View Poll Results: Round, single chine or multi/lapstrake hull

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  • round

    4 28.57%
  • single chine

    1 7.14%
  • multichine- glued lap

    9 64.29%
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Thread: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

  1. #1
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    Default single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Wrong people to ask about what you might buy, but seeing as you all (most) have good taste, i was wondering what the consensus was on hull visuals, rather than the construction method itself. Just for the sake of imagery, i post a photo of each kind of style, though not the same design, which might be along the lines of a raised deck motorsailer. If you feel the need to comment on your choice, please elaborate. This may divert into the pros and cons of build method at some point judging by the usual thread drift, but voting is for asthetics, what would you choose?







    Hopefully Tad wont mind me using his Bear Bay 23 as an example of a multichine hull.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    From a purely aesthetic view I prefer a round bilge.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Pick the one that you're proud of when completed and makes you smile every time you see it.
    Your choice is the only one that counts... her choice if married or you'll not get much use out of it.

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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    That multi-chine (Bear Bay) is awesome-looking! It's hard to focus just on the hull. Example #1 has a nice round bilge but is not very appealing to me. Same with #2. There are some nice single-chine boats out there (the boat in the Salt & Tar videos comes to mind) but the one in #2 does not appeal to me.

    It's a good thing we're only talking aesthetics, 'cause I'm no boat expert!

    Mike
    "near it, a small whale-boat, painted red and blue, the delight of the king's old age."

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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Swin Ranger 22 in the first pic?

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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    What's above the rail counts way more than what's below when it comes to appearance. And the overall proportions count more than specific details. For example, put an oversized cabin trunk on any boat and it gets ugly.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    Swin Ranger 22 in the first pic?
    Yes. Friend of mine owned one of the few junk rigged versions, actually a surprise performer off wind.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    What's above the rail counts way more than what's below when it comes to appearance. And the overall proportions count more than specific details. For example, put an oversized cabin trunk on any boat and it gets ugly.
    I agree Dave. Without actually posting a fancy graphic of the proposed design in each build method, its not really an easy thing to ask. I would expect round bilge would come out on top for most , but no harm asking.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Robb View Post
    Pick the one that you're proud of when completed and makes you smile every time you see it.
    Your choice is the only one that counts... her choice if married or you'll not get much use out of it.
    For me its an easy choice, but i wonder where everyone else is at.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    All other factors aside, purely hull shape apearence. Easy

    Multichined

    Last edited by Matt young; 12-10-2017 at 09:13 AM.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    I don't like #2. I prefer to keep the chine below/at the waterline for looks. Having them pop up at the ends always look awkward to me.

    Tom
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    I’d like one of them deadrise boats with a round stern, please.

    Oh, I already got it all drawn up, and if I ever build a power boat...

    Peace,
    Chiney McChineface

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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I don't like #2. I prefer to keep the chine below/at the waterline for looks. Having them pop up at the ends always look awkward to me.

    Tom
    Yeah, actually the single chine can be built like McChineface suggests, in a deadrise style, at least at the bow, not sure how it can be hidden aft without creating a lot of drag, especially with variable loading.


    Atkin Martha Jane style with upswept chine aft.....i could live with it.

    Last edited by skaraborgcraft; 12-10-2017 at 12:48 PM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    I’d like one of them deadrise boats with a round stern, please.

    Oh, I already got it all drawn up, and if I ever build a power boat...

    Peace,
    Chiney McChineface
    Not so sure the outboard rudder goes so well with the round stern McChineface, would have to drop the windvane option for that to work.......do you trust an electrical helm to see you across a 8 day passage?

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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Not so sure the outboard rudder goes so well with the round stern McChineface, would have to drop the windvane option for that to work.......do you trust an electrical helm to see you across a 8 day passage?
    Oh, I ain’t taking no 8 day passage in no motor boat.
    But, yes, a windvane would be a necessity for a passage. No electronic pilot for me. The fewer gewgaws the better off I am. Electronic stuff hates me.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Yeah, actually the single chine can be built like McChineface suggests, in a deadrise style, at least at the bow, not sure how it can be hidden aft without creating a lot of drag, especially with variable loading.


    Atkin Martha Jane style with upswept chine aft.....i could live with it.

    I like this type, too.

    Peace,
    Robert

  17. #17
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Motor sailer.......not quite a 50-50 unless it blowing hard, then it will perform like a usual sailboat.

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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Yeah, actually the single chine can be built like McChineface suggests, in a deadrise style, at least at the bow, not sure how it can be hidden aft without creating a lot of drag, especially with variable loading.
    Atkin Martha Jane style with upswept chine aft.....i could live with it.
    Yes, I don't mind the chine showing a bit at the stern. At the bow, it's not my thing at all.

    Tom
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt young View Post
    All other factors aside, purely hull shape apearence. Easy

    Multichined

    I raise you a single chine:


  20. #20
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    You cannot argue with a person about looks...that is totally subjective, and bears little resemblance to function. the ugly alternative may be better or worse....even that is subjective, because the better function may work for me in my patch but not work for you in your patch. I think a boat can be designed so the chine enhances the overall looks. I really like Bolge'rs Chebacco.

    Chines nearly always have a little more drag. The added drag may be subject to speed. the main ...'chine drag' is due to water crossing the chine creating eddies, because the pressure on one side of the chine exceeds the pressure on the other side. Mr Bolger called this the "sea of peas" theory. It will generally be more pronounced if the angle of the chine is closer to 90* and diminishing as the angle increases. I think the added drag for a multi-chine boat will normally be miniscule.

    The chine can...if it more or less follows the diagonal, actually reduce drag by sorting out the eddies along the path of the water. In this case the pressure differential across the chine would be close to zero so little if any water is crossing the chine ....creating eddies

    A chine can be helpful in keeping water off the deck and keeping your butt dry. I grew up sailing a small V bottom cruising boat. I watched it slap down waves thousands of times, when the chine was heeled out of the water. I did not realize how effective this was till I sailed on other 'round bilge boats' of a similar size. Windrush tossed up waves now and then but we sailed without 'Oilskins" wet weather gear nearly always including when it was rough blowing 25 or 30 knots.
    I currently sail a boat with a chine....it does the same thing. I wear regular cloths on deck except for precipitation.

    Chine can simplify building....basically a straight bit of wood is easier to prepare than a bent or curved piece of wood. In the days of doing lofting, it was a very lot less work to loft a V bottom boat than a round bottom boat.....I have done both. More chines mean more work.

    I cannot say I have a preference. There are advantages to building with a chine or more than one. Glued lapp can be stunning. I am less enamored with multi-chine, mainly because it has none of the advantages of a chine and still looks a little crude....like it wants to be a pretty boat but misses. a pretty round bilge boat can be quite sexy

  21. #21
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Oh, if we’re motorsailing, that’s a whole different kettle of bandaids.

    Longish, narrowish moderate v double ended single chine with a ketch/yawl rig.

    Peace,
    Robert

  22. #22
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    You cannot argue with a person about looks...that is totally subjective, and bears little resemblance to function. the ugly alternative may be better or worse....even that is subjective, because the better function may work for me in my patch but not work for you in your patch. I think a boat can be designed so the chine enhances the overall looks. I really like Bolge'rs Chebacco.

    Chines nearly always have a little more drag. The added drag may be subject to speed. the main ...'chine drag' is due to water crossing the chine creating eddies, because the pressure on one side of the chine exceeds the pressure on the other side. Mr Bolger called this the "sea of peas" theory. It will generally be more pronounced if the angle of the chine is closer to 90* and diminishing as the angle increases. I think the added drag for a multi-chine boat will normally be miniscule.

    The chine can...if it more or less follows the diagonal, actually reduce drag by sorting out the eddies along the path of the water. In this case the pressure differential across the chine would be close to zero so little if any water is crossing the chine ....creating eddies

    A chine can be helpful in keeping water off the deck and keeping your butt dry. I grew up sailing a small V bottom cruising boat. I watched it slap down waves thousands of times, when the chine was heeled out of the water. I did not realize how effective this was till I sailed on other 'round bilge boats' of a similar size. Windrush tossed up waves now and then but we sailed without 'Oilskins" wet weather gear nearly always including when it was rough blowing 25 or 30 knots.
    I currently sail a boat with a chine....it does the same thing. I wear regular cloths on deck except for precipitation.

    Chine can simplify building....basically a straight bit of wood is easier to prepare than a bent or curved piece of wood. In the days of doing lofting, it was a very lot less work to loft a V bottom boat than a round bottom boat.....I have done both. More chines mean more work.

    I cannot say I have a preference. There are advantages to building with a chine or more than one. Glued lapp can be stunning. I am less enamored with multi-chine, mainly because it has none of the advantages of a chine and still looks a little crude....like it wants to be a pretty boat but misses. a pretty round bilge boat can be quite sexy
    I have owned all the types above, and in their own way, they were good looking boats. Your comment about the multichine is one i think many might share, though there can be advantages with getting water flow optimized and planking with smaller panels;one could also lap the joints, even if wide if one wanted to get away from the taped seam look. Might be more vunerable to edge damage than the others.Multi chine does lend itself to ply on stringer construction, but Vivier has done a good job making that into round shapes to, also Dix with radius chine; if i need a harder chine than can be done in ply, strip plank for the transition would do and maybe worthwhile for water flow benefits.
    I have seen a nice stern shape, but it has curves. The tought of a slab side single chine boat with a transition to a curved transom might seem a little odd, but i have seen it on many ships, obviously a difference in scale, im still working on that. I was tending away from the usual round bilge, in favour of a harder bilge, maybe not as extreme as Bolgers Romp, but that barge-like section gets more displacement for its draught than the box keel hull i built. On the single chine boats i have offshore experience with, chines can and do damp roll, compared to a barrell shaped round hull...apples and oranges.
    I dont know who voted but 5 from 5 goes to multichine/lapstrake. I shall get model building when im closer to getting the shape down on paper. Thanks for post.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Oh, if we’re motorsailing, that’s a whole different kettle of bandaids.

    Longish, narrowish moderate v double ended single chine with a ketch/yawl rig.

    Peace,
    Robert
    That recipe would work if i can have more length. I have to work in a self imposed, traffic regulated box rule of 8mx2.5m...that will 26ft x 8ft 2in. The advantage of the square back end on stabilty , loading and trim cant be escaped. Add the advantage of an intergrated boarding platform giving access to rudder, trim tab and maybe even the prop, without getting wet feet..well, hard to ignore. Sure, not as attractive as a double ender, sometimes i see practicality in itself as a beautifull thing, but that is wide open to interpretation.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    That recipe would work if i can have more length. I have to work in a self imposed, traffic regulated box rule of 8mx2.5m...that will 26ft x 8ft 2in. The advantage of the square back end on stabilty , loading and trim cant be escaped. Add the advantage of an intergrated boarding platform giving access to rudder, trim tab and maybe even the prop, without getting wet feet..well, hard to ignore. Sure, not as attractive as a double ender, sometimes i see practicality in itself as a beautifull thing, but that is wide open to interpretation.
    Dude, I am SO dumb. Now I’m finally up to speed. Duh. Hehe.

    The 26! I GET it now!

    I will try and offer helpful suggestions from here on in, now I finally understand. Hehe.

    Peace,
    Robert

  25. #25
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Dude, I am SO dumb. Now I’m finally up to speed. Duh. Hehe.

    The 26! I GET it now!

    No worries mate, heres a half size scale model, with multi chine lap sides, just to remind you.



    I will try and offer helpful suggestions from here on in, now I finally understand. Hehe.

    Peace,
    Robert
    No worries mate, heres a half size scale model, single chine with lap sides, just to remind you.




    Is it offensive? Look better as a single skin? Kind of worked for me as a compromise with the bottom, thinking it would break up what might appear to slab sided if done smooth.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    No worries mate, heres a half size scale model, single chine with lap sides, just to remind you.




    Is it offensive? Look better as a single skin? Kind of worked for me as a compromise with the bottom, thinking it would break up what might appear to slab sided if done smooth.
    Yes, now I’ve put the 2 and the other 2 together, I can see the 4. Sometimes I am very, very dense. Hehe.

    So, are we totally abandoning this concept? I like this boat, eh.

    Peace,
    Robert

  27. #27
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Yes, now I’ve put the 2 and the other 2 together, I can see the 4. Sometimes I am very, very dense. Hehe.

    So, are we totally abandoning this concept? I like this boat, eh.

    Peace,
    Robert
    Not just yet! It proved a few important points and disproved one. The bottom of the keel box is a good spot for a thick steel plate as ballast and bottom protection and gives a good walkway inside with headroom. I will get way more loaded displacement on the same draft with a flatter midsection, and the extra flatter area would be better for tankage. I just had a quick look as i recall Atkin did a box with a full section hull, NIAD



    Its a much wider keel base. The submerged transom would have to go, but i might model something along this bottom shape. Its actually got too much displacement really, needs 2000lbs of ballast to bring it down, but i could reduce the depth......or just float a bit higher!
    Its a big investment in time and money, i dont want to be second guessing my choice half way through. I could always "foam" the bottom of the "13" and give it another float and angle test. Anything more than 2ft draught on a full section body is going to end up too much. 18-20in (would need a board) is probably about right, anything much more might be tricky getting on and off the trailer. Those current lines will work, both light and fully laden, but as far as lbs-per-inch immersion/loading, a flatter midsection will have greater capacity. Im going to try and work up a deadrise type hull and see it that can work. I still have the original scale model, so something to compare against....if on a small scale.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Calito V Canelli



    Nice hull shape, the posh version of Martha Green i reckon. Too much draft for me.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Jersey blue.



    Could be lined off for lapstrake ply. Drafts about right. I will need to check what size prop that suppose to spin.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Howdy,

    Aesthetics tend to follow what is common. I remember admiring boats with Genoas - where genoas only existed because rules allowed the extra area behind the mast for free.

    We all thought it was beautiful and fast.

    But it was hideously expensive as it brought in so many different sails - Drifter, #1 Light, #1 heavy, #2, #3 even #4. And that is without staysails for cutter variants.

    It was a mistake.

    I do think the same thing happens with hull aesthetics.

    Australia and New Zealand were heavily invested in plywood construction so Chines look OK.

    However at the time we had been sold on the idea that round bilge boats like the 505 and Flying Dutchman were truly sophisticated and chines were expedient.

    So round bilge was "the right way" even here.

    Interestingly now Chines have become de rigeuer on fast boats from dinghy to supermaxis.



    Just as Genoas on "fast boats" meant that every cruiser racer had to invest in an absurd number of headsails and spinnakers, despite a big main and small jib being much more efficient in cost, sailing and crew terms because it was taken to be aesthetically superior.

    I think we are just about to see something of the type happen with chines on mainstream boats.

    MIK

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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    Skaraborg
    There is another option I advocated throughout my career as a boat designer. It's the trapezoidal bottom, double chines. By adding the chines correctly you get almost the same characteristics as a round bottom hull. In addition, there is a possibility of surfing in a completely different way than with the round bottom. The V-bottom is the worst option with a high wet surface and lowest stability.

    JS
    Last edited by 457277; 12-26-2017 at 10:45 AM.
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    Default Re: single chine, multi chine lapstrake or smooth round hull for motorsailer?

    @MIK, thanks for your input. Im sure like most things, "fashion" does have a role to play when selling a product to the masses, but hard science data is hard to ignore. I recall someone telling me how the water disturbance from my single chine cutter would cause drag, and how a multi-chine or round bilge would be a better performer.....but we crossed a large portion of the Bay of Biscay in 3 days flying a chute and maintaining above hull speed. Would a multi or round bilge have performed better? Quite possibly, but i think that extra margin of performance would have been as much as an advantage as the so called drag from the single chine. There are many ways to gain that extra 1/8th of a knot, i can not say i have tried hard to achieve it, i dont feel that need.

    @457277, Haj Jurgen. Wetted surface area, no getting away from that. I note you have a tunnel stern hull with good operational statistics. The box keel does allow for a flatter shaft angle, and i think something worth aiming for. I may line off the "Jersey Blue" hull, now i have the offsets, but the transom needs sorting to make any kind of sense under sail. A hull designed to do both is always going to be a compromise, more so with weight and draft limitations.....so it goes. I would have thought your " långfärdsbåt" would be popular, given its economy. Thanks for your reply.

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