Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 36 to 53 of 53

Thread: Trumps Christian support

  1. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    45,267

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    #8. TomF.
    "The proffered answer was, I think, simply that there's fear among socially conservative religious folks that the world is becoming fairly aggressively atheistic/agnostic as it becomes technological and "progressive." They're afraid that the modernizing world will entirely reject the "traditional values" that the social conservatives feel were "baked into" the Constitution, and underpin whatever good things there are within the society Americans have built."

    I think that at base here they are scared that they may have been wrong about their beliefs, the available evidence being to the contrary, and they are scrambling to shore up a crumbling edifice.

  2. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    32,590

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    #8. TomF.
    "The proffered answer was, I think, simply that there's fear among socially conservative religious folks that the world is becoming fairly aggressively atheistic/agnostic as it becomes technological and "progressive." They're afraid that the modernizing world will entirely reject the "traditional values" that the social conservatives feel were "baked into" the Constitution, and underpin whatever good things there are within the society Americans have built."

    I think that at base here they are scared that they may have been wrong about their beliefs, the available evidence being to the contrary, and they are scrambling to shore up a crumbling edifice.
    Speaking as a Christian, I figure they've got reason to fear that they were wrong.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  3. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    35,797

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    I think, frankly, that if the single parent has a network around her/him (parents, siblings, deep lifelong friends) that they often do better. I know single parents who've done stunning parenting.

    There is still a loss - they can't be 2 grownups at once, sharing the work and responsibility and trading off when one grownup is having a rotten day. But the kid will grow up more secure that they were loved, that they mattered, that they are intrinsically valuable. And as a result, the kid inculcates the notion that if they're intrinsically valuable, then there should be some ground rules for how their own relationships ought to look. There are some reasons to be hopeful and ambitious for the future, and do genuine self-investment in education or skills or etc. Because somebody who you respect, whose opinion and judgment you respect, saw something in you.

    BTW, these are "resiliency factors" that you'll find in studies of why certain kids thrived, and others didn't - whatever their socioeconomic or demographic backgrounds. One of the key things that any grownup can do is to simply love the hell out of a few kids. Because your intervention, your love, your illumination of their intrinsic value, is a helluva resource to that kid. A statistically measurable one.
    Yes, two things perhaps.
    The parent is not distracted/pulled two ways and so focusses better.
    Stability is far better for kids than churn.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  4. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    46,712

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    That biology most often really matters in terms of bonding (though I can give a tremendously inspiring example of an exception to that rule), and the kids know it in their bones.
    Well maybe . . . biology certainly has a large effect, but perhaps not in the way one might think. Neither my kids nor Zoe the Wonder Girl are any more genetically related to me than they are to you. But you're exactly right about the commitment required to raise children.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  5. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Winnipeg MB
    Posts
    15,311

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    BTW, these are "resiliency factors" that you'll find in studies of why certain kids thrived, and others didn't - whatever their socioeconomic or demographic backgrounds. One of the key things that any grownup can do is to simply love the hell out of a few kids. Because your intervention, your love, your illumination of their intrinsic value, is a helluva resource to that kid. A statistically measurable one.
    Tom, are you familiar with Dr Martin Brokenleg and his work on resiliency?

    What are you doing about it?




  6. #41
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    32,590

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Yeah. The exceptional example I mentioned ... Ian, the father of my 19 year old son's best friend. Known him since the two lads were in pre-school together.

    The mom in question was extraordinarily pretty, and very wild. M was the son she had with her high-school boyfriend (by then long gone), but she was now in a relationship with Ian, pregnant with their daughter. 2 years after the daughter was born, she and Ian broke up and she moved on ... a few years of rather hard living, another pregnancy, and by now she's seemed to have found some ground under her feet. For which I'm grateful - I can't help but feel that one thing that helped was a bit of aging, and the bloom coming off her rose with 3 pregnancies and some hard living. By now, she's done a lot to become a solid (if still pretty self-focused) person.

    But Ian - he's been the only father that M has ever known, and has done a brilliant job of it. Never a question of commitment, of moral or financial or any other kind of support - never a question of whether there was a home that would miss him terribly if he wasn't in it. We've friends who kept talking about this great guy whose house had a backyard that met theirs at a corner, and how great this guy was with their kids ... and how awestruck they were with how good this young guy was with his own. Then we discovered it was Ian they were talking about.

    Again - Ian was set up to be a great dad because his own mother and siblings lived in town. For a while, he and his mom shared her house, and she spelled off in the childrearing. It was his network of support that helped him do that stunning job. Now he's married and has another little kid with his bride. Part of the package, for her, was that she needed to know that she was marrying his family.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  7. #42
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    32,590

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    Tom, are you familiar with Dr Martin Brokenleg and his work on resiliency?
    No, I wasn't .. though damn, looks like someone whose ideas I want to dig into. Interesting that he and I seem to have spent some time at similar places, though in different eras. He's retired from the Vancouver School of Theology for instance ... but wasn't there when I was a student there about 30 years ago.

    I'm fascinated and heartened by his deep use of his indigenous First Nations traditions, in ways which seem very consistent with how a couple of Elders here are also doing. Also interesting to see him self-identify as Anglican.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  8. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    46,712

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Ian sounds like a sterling example of humanity.

    OTOH, there's a rather nauseating evolutionary factor; among many of our our primate relatives, when a new male displaces another and takes over his harem, he usually kills all the children by the previous father. The rates of child abuse and child murder by stepfathers among humans are hundreds of times that by other parents.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  9. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    735

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Interesting that there are all the old stories about evil step-mothers as well. Cinderella, etc.

  10. #45
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    21,861

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    For a while, he and his mom shared her house, and she spelled off in the childrearing. It was his network of support that helped him do that stunning job.
    I often wonder if our society would have fewer problems if we maintained more extended family structures. We tend to move a lot for work and relatives become the occasional holiday experience. I think we lose something due to that.

    Then again, my family is 400 miles away, so I'm guilty of doing the same thing.

  11. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    35,797

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Ian sounds like a sterling example of humanity.

    OTOH, there's a rather nauseating evolutionary factor; among many of our our primate relatives, when a new male displaces another and takes over his harem, he usually kills all the children by the previous father. The rates of child abuse and child murder by stepfathers among humans are hundreds of times that by other parents.
    Quote Originally Posted by robm View Post
    Interesting that there are all the old stories about evil step-mothers as well. Cinderella, etc.
    Then again, consider how Walking Marriages work in China.
    The children are bought up in the mothers family, her brothers taking the male role in their upbringing.

    May be the issues of step parents are a hang over from the strict inheritance customs in middle age Europe.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  12. #47
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    32,590

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    And I have met some of those evil step-parents firsthand, back in my child welfare days. Men who physically and/or sexually abused their new partners' kids. Worse, men who got with that woman in part so that they'd have access to her daughter(s) and/or son(s) for his own stuff.

    And y'know, even going back 2 generations in my own family of origin, my father was the child from my grandmother's second marriage - her first husband drowned in a pond at a Church picnic, would you believe. But she'd had 2 daughters from her first marriage, who were about 12 and 14 when my grandmother remarried. My grandfather, their stepfather, gave each of them reason to leave home as soon as they could, though they couldn't bring themselves to talk about his molesting until the man was 20 years dead. Ahem.

    The genes are there for each of us, somewhere. It's a matter of what we express, the resources we've been able to access that help us to be the men we aspire to be. And the culture in which we find ourselves, which helps describe what those aspirations could look like.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  13. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    45,267

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I often wonder if our society would have fewer problems if we maintained more extended family structures. We tend to move a lot for work and relatives become the occasional holiday experience. I think we lose something due to that.

    Then again, my family is 400 miles away, so I'm guilty of doing the same thing.
    Deliberately dictated by capitalism and industrialisation to break the primary loyalties from the family group and attatch it to industrial jobs.
    Now the industrial jobs are in China and 3rd world countries it is happening there, and is becoming redundant in 1st world countries as communications and automation have their effect.

    I am doing contract work via my Mac from my tree house, where only 5 years ago I would have had to go int the office to do the same.

  14. #49
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    46,712

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    The genes are there for each of us, somewhere. It's a matter of what we express, the resources we've been able to access that help us to be the men we aspire to be. And the culture in which we find ourselves, which helps describe what those aspirations could look like.
    Exactly. Evolutionary psychology will tell us why we may want to do certain things. Whether we actually do them or not, we have to decide.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  15. #50
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    42,103

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    I don't see any room for a compromise.
    There isn’t. When a “Christian” tells me I will go to Hell because I dont believe X, Y, Z my response is pretty simple. “in your mind”. But when they say “you must...” I say “nope”. No compromise. They can do all they want to reinforce their beliefs but when they want to spread it around through the legal process or in direct action they will get resistance. I will not compromise.

  16. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,321

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post

    I think that social conservatives petrified by the decline in the popular expression of and adherence to a number of social values. Values which they think are required at "herd immunity" levels within a population, if that population is to thrive. And that the new Atheists and Agnostics are to that kind of social "herd immunity" what anti-vaxxers are to worrying increases in Mumps infections.

    The values they see declining are still things which in our discussions here in the forum, virtually all of us still tend to think are valuable, btw. Honesty. Civility. Willingness to protect someone who's being bullied. Love of one's country, and of one's family. The actual virtue of doing hard work and making a contribution to society, rather than taking handouts or living off trust-funds. These are the kind of "quaint" values we recognize (and somewhat romanticize) in "The Greatest Generation," but which we'd still like to think define us.
    I'm sorry, this makes no sense to me. If they value honesty, civility, and protecting people from bullies, they would not support Trump, who is a lying, abusive bully. If they cared about love of one's country, they'd care that Trump seems to be in Putin's pocket. If they cared about hard work instead of living off trust funds, they'd be against abolishing the inheritance tax. None of those things are reasons for Christians to support Trump.

    As to abortion, that was not a major issue in Evangelical churches as recently as the early 1970s.

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...origins-107133

    Today, evangelicals make up the backbone of the pro-life movement, but it hasn’t always been so. Both before and for several years after Roe, evangelicals were overwhelmingly indifferent to the subject, which they considered a “Catholic issue.” In 1968, for instance, a symposium sponsored by the Christian Medical Society and Christianity Today, the flagship magazine of evangelicalism, refused to characterize abortion as sinful, citing “individual health, family welfare, and social responsibility” as justifications for ending a pregnancy. In 1971, delegates to the Southern Baptist Convention in St. Louis, Missouri, passed a resolution encouraging “Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother.” The convention, hardly a redoubt of liberal values, reaffirmed that position in 1974, one year after Roe, and again in 1976.


    When the Roe decision was handed down, W. A. Criswell, the Southern Baptist Convention’s former president and pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas—also one of the most famous fundamentalists of the 20th century—was pleased: “I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person,” he said, “and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed.”

    So, no, although some opposed abortion, most did not.

    From the same article:
    In May 1969, a group of African-American parents in Holmes County, Mississippi, sued the Treasury Department to prevent three new whites-only K-12 private academies from securing full tax-exempt status, arguing that their discriminatory policies prevented them from being considered “charitable” institutions. The schools had been founded in the mid-1960s in response to the desegregation of public schools set in motion by the Brown v. Board of Education decision of 1954. In 1969, the first year of desegregation, the number of white students enrolled in public schools in Holmes County dropped from 771 to 28; the following year, that number fell to zero.


    In Green v. Kennedy (David Kennedy was secretary of the treasury at the time), decided in January 1970, the plaintiffs won a preliminary injunction, which denied the “segregation academies” tax-exempt status until further review. In the meantime, the government was solidifying its position on such schools. Later that year, President Richard Nixon ordered the Internal Revenue Service to enact a new policy denying tax exemptions to all segregated schools in the United States. Under the provisions of Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, which forbade racial segregation and discrimination, discriminatory schools were not—by definition—“charitable” educational organizations, and therefore they had no claims to tax-exempt status; similarly, donations to such organizations would no longer qualify as tax-deductible contributions.

    So, how did that become opposition to abortion? Further down in the article:

    Paul Weyrich, the late religious conservative political activist and co-founder of the Heritage Foundation, saw his opening.

    In the decades following World War II, evangelicals, especially white evangelicals in the North, had drifted toward the Republican Party—inclined in that direction by general Cold War anxieties, vestigial suspicions of Catholicism and well-known evangelist Billy Graham’s very public friendship with Dwight Eisenhower and Richard Nixon. Despite these predilections, though, evangelicals had largely stayed out of the political arena, at least in any organized way. If he could change that, Weyrich reasoned, their large numbers would constitute a formidable voting bloc—one that he could easily marshal behind conservative causes.


    “The new political philosophy must be defined by us [conservatives] in moral terms, packaged in non-religious language, and propagated throughout the country by our new coalition,” Weyrich wrote in the mid-1970s. “When political power is achieved, the moral majority will have the opportunity to re-create this great nation.” Weyrich believed that the political possibilities of such a coalition were unlimited. “The leadership, moral philosophy, and workable vehicle are at hand just waiting to be blended and activated,” he wrote. “If the moral majority acts, results could well exceed our wildest dreams.”


    But this hypothetical “moral majority” needed a catalyst—a standard around which to rally. For nearly two decades, Weyrich, by his own account, had been trying out different issues, hoping one might pique evangelical interest: pornography, prayer in schools, the proposed Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution, even abortion. “I was trying to get these people interested in those issues and I utterly failed,” Weyrich recalled at a conference in 1990.


    The Green v. Connally ruling provided a necessary first step: It captured the attention of evangelical leaders , especially as the IRS began sending questionnaires to church-related “segregation academies,” including Falwell’s own Lynchburg Christian School, inquiring about their racial policies. Falwell was furious. “In some states,” he famously complained, “It’s easier to open a massage parlor than a Christian school.”


    One such school, Bob Jones University—a fundamentalist college in Greenville, South Carolina—was especially obdurate. The IRS had sent its first letter to Bob Jones University in November 1970 to ascertain whether or not it discriminated on the basis of race. The school responded defiantly: It did not admit African Americans.


    Although Bob Jones Jr., the school’s founder, argued that racial segregation was mandated by the Bible, Falwell and Weyrich quickly sought to shift the grounds of the debate, framing their opposition in terms of religious freedom rather than in defense of racial segregation. For decades, evangelical leaders had boasted that because their educational institutions accepted no federal money (except for, of course, not having to pay taxes) the government could not tell them how to run their shops—whom to hire or not, whom to admit or reject. The Civil Rights Act, however, changed that calculus.
    I'd say Mick understands this better than most of us.

  17. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern NSW Australia
    Posts
    64,351

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    I've always been interested in American history and society, in fact that's the reason I originally joined this forum. The bilge is a wealth of knowledge on the subject.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  18. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,321

    Default Re: Trumps Christian support

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I've always been interested in American history and society, in fact that's the reason I originally joined this forum. The bilge is a wealth of knowledge on the subject.
    I learn a lot of history here too, and not just about the U.S.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •