you can buy some study plans.

    A good lines plan and sail plan of Reliance was published in the magnificent book by Francois Chevalier and Jacques Taglang, America's Cup Yacht Designs 1851-1986 (Paris, 1987).

    A good book about Reliance is Christopher Pastore's Temple to the Wind. The Story of America's Greatest Naval Architect and his Masterpiece, Reliance (Guilford, Connecticut, 2005).

    And, finally, it may be a good idea to consult the Herreshoff Catalogue Raisonné at http://herreshoff.info and search for Reliance.

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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    Thanks for the additional information,I did buy Temple to the Wind a few months ago and the urge to carve a half model began there.I found a set of lines and used the process of tracing over them to create a basic CAD file,which I then scaled up to a suitable size for the block I had available.It wasn't the perfect piece of wood and due to my eagerness to make progress I used it regardless.Some progress has been made as shown.

    stage 1.jpgstage 2.jpgstage 3.jpg

  18. #18
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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    Finally finished the half model and mounted it on a backboard.It definitely changed the look by putting it on a backboard.

    Reliance.jpg

  19. #19
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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    Wow! Beautiful!

  20. #20
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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    Yes,... beautiful!

    (and thank you all for setting me straight on her demise.)

  21. #21
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    Default Re: a question about Herreshoff's Reliance

    Question; why do people persist in refering to the "yellow metal" plating on the Herreshoff AC boats as bronze, it was "Tobin Bronze" which is a trade name and basically what the rest of the world calls "naval Brass", ie. not bronze but a low zinc brass, a very different animal.

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