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Thread: the right tool for the job

  1. #1
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    Default the right tool for the job

    The guy doing the flying during the actual hook-up is sitting in a rear facing seat and using a fly-by-wire system -

    https://www.facebook.com/darcy.bourg...4958132660933/

  2. #2
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    That's impressive flying!
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    I gave a little applause for that, precision stuff!

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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    We got a tour at Erickson. Were told the rear facing guy was an observer and winch operator. The pilot did the flying. I understand they have built a newer model since then.
    “What, Me Worry?". -. A. E. Newman

  5. #5
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    Maybe for whatever Erickson is using them for. For precision lifting etc. I can assure you the rear seat was used, worked for Sikorsky and had the opportunity to be in on the rebuild of 6 that were destroyed when a rare tornado destroyed ones operated by the Ct. national guard at the time. It was quite the machine, still holds the helicopter altitude record I believe at around 36,000 ft !!!

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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    I was curious about the altitude record, and that's been held by a Lama since 1972 at 40,814ft (12,440 meters.) There may be a time to altitude record the Crane holds? Lord knows she's a beast. I like'em, and am a Sikorsky guy, but the Cranes days are numbered with the Army selling D model Chinooks to the public.

    Sillers Brothers and HTS Cranes...



    Erickson...

    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  7. #7
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    The Ericksons and their pilots are a firefighting legend in Aus.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    not going to get into any arguments here - I was merely going by info in the "Sikorsky Archives" the Lama may indeed hold the record---

    http://www.sikorskyarchives.com/S-64...ory%20modX.php
    *With its nonlinear 14º twist, the S-64F had the highest figure of merit (.73) of any Sikorsky rotor up to that time. For comparison the CH-53 had a figure of merit of .69. The downside was that the S-64F was speed limited to 110 knots due to high stresses at speed caused by the high twist. This was acceptable to the Army because its mission was to carry external loads, not to achieve high speeds.With the simple light weight fuselage configuration, the cranes had very low empty weight to gross weight ratios, as low as .42 on the
    S-64F. Without payload this gave the aircraft outstanding performance. Numerous altitude and time-to-altitude records were broken by the Skycranes. In level flight the S-64F flew at 36,122 feet.
    Hover records were:
    Payload Maximum Altitude
    4,410 lbs
    31,480 ft
    11,025 lbs
    25,510 ft
    22,050 lbs
    17,212 ft
    33,075 lbs
    10,850 ft
    Time to Climb records were:
    Altitude Time to Climb
    9,843 ft 1 min 22.2 sec
    19,686 ft 2 min 58.9 sec
    29,529 ft 5 min 57.7 sec

  9. #9
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAKCT View Post
    not going to get into any arguments here...
    Nor I.

    I thought there might be some 'time to altitude' and "hover/payload" records held by the S-64, which are cool in their own right.

    I also can confirm (asked friend who worked at Erickson) that they do indeed still use a third rear facing pilot for some construction jobs, just like you mentioned.

    Do you know if the rear 'fly-by-wire' you mentioned is just an extension of the normal AFCS system, basically a third trim 'coolie cap' found on the normal cyclic sticks?
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  10. #10
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Nor I.

    I thought there might be some 'time to altitude' and "hover/payload" records held by the S-64, which are cool in their own right.

    I also can confirm (asked friend who worked at Erickson) that they do indeed still use a third rear facing pilot for some construction jobs, just like you mentioned.

    Do you know if the rear 'fly-by-wire' you mentioned is just an extension of the normal AFCS system, basically a third trim 'coolie cap' found on the normal cyclic sticks?
    from the archives - I remember it as "limited authority" mostly what we used to call "inner loop" don't recall it actually being able to "move" the sticks
    Mission SystemsThe aft-facing cockpit was included to ease picking up and releasing the cargo loads. Unlike the experimental S-60, it did not use a rotating pilot’s seat for the aft pilot’s station. The S-60 had shown that a separate aft pilot’s station was preferable. The S-64 aft pilot’s station is believed to be the first use of fly-by-wire controls on a helicopter. There were two modes. In one the pilot controlled the aircraft through the SAS servos, which gave fine control but limited authority. In the other mode, he put inputs into the autopilot (trim) servos. This allowed full amplitude control, and moved the front sticks so that the pilots knew what was going on. They could override the trim servos since they were connected to the sticks by springs and magnetic brakes.
    the area behind and above the cockpit called the attic was a fun place to work...


  11. #11
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    That is serious precision!

    I was once involved with building a bridge on a hiking trail near here. They had a helicopter long-line a sling of wet cedar timbers and decking into the site. The site was on a creek, the gap in the trees less than 50 feet wide, the trees around about 100 feet high. The slope was typical BC mountain side, steep. Similar terrain nearby is used by parasailers and hang gliders, to get the lift from the ridge wind. Serious updraft possibilities, in other words. It scared me to watch what was going on, from the safety of the trees well away from the drop point. Precision wasn't all that paramount, but the price to be paid if you didn't quite get it right was immense. We all figured that pilot was worth at least what they paid him.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    I can't believe he dropped the load with no positioning from ground personnel. Looks like the top and bottom mating surfaces may have ramps to help positioning, but still. I would imagine that was followed by a rapid rush to bolt it down before it toppled over, even with no wind gusts, makes me nervous knowing it's just sitting there not bolted down.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAKCT View Post
    from the archives - I remember it as "limited authority" mostly what we used to call "inner loop" don't recall it actually being able to "move" the sticks

    I'm familiar with the term 'inner loop' myself. Also Mag Brakes, Force Gradients, etc... always a bit of a mystery, even if I do know what they do.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  14. #14
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    I'm familiar with the term 'inner loop' myself. Also Mag Brakes, Force Gradients, etc... always a bit of a mystery, even if I do know what they do.
    rotary wing AFCS/SAS ?? if it was only a bit of a mystery your way ahead of most people, spent 35 years working as a flight electrician in Sikorsky's development center in Stratford and still think some of the older systems were half magic and half guesswork as to how they worked - remember one of the old time AFCS engineer's favorite expression was "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus"

  15. #15
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAKCT View Post
    rotary wing AFCS/SAS ?? if it was only a bit of a mystery your way ahead of most people, spent 35 years working as a flight electrician in Sikorsky's development center in Stratford and still think some of the older systems were half magic and half guesswork as to how they worked - remember one of the old time AFCS engineer's favorite expression was "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus"
    Right!

    I'm working on S61's now. Had a problem with a slight roll input from the AFCS when I left work. Nothing major, but noticeable to the pilots. Swapped directional gyros, but that didn't help. Hopefully it's fixed by the time I get back.

    Here's another fun day, swapping out the aux servo package...

    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  16. #16
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    your making me laugh and happy I retired - the -61 was the aircraft I had the least exposure to, another guy , (older than me at the time) worked them from day 1 - we had an agreement, he took care of them, shouldn't there be a "black box" where your oily rag is? I started working on commercial S-76 # 13 and all the Black Hawk derivatives, oversaw the electrical build of the prototype's s-92 and the first 25 or so production models, when all commercial was sent to Pennsylvania I moved back to the military side working the MH-60R medivac aircraft





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  17. #17
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAKCT View Post
    your making me laugh and happy I retired - the -61 was the aircraft I had the least exposure to, another guy , (older than me at the time) worked them from day 1 - we had an agreement, he took care of them, shouldn't there be a "black box" where your oily rag is? I started working on commercial S-76 # 13 and all the Black Hawk derivatives, oversaw the electrical build of the prototype's s-92 and the first 25 or so production models, when all commercial was sent to Pennsylvania I moved back to the military side working the MH-60R medivac aircraft





    med
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    We actually have a lot of Sikorsky in common, despite your lack of S61 time, and my never having touched an S76. I worked on Blackhawks in the Army (A models back around 1985-1990) and then Jayhawks in the Coast Guard (1990-2004.) I worked on an S92 for a couple months in Brunei. Great airframe, love the sculpture(ish) bare titanium main rotor head. Also close enough to a Blackhawk that I knew what everything did, even though they looked different.

    Not a black box, but rather a larger hydraulic aux servo assembly that combined Roll, Collective, Pitch, and Yaw in one assembly.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  18. #18
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    Default Re: the right tool for the job

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    We actually have a lot of Sikorsky in common, despite your lack of S61 time, and my never having touched an S76. I worked on Blackhawks in the Army (A models back around 1985-1990) and then Jayhawks in the Coast Guard (1990-2004.) I worked on an S92 for a couple months in Brunei. Great airframe, love the sculpture(ish) bare titanium main rotor head. Also close enough to a Blackhawk that I knew what everything did, even though they looked different.

    Not a black box, but rather a larger hydraulic aux servo assembly that combined Roll, Collective, Pitch, and Yaw in one assembly.
    Hope your Brunei S-92 time wasn't when that one had to put down with MGB oil pressure issues (the filter and studs issue) - the s-92 always needed the 5th blade in my opinion, to me it felt like it was lurching through the sky- now the -53e machine was a smooth flying monster...Lot of new ideas were built into the -92, some, we on the floor weren't sure would pan out in real life - surprisingly, it's turned out to be a pretty good machine

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