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Thread: Trumps Christian support

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    Default Trumps Christian support

    Seems an odd bed-fellow; a adulterous, multi-married, mysogynistic abuser, supported by the Fundamentalists (and many others). This opinion piece offers some insights.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/o...l-right-region
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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    An excerpt:

    ''
    That first jab at P.O.W.s persuaded me, a staunch social conservative, that Mr. Trump wasn’t qualified for the office he sought. A loudmouth who denigrates war heroes, I knew, doesn’t belong in the White House.

    Yet I watched with dismay as many evangelicals and social conservatives — people I consider allies — embraced him. How could they back a candidate who obviously didn’t care a whit for basic decency, let alone religious tradition?

    The question of how social conservatives should practice politics in the age of Trump has resurfaced as Alabamians are poised to elect Roy Moore to the Senate. The likes of Mr. Trump and Mr. Moore promise social conservatives an appealing menu of policies and judicial nominations. Their offer is especially attractive after a decade during which the left embraced a new, aggressive mode of secular progressivism and continued its war against tradition long after it had won most courtroom and ballot-box battles.''
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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    George, there are some things in that article that simply don't add up. For instance:

    The cascading harassment scandal, for one thing, suggests that even liberals may rethink some aspects of the sexual revolution. And if ultra-permissive liberalism is passing away, then the people who grew up in its wreckage will eventually turn toward tradition.
    Granted, the pendulum swings, but sexual harassment has NOTHING to do with liberal sexual permissiveness.

    A careful reading of that article demonstrates the misassociations that some conservatives make in their failed attempts to understand change.

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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Oh, I agree entirely. This is simply the first article I've read that I thought provided some insights into why christians would even consider supporting someone like Trump, Moore, and others of their ilk.

    'Deal with the Devil' isn't far off.
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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    "Deal with the Devil" indeed. The guy is the perfect Anti-Christ.
    "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Alice

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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    I think ascribing any kind of rationality to this voting pattern is overstating the case. Research indicates that people largely vote according to their tribal identity, full stop. These people do not identify as liberal Democrats, they identify as conservative Republicans. That's all that matters.

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    The author is an interesting guy - Sohrab Ahmari, an Iranian-born convert to Roman Catholicism, writer for Commentary magazine. What he misses (and it's not surprising) is white resentment. That, I think, tips the balance.
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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    "But any of the other 16 non-vulgar, non-erratic Republican candidates in 2016 would also have nominated a Gorsuch."

    I didn't find the piece as enlightening as I'd hoped. It read to me like the author shared my own bewilderment. Felt it more strongly, FWIW, because the author self-identified as a strong social Conservative.

    The proffered answer was, I think, simply that there's fear among socially conservative religious folks that the world is becoming fairly aggressively atheistic/agnostic as it becomes technological and "progressive." They're afraid that the modernizing world will entirely reject the "traditional values" that the social conservatives feel were "baked into" the Constitution, and underpin whatever good things there are within the society Americans have built.

    But the answer to all that fear ... can't be to reject the values themselves. Which, let's be perfectly clear, is the choice which has been offered in Trump and Moore - the choice which even the author of this Op-Ed identifies and which was the cause of putting pixel to paper. As our friend Sky Blue has reminded us over and over again, the people who voted for Trump knowingly chose to vote for an immoral person, by social conservative values. Blue has told us that this means the GOP is no longer attempting to be the party of Jesus, Babies and Guns, is no longer staking out a "moral high ground." Trump was a known liar of world-class proportions, a world-class misogynist with at least a dozen accusers on the record. A world class serial philanderer, whose brand was built partly by his high-profile affairs (Marla Maples) and his self-promotion of the same in stints on Howard Stern etc.

    Roy Moore wraps himself in a particular blanket of social-conservative evangelical Christiosity, which we've discussed here at length - IMO, it's a noxious heresy. Itself suggestive of the existence of a malevolent will (really).

    What I'd hoped that the opinion piece would do is explain how Moore's supporters - who Mickey despairingly notes are in many respects "good people" - are trying to retain that "goodness" by voting for what they know is the opposite of it. By voting for behaviour they'd never tolerate in their own family or from a work colleague. By voting in ways which vindicate personal immorality, somehow in the hope of recovering exactly the personal morality which Trump (and Moore) have defiantly ground underfoot.

    All I heard from the piece is pain. Pain at being afraid of the same gradual elimination of social conservative religiosity from meaningful public life, but also pain at the execrable and futile "solution" which other social conservatives cleave to - because the author is honest enough to recognize that it's no solution at all.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    It is the same as all of the other reactionary arguments.
    No one is forcing them to have an abortion, no one is forcing them into a same sex marriage, and no one is going to stop them practising their religion.
    But they have been made too afraid that the sky is falling to think rational thoughts.
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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Yeah, it does seem to be about making other people live the way they think they should live themselves.

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    No one is forcing them to have an abortion, no one is forcing them into a same sex marriage, and no one is going to stop them practising their religion.
    Sorry, Nick, but I think I've said this before - you really cannot lump those things together. Those who view abortion as murder, right or wrong, are acting to save another life. Those that oppose same sex marriage are interfering with the decision of two consenting adults. There is a tremendous difference there and liberals will never move the Christian right so long as they cannot understand that.

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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    I don't see the distinction. The key phrase is "those who view", and the reason it is key is that not everyone shares their views. They are welcome to try to persuade people to adopt their views; they are not welcome to impose them.

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    No, nobody's forcing them to have an abortion, to have a same-sex marriage, to switch the bathroom they use (or watch anyone else going pee), etc.

    But think of it in terms of "herd immunity," perhaps. An epidemiologist will tell you that the mumps or polio won't get a foothold if a bit over 90% of the population who would otherwise be vulnerable to being infected ... has either been vaccinated or has already developed antibodies some other way. So in order to keep the "good" of a mumps and polio free population - a "good" which accrues even to the few who aren't vaccinated or who didn't develop antibodies - it means you need to keep adherence to the vaccination program really high.

    I think that social conservatives petrified by the decline in the popular expression of and adherence to a number of social values. Values which they think are required at "herd immunity" levels within a population, if that population is to thrive. And that the new Atheists and Agnostics are to that kind of social "herd immunity" what anti-vaxxers are to worrying increases in Mumps infections.

    The values they see declining are still things which in our discussions here in the forum, virtually all of us still tend to think are valuable, btw. Honesty. Civility. Willingness to protect someone who's being bullied. Love of one's country, and of one's family. The actual virtue of doing hard work and making a contribution to society, rather than taking handouts or living off trust-funds. These are the kind of "quaint" values we recognize (and somewhat romanticize) in "The Greatest Generation," but which we'd still like to think define us.

    And social conservatives see a whole lot of the weirdnesses in academia, in identity-group politics (whether race or sexual orientation or etc.), in the media ... as challenges to those values. As chipping away at "well, that isn't really love of your country" or "well, that isn't really virtue" or "well, discipline and self-control isn't really necessary in this sector." And are they entirely wrong? Anyone gonna argue that our society's moral fibre has been strengthened by providing ever-greater opportunities for casinos and other types of gambling? By an ever decreasing proportion of kids having the same grown-ups involved in and largely focused on raising them, throughout their childhood and adolescence? Anyone want to argue that it's better for seniors to live out their final 10 years or so in institutions, visited little by their families and mostly cared for by folks who are badly paid - many of whom (in Canada at least) left their own families across the world to come and work here doing a job no Canadian really wants, while sending money back to feed their own kids/parents.

    On the contrary - our society has, for a variety of reasons (many of which are excellent!) increasingly focused on the rights and desires of individual, autonomous adults. A "libertarianism" which is as common on the R as on the L, and which tends to downplay a relational obligations within a community, in favour of a curated individual life. And we're suffering for it, while also experiencing increases in consumer goods diversification and curated entertainment, luxuries which pacify us and suggest that the sacrifices weren't meaningful.

    Social conservatives have the wrong solution - and cleave to the wrong versions of inoculation, the wrong romanticized versions of what "the good life" ought to look like ... but what they're seeing and being frightened by is actual fearful. Is actually causing massive disruptions in our society, suffered first by the people who aren't participants in the economic engines driving it all.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    The author is an interesting guy - Sohrab Ahmari, an Iranian-born convert to Roman Catholicism, writer for Commentary magazine. What he misses (and it's not surprising) is white resentment. That, I think, tips the balance.
    Personally I think that's a huge part of it. At all times I wish these gun killings would stop, but in some cases there were lessons there to learn that got passed over that were too valuable to lose. Dylan Roof (sic?), the guy who shot the members of the congregation at the church in South Carolina made a comment 'if we don't stop THEM they will take everything we've got'. When I read that I was looking at a photo of this guy that looked like a meth head, squatting in front of a single-wide with a Confederate battle flag, and my first thought was 'who in the heck WANTS anything you've got?', but someone or something got it into his head that the black community was responsible for his miserable life, for him not being able to get ahead in life.

    In Alabama we have a saying: 'thank goodness for Mississippi'. The point being that in almost any kind of measurement of standard of living it's either my state or Mississippi that comes in last. I think that for a lot of older, or poorer whites, the idea of the black community rising above them, becoming better educated than they are, getting the better job, living in the nicer home or driving the nicer vehicle, well, they just don't handle it that well. Trump and his cronies have preyed upon that fear and anger. The comparison between Trump and Hitler IS real. It's very real, and it is terrifying to consider that these people really and truly believe that they can roll back the decades of progress we have made as a country.

    But apparently, they do.

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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Sorry, Nick, but I think I've said this before - you really cannot lump those things together. Those who view abortion as murder, right or wrong, are acting to save another life. Those that oppose same sex marriage are interfering with the decision of two consenting adults. There is a tremendous difference there and liberals will never move the Christian right so long as they cannot understand that.
    My point still stands. No one is forcing you, Mr Smith, to have an abortion so your personal beliefs are being respected. If you were Ms Smith I would protect you from others who want to interfere in your control of your own body.
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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    No one is forcing you, Nick, to get a Mumps vaccine. And lots of folks are deciding that they don't want their kids to have one. As a direct result, there are upswings in Mumps infection rates, and significant initiatives from some governments to restrict a parent's choice to not vaccinate their kids.

    What you're not understanding, is that to the social conservatives ... this is that. Really.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    I don't see the distinction. The key phrase is "those who view", and the reason it is key is that not everyone shares their views. They are welcome to try to persuade people to adopt their views; they are not welcome to impose them.
    If you are walking the street and you see one person raise a gun to the head of another, are you morally obligated to take action? Or, is it none of your business?

    This is the abortion issue. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but this is the issue. Until liberals can see that viewpoint they will never convince even one Christian conservative to change their view on any issue including gay rights because we (you, Nick, others) choose to lump them together needlessly.

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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post

    On the contrary - our society has, for a variety of reasons (many of which are excellent!) increasingly focused on the rights and desires of individual, autonomous adults. A "libertarianism" which is as common on the R as on the L, and which tends to downplay a relational obligations within a community, in favour of a curated individual life. And we're suffering for it, while also experiencing increases in consumer goods diversification and curated entertainment, luxuries which pacify us and suggest that the sacrifices weren't meaningful.
    There is an argument that that could be genetic, that the process of colonising a virgin "empty" land selected for the genes that coded for self sufficiency and libertarian type traits.

    Sad really as it has lead to lawlessness and a callous disregard for other peoples well being.

    It may be that an inward looking isolationism, where nothing from beyond the US coast is valid or worthy of consideration might come with that as well. Bigly sad.
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 12-07-2017 at 12:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    . . . but someone or something got it into his head that the black community was responsible for his miserable life, for him not being able to get ahead in life.
    That's been the strategy of the southern upper classes since the beginning of the republic, now generalized to include much of the country - and the old south has always been far less egalitarian in both wealth distribution and ideology than elsewhere. The most downtrodden white guy can console himself that at least he's not black (or Mexican, in the 21st century), and won't resent the guy who owns the farm or the mine or the cotton mill too much.

    This is the abortion issue. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but this is the issue. Until liberals can see that viewpoint they will never convince even one Christian conservative to change their view on any issue including gay rights because we (you, Nick, others) choose to lump them together needlessly.
    I do understand that point of view, all too well. Folks think that allowing abortion is equivalent to allowing the murder of two-year-olds. The problem is that there can be no compromise with that kind of thinking. If an abortion really is murder, one must oppose it to one's dying breath, and I'm only surprised that there haven't been more murders of doctors and violent attacks on abortion clinics. If someone sincerely believes that, then the only recourse is to crush them entirely; to keep them far, far from any power to influence the law.

    But this is guaranteed to derail the thread; we'd best take it elsewhere if it's worth rehashing.
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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Social conservatives have the wrong solution - and cleave to the wrong versions of inoculation, the wrong romanticized versions of what "the good life" ought to look like ... but what they're seeing and being frightened by is actual fearful. Is actually causing massive disruptions in our society, suffered first by the people who aren't participants in the economic engines driving it all.
    On this much, we are agreed. I think there are arguments to be made that allowing gay people to marry and have families increases family and community stability, and that ensuring that all children are borne by women who want them does the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    If you are walking the street and you see one person raise a gun to the head of another, are you morally obligated to take action? Or, is it none of your business?
    That depends a great deal upon context. Is the action of the gun wielder sanctioned by societal rules, as it would be when she is acting in her designated role as a peace officer? If not, is the action about to take place an actual crime? I would remind you that murder is, but abortion is not. This is not to say that the majority is always right... but the minority is sometimes wrong.

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    No one is forcing you, Nick, to get a Mumps vaccine. And lots of folks are deciding that they don't want their kids to have one. As a direct result, there are upswings in Mumps infection rates, and significant initiatives from some governments to restrict a parent's choice to not vaccinate their kids.

    What you're not understanding, is that to the social conservatives ... this is that. Really.
    It is a different way of thinking.
    Mumps, unwanted pregnancy and at worst the case of the doctor who died due to Irish Catholic anti abortion laws are social ills. One mode of thought is that socially responsible members of society do what they can to improve matters by advocating and persuading the need for vaccination/legally controlled abortion. That is why the doctor who caused the MRI debacle was sanctioned.

    Others pitch their level of how social responsibility plays out at a different level. That is their right, but it stops at the end of their nose. Society forms a collective consensus of where the line should be drawn and we must all accept it.

    On the issue of governments legislating on issues like mumps vaccination, the UK has not found the need to yet, but we did legislate on motor bike helmets to lessen the social ills due to the social and financial costs of head injuries. That was right and proper. If a failure to vaccinate causes a similar social ill, it may yet come to legislation.
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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I do understand that point of view, all too well. Folks think that allowing abortion is equivalent to allowing the murder of two-year-olds. The problem is that there can be no compromise with that kind of thinking. If an abortion really is murder, one must oppose it to one's dying breath, and I'm only surprised that there haven't been more murders of doctors and violent attacks on abortion clinics. If someone sincerely believes that, then the only recourse is to crush them entirely; to keep them far, far from any power to influence the law.
    Yes, that is right. However, if you make a list of unrelated issues, as was done above, and argue gay rights in the same breath as abortion rights to someone who views abortion in that manner, you will only convince them that gay rights is morally wrong because they already view abortion as murder. That is my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    That depends a great deal upon context. Is the action of the gun wielder sanctioned by societal rules, as it would be when she is acting in her designated role as a peace officer? If not, is the action about to take place an actual crime? I would remind you that murder is, but abortion is not. This is not to say that the majority is always right... but the minority is sometimes wrong.
    You know full well what I'm asking and you are avoiding the question.

    Moreover, this is not about right or wrong. It is about understanding the other point of view so that you can argue effectively. You don't.

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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Sorry, Nick, but I think I've said this before - you really cannot lump those things together. Those who view abortion as murder, right or wrong, are acting to save another life. Those that oppose same sex marriage are interfering with the decision of two consenting adults. There is a tremendous difference there and liberals will never move the Christian right so long as they cannot understand that.
    I do not wish to convince or change the minds of people who wish to conflate abortion with murder anymore than I want to change their religious beliefs. They can believe whatever they want, eternal life, holy trinity, snake handling, divination of entrails, etc. What I will do is ensure as best I can their beliefs do not translate into law by supporting candidates and organizations that help womens health.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Yes, that is right. However, if you make a list of unrelated issues, as was done above, and argue gay rights in the same breath as abortion rights to someone who views abortion in that manner, you will only convince them that gay rights is morally wrong because they already view abortion as murder. That is my point.
    There is an irony that in the English Anglican Church abortion is not much of an issue, whilst same sex marriage and the ordination of women is really divisive.

    A different sort of devout?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Yes, that is right. However, if you make a list of unrelated issues, as was done above, and argue gay rights in the same breath as abortion rights to someone who views abortion in that manner, you will only convince them that gay rights is morally wrong because they already view abortion as murder. That is my point.



    Moreover, this is not about right or wrong. It is about understanding the other point of view so that you can argue effectively. You don't.
    What is to understand? One group conflates abortion with murder. It’s completely wrongheaded but that’s their belief. There is no need to argue their belief. There is a need to prevent them from imposing their beliefs on others. There is a need to prevent them from harassing women going to clinics. There is a need to prevent people who LITERALLY believe that doctors and health professionals are MURDERERS from harming those people in clinics. Some people literally believe the Bible and can easily justify preventing a murderer using lethal means. All that is easily understood and requires no argument but action.

    I disagree lumping gay rights and abortion together, however incorrect that is, will lead anti-abortionists to be anti-gay. Folks with such supposedly strong beliefs arent going to swing in the wind according to someone elses arguments.

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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Yes, that is right. However, if you make a list of unrelated issues, as was done above, and argue gay rights in the same breath as abortion rights to someone who views abortion in that manner, you will only convince them that gay rights is morally wrong because they already view abortion as murder. That is my point.
    OK, but the only connection between gay rights and abortion is that religious conservative get excited about both of them. The left doesn't connect the two issues, except that they're opposed by the same people. I seriously doubt that we're going to change anyone's mind even a little by not mentioning abortion and same-sex marriage in the same paragraph.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    A different sort of devout?
    I suppose. Trying to unravel every flavor of Christianity is more than I can manage. I do think that whoever we speak with and whatever the topic, it is a good idea to understand the other side. I don't think liberals do a very good job of this and I don't think that today's flavor of conservatives even try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Yes, that is right. However, if you make a list of unrelated issues, as was done above, and argue gay rights in the same breath as abortion rights to someone who views abortion in that manner, you will only convince them that gay rights is morally wrong because they already view abortion as murder. That is my point.



    You know full well what I'm asking and you are avoiding the question.

    Moreover, this is not about right or wrong. It is about understanding the other point of view so that you can argue effectively. You don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    What is to understand? One group conflates abortion with murder. It’s completely wrongheaded but that’s their belief. There is no need to argue their belief. There is a need to prevent them from imposing their beliefs on others. There is a need to prevent them from harassing women going to clinics. There is a need to prevent people who LITERALLY believe that doctors and health professionals are MURDERERS from harming those people in clinics. Some people literally believe the Bible and can easily justify preventing a murderer using lethal means. All that is easily understood and requires no argument but action.

    I disagree lumping gay rights and abortion together, however incorrect that is, will lead anti-abortionists to be anti-gay. Folks with such supposedly strong beliefs arent going to swing in the wind according to someone elses arguments.

    I don't see any room for a compromise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    You know full well what I'm asking and you are avoiding the question.
    No, I'm trying to show that the question as formulated does not address the complexities of the real-life abortion situation.

    What are you doing about it?




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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    On this much, we are agreed. I think there are arguments to be made that allowing gay people to marry and have families increases family and community stability, and that ensuring that all children are borne by women who want them does the same...
    Sure. When it comes to abortion, for instance, I make no bones about understanding that it's killing. Killing a zygote is different from killing a toddler or 2-month old baby, but it's killing. The difference is that working Child Welfare files and spending years with people who had horrible, abusive, massively neglectful families of origin has made me very aware of the costs people pay all through their lives for REALLY not being wanted. In some cases (though not all, by any stretch), I feel like an abortion is a tragic choice, but less painful than the likely alternative.

    I think that marriage done well is a very fine thing indeed, and I wish its blessings and comforts on anybody who decides they want to embark on the challenge, regardless of orientation. But other than orientation, a "marriage" is a "marriage," and the provisions for what constitutes it are longstanding and clear. It ain't easy, and there are other kinds of relationships that folks can have instead, if the requirements of a "marriage" are more than they wish to take on.

    Again, to my mind the key thing is not the adults involved, but the obligations which emerge when children are part of the mix. Whatever the gender or orientation of the adults in the marriage. Once kids are present, a marriage is not primarily about the grown-ups feeling empowered or heartened or sexually gratified. It's about that, for sure, but those things are contributing factors in a relationship which has now taken on the primary responsibility of growing solid and well-founded kids. Part of that is showing the kids how to have a great romantic relationship with the other adult - and part of it is sucking things up and choosing a decent relationship with that person even when you get bored or hurt, because the welfare of the kid is more important. You need to be the grown-up, after all, and not displace the pain onto the kid's experience.

    I have lost track of the number of kids I've been with over the years whose lives were blasted to hell by parents who simply couldn't stop having serial monogamy, and figured that one set of parents was as good as another for the kid, so long as nobody was getting sexually abused. It's a lie. Those kids got damaged by the grownups' choices. And they'll have to live with that damage - damage to their own capacity to commit in intimate relationships and to be altruistic parents - either by reproducing it or by taking on the work of being the generation which turns a corner.

    I have no illusions that hetero couples are better at this than same-sex couples simply as a factor of their orientation. I will say, though, that observing a lesbian family member go through serial monogamy now for 30 years or so, that her partner's children never really became her children - for all that they all pretended so at the time. That biology most often really matters in terms of bonding (though I can give a tremendously inspiring example of an exception to that rule), and the kids know it in their bones.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    A tangent, but useful:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/07/o...l-right-region

    Just as Masterpiece Cakeshop is about far more than bakers and their creative expression, this case transcends the subject of abortion. The First Amendment question it presents is doctrinally complex but can fairly be boiled down to this: when is it unconstitutional to require an entity that deals with the public to tell its customers the truth?

    At issue are requirements that a 2015 California law imposes on “crisis pregnancy centers,” described in the legislative record as places that “pose as full-service women’s health clinics, but aim to discourage and prevent women from seeking abortions” through “intentionally deceptive advertising and counseling practices.”
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    ^@ Tom Interesting testimony.
    Which leads to the question: do kids do better with a single parent, or a serial monogamist for a parent?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  33. #33
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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Sure. When it comes to abortion, for instance, I make no bones about understanding that it's killing. Killing a zygote is different from killing a toddler or 2-month old baby, but it's killing.
    Well, sure. But in that sense, so is removing a tumour.

    The thing today's Republicans forget is that at the time of Roe v Wade, most Republicans favoured legal abortions, because the alternatives were worse. Of course, the alternatives are still worse. I'd prefer not to return to the days of back-alley coat hangers and unwanted children because a vocal minority have trouble distinguishing between a lump of developing tissue and a person, or because they persist in believing that humanity has a magical component that somehow mysteriously appears at conception despite their complete inability to offer evidence of its existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    to my mind the key thing is not the adults involved, but the obligations which emerge when children are part of the mix. (...) biology most often really matters in terms of bonding
    Agreed on both counts.

    What are you doing about it?




  34. #34
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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Having read all of that link my view that the Amendments to your constitution really do allow your SCOTUS to totally screw you up is confirmed and reinforced.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  35. #35
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    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    ^@ Tom Interesting testimony.
    Which leads to the question: do kids do better with a single parent, or a serial monogamist for a parent?
    I think, frankly, that if the single parent has a network around her/him (parents, siblings, deep lifelong friends) that they often do better. I know single parents who've done stunning parenting.

    There is still a loss - they can't be 2 grownups at once, sharing the work and responsibility and trading off when one grownup is having a rotten day. But the kid will grow up more secure that they were loved, that they mattered, that they are intrinsically valuable. And as a result, the kid inculcates the notion that if they're intrinsically valuable, then there should be some ground rules for how their own relationships ought to look. There are some reasons to be hopeful and ambitious for the future, and do genuine self-investment in education or skills or etc. Because somebody who you respect, whose opinion and judgment you respect, saw something in you.

    BTW, these are "resiliency factors" that you'll find in studies of why certain kids thrived, and others didn't - whatever their socioeconomic or demographic backgrounds. One of the key things that any grownup can do is to simply love the hell out of a few kids. Because your intervention, your love, your illumination of their intrinsic value, is a helluva resource to that kid. A statistically measurable one.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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