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Thread: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

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    Default Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients (ARTICLE LINK)

    Excerpt
    Type 2 diabetes isn't necessarily for life, with a new clinical trial providing some of the clearest evidence yet that the condition can be reversed, even in patients who have carried the disease for several years.

    A clinical trial involving almost 300 people in the UK found an intensive weight management program put type 2 diabetes into remission for 86 percent of patients who lost 15 kilograms (33 lbs) or more.

    "These findings are very exciting," says diabetes researcher Roy Taylor from Newcastle University.

    "They could revolutionise the way type 2 diabetes is treated."

    Taylor and fellow researchers studied 298 adults aged 20-65 years who had been diagnosed with type 2 diabetes within the previous six years to take part in the Diabetes Remission Clinical Trial (DiRECT).

    Participants were randomly assigned to either an intensive weight management program or to regular diabetic care administered by their GP, acting as a control group.

    For the 149 individuals placed in the weight management program, participants had to restrict themselves to a low calorie formula diet consisting of things like health shakes and soups, limiting them to consuming 825-853 calories per day for a period of three to five months.
    Related article:
    Fasting Cures Diabetes (ARTICLE LINK)


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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Very interesting article!

    I don't have Type 2 diabetes, but I am overweight, by maybe 30 lbs or so... obviously, calorie restriction would be a good thing, for me....

    ...it's just so damned hard to do!
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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Very interesting article!

    I don't have Type 2 diabetes, but I am overweight, by maybe 30 lbs or so... obviously, calorie restriction would be a good thing, for me....

    ...it's just so damned hard to do!
    Fasting is actually easier than restricting calories on a daily basis. Try eating one meal every 24 hours. This is a fairly mild form of fasting, and not that hard, and you don't have to tell anyone you're doing it. There's an interesting series of articles on fasting starting HERE.


    The human body has well developed mechanisms for dealing with periods of low food availability. In essence, what we are describing here is the process of switching from burning glucose (short term) to burning fat (long term). Fat is simply the body’s stored food energy. In times of low food availability, stored food is naturally released to fill the void. So no, the body does not ‘burn muscle’ in an effort to feed itself until all the fat stores are used.

    Hormonal Adaptation

    Insulin

    Fasting is the most efficient and consistent strategy to decrease insulin levels. This was first noted decades ago, and widely accepted as true. It is quite simple and obvious. All foods raise insulin, so the most effective method of reducing insulin is to avoid all foods. Blood glucose levels remain normal, as the body begins to switch over to burning fat for energy. This effect is seen with fasting periods as short as 24-36 hours. Longer duration fasts reduce insulin even more dramatically. More recently, alternate daily fasting has been studied as an acceptable technique of reducing insulin.

    Regular fasting, in addition to lowering insulin levels, has also been shown to improve insulin sensitivity significantly. This is the missing link in the weight loss puzzle. Most diets reduce highly insulin-secreting foods, but do not address the insulin resistance issue. Weight is initially lost, but insulin resistance keeps insulin levels and Body Set Weight high. Fasting is an efficient method of reducing insulin resistance.
    I've been doing the one meal a day for about a month, and am slowly (as always) losing weight. I can't say how much, exactly, because at 199 kg (438 lbs) it is hard to find a scale I can use.

    I have a defective brain: my hypothalamus and pituitary don't produce enough juice, so, among other effects, my metabolism wants to turn every calorie I eat into fat. If I can use fasting to decrease my body-set-weight by any amount, I'll be ahead of the game so far.

    Good Luck!

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Quote Originally Posted by sharpiefan View Post
    Fasting is actually easier than restricting calories on a daily basis. Try eating one meal every 24 hours. This is a fairly mild form of fasting, and not that hard, and you don't have to tell anyone you're doing it. There's an interesting series of articles on fasting starting HERE.




    I've been doing the one meal a day for about a month, and am slowly (as always) losing weight. I can't say how much, exactly, because at 199 kg (438 lbs) it is hard to find a scale I can use.

    I have a defective brain: my hypothalamus and pituitary don't produce enough juice, so, among other effects, my metabolism wants to turn every calorie I eat into fat. If I can use fasting to decrease my body-set-weight by any amount, I'll be ahead of the game so far.

    Good Luck!
    If I may...
    Combine your efforts with aerobic exercise. This is “mild” effort. Any physical motion you can do and still talk easily.

    After about 30 minutes of aerobic work, your body has burned all the ready fuel, and will start burning fat. The more often you get into that zone, the more your body gets used to burning fat as a fuel.

    It works. Really.

    Peace,
    Robert

    P.S. It is ALWAYS easier to burn off excess than to cut, cut, cut.

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    I walk or ride my (old, single-speed) bike several miles a day (barring thunderstorms). I'm "the fat guy on the bicycle" to my neighborhood. A couple of people have told me they started walking or riding again, because seeing me do it made them feel like slackers.

    I'm a b-a-a-a-d influence.

    Hope the voyage is a long one.
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    you come into harbors seen for the first time...

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    The problem, of course, is compliance. People won't do it. Or if they do it, they won't do it according to the specs. A vanishingly small proportion of folks will make this lifestyle change in the manner which the research has proved will be effective.

    My son-in-law and I chatted about exercise recently - he's a fairly newly minted family physician. I shared a book with him co-written by an ER physician/medical researcher and a strength training coach. The data is very clear about the positive benefits - metabolic benefits - not only of "exercise," but of a well-considered strength training regime as the cornerstone of one's exercise activity.

    Not disparaging aerobic work, but the research really is in about the positive effects on measurable, physiological, visible-on-lab-test-results as well as in the weight room benefits. On shockingly marked improvements to quality of life, especially in senior citizens.

    My son-in-law shrugged. He's fit, he lifts and does aerobic stuff too - doesn't need convincing. But his patients won't do it. His patients won't take the dog for a walk, let alone do 30+ minutes of mild aerobic exercise to shift into a fat-burning metabolic state. His patients sure as hell won't learn to squat properly, or learn to deadlift safely, or do an overhead press.

    It isn't that the research hasn't been proven - it's that the program is unpalatable. What the son-in-law said is that the book is essentially useless to him in his practice, for all that it is "correct." Because his patients won't even take their meds according to their prescription specs; there's no reason for him to believe that they'd comply with a prescription of exercise - however magnificent and life-changing the results.
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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Quote Originally Posted by sharpiefan View Post
    I walk or ride my (old, single-speed) bike several miles a day (barring thunderstorms). I'm "the fat guy on the bicycle" to my neighborhood. A couple of people have told me they started walking or riding again, because seeing me do it made them feel like slackers.

    I'm a b-a-a-a-d influence.
    Since my accident, I do much work training people back to health. I work with a lot of overweight and physically disabled or injured people. I do have some amount of professional training, but an enormous amount of amateur study on the subjects of kinesiology and nutrition. Human endurance is a pet subject of mine.

    99% of the training work is cheerleading.
    My favorite line is, “You look better than you feel!”
    The other 1% is forcing them to keep making baby steps. Relentless forward motion.

    You have my undying support and respect. Here’s to “the moderate sized guy on the bike”, eh?

    And remember we are working in geological time scales, here. Nothing real will change in a week. Two months of regular work and conscientious eating may earn you some new pants, though. Hehe.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    I've lost 32 pounds in the last 4 months. I don't consider myself to be dieting. Rather, I've engaged in a complete change in style. Unfortunately, it took a total knee replacement, a diagnosis of "pre-diabetes" and daily pain from being an obese slob to come to my senses, but I'm doing what I can to reverse years of sloth. I've no doubt that you are what you eat and that being conscious of what you put in your body is the first step to daily health and well being.

    Highly recommended, but as always, the first steps are the hardest.
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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Very interesting article!

    I don't have Type 2 diabetes, but I am overweight, by maybe 30 lbs or so... obviously, calorie restriction would be a good thing, for me....

    ...it's just so damned hard to do!

    DITTO, However I am trying to get down from 241lbs to close to 200lbs.

    PSI think I shall avoid reaching even the upper limit of my BMI weight of 179.2lbs:


    • Normal BMI weight range for the height: 132.6lbs - 179.2 lbs . . . . So I am in the OBESE Class I



    http://www.calculator.net/bmi-calcul...t=0&x=112&y=16


    This is a graph of BMI categories based on the World Health Organization data. The dashed lines represent subdivisions within a major categorization.
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Yup. Rump-roast, anyone?

    I appreciate the posts here, so far - they're all spot-on. Achieving a lifestyle change is damned tough; we're asking that you rid yourself of some 'comfortable' habits. Now, if we had a pill for that, it'd be do-able!

    Tom, your SIL is correct; it's like pulling teeth. If I can convince pts to do even 20 minutes of aerobic exercise/day, at least 5 days/week, along with correct diet - they all lose weight. All of 'em. Unfortunately..... it seldom happens. Getting folks to lift even mild weights has been a tough sell, as well.

    I talk about a three-legged stool - lifestyle change, nearly daily aerobic exercise - and if still unsuccessful, short-term use of an appetite suppressant.

    If any of you come up with a better 'sell', I'm listening.
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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Well done, you guys.

    I remember reading that folks look at bodybuilders and say "Oh, that represents years and years of effort." The writer observed that for all of us, our bodies display exactly what we've done for the past couple of decades. And will respond as we do something else instead.

    What's heartening is that for all that Rob's correct, and that "geological time" is not too bad a metaphor for a full-on transformation, the Pareto Principle also applies. Getting the first 80% of the benefit will come from the first 20% of that investment in geological time. That's as much as most of us need to have our whole experience of ourselves in our bodies turn upside down.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Hey Rum, (or anyone else who wants to lose some weight) have you looked into a ketogenic diet? Basically its an ultra low carb, high fat, high fiber, moderate protein diet. I got on that a little less than a year ago. I was 240lbs when I started, and was 197 before Thanksgiving. The holiday boned me over though, and I am 204 today. A lot of that is water, but some of its fat. Good news is that when on Keto, weight comes off quick. Done to the extreme, one can lose ~1 lb per day. I wasn't as extreme, opting for the slow steady approach, and lost around 2 lbs a week. I actually hit 200 lbs in June, and then maintained throughout the summer. I am back to being serious about my diet again, and am seeing results (I was 208 right after the holiday, do down 4 lbs in a week).

    The key to it is to watch the carbs, especially the sugars. People will hear about your diet and freak out because you aren't eating fruit, but they are loaded with sugar, which triggers insulin production, which leads to fat production and storage. Without the insulin spike from the sugars, the body takes the fat you've eaten, converts it into glucose, and burns it for energy. The body gets used to converting fat to glucose, and starts doing that to not only the fat you eat, but also the stored fat in your body.

    Now, I am far from a nutritionist, but I talked to my Doctor about my lifestyle change last March. He was impressed by my loss of 17 lbs from the previous year. My numbers looked good, and my BP was even down a bit. I told him what I was doing and he agreed that it was the right path to take.

    Of course everyone's body is different, so you should probably consult a professional before embarking on any major dietary change. But I would definitely consider at least looking into Keto for weight loss.

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    The one comment I've heard from folks on the ketogenic diet is - it 'get's old', and they relapse to 'happy food'. But I've seen some pretty impressive results with it, as well.
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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    To be clear, by geological time, I mean months, not days or weeks.

    That weighing yourself every week thing is odious.

    And, it’s important to remember that muscle weighs more than fat, so as you get more fit, you may not lose weight.

    For example, during Ironman training, I’ll pack on ten or TWENTY pounds of muscle, yet hardly change shape. A slight overall growth in muscle density and mass will increase your weight.

    I think water is the finest exercise medium, by the way.

    And the key to motivating movement? Different perspective on exercise. That’s one reason I like the movnat deal. Movement is life, and it all counts. Just go move.
    The most motivating factor, though, in my experience, is peer pressure. Find or start a group of people who regularly do something. Peer pressure is powerful.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    I’ve mentioned the Lakers bone broth and butter diet here before.

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    Dr. Maffetone Acolyte

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    You're right about the peer-pressure; I encounter it, in a negative way, every day, esp with those folks who need to change their eating habits, or 'rid themselves' of one, such as tobacco. Their 'peers', in those instances, are a negative influence - and they are generally friends.
    Last edited by George Jung; 12-06-2017 at 01:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Not being in full control of what happens in the kitchen in my house, I found keto was impossible to implement to spec. Family mealtimes couldn't exist in our household without carbs, and marital harmony couldn't exist with two people attempting to cook 2 different meals in the same space at the same time. A man has to know his limitations.

    As a result, I can vouch that a semi-keto works well, though it sucks. And that doing semi-keto, one never really gets over the brain-fog, as your neurons go on strike waiting for that easy glucose source that they know is just 'round the corner. Stupid neurons.

    As a "lifestyle choice," keto wouldn't be something I could sustain. But as a viable option for a time-limited "cut," sure. Over the years I've got to using December as a "strength training focused" month in my annual exercise thinking ... to try and do something useful with all the extra calories I'm inevitably going to eat. And to take January as a scheduled keto-like "cut" time, to try and peel off a bit of the Christmas schlub. Some folks might get fancy and call this "periodization." I call it a hard won self-defence discipline.
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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Oooh, yer cookin' with ketos, Tom!
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    If I may...
    Combine your efforts with aerobic exercise. This is “mild” effort. Any physical motion you can do and still talk easily.

    After about 30 minutes of aerobic work, your body has burned all the ready fuel, and will start burning fat. The more often you get into that zone, the more your body gets used to burning fat as a fuel.

    It works. Really.

    Peace,
    Robert

    P.S. It is ALWAYS easier to burn off excess than to cut, cut, cut.
    I am of this school.

    The higher our heart rate gets, the more intense the exercise is, the shorter we feel we can last, and the more sugar we burn. Also, as our heart rate rises, the percentage of fat we burn drops. The more deconditioned we are, the more quickly fat burn drops. When we’re primarily burning sugar as a fuel source, we start feeling uncomfortable, like we DON’T want to keep going. On the other end, when we burn a higher percentage of fat, we feel comfortable, like we could last for a long time.

    most individuals burn 70% or more fat while walking (although they don’t burn many overall calories, because walking is not intense) ... If you’re one of those people who dread running because it feels so hard, my guess is that it feels hard because you are burning well over 50% of your calories from sugar as you run

    But I also believe for most purposes that a calorie is a calorie. Diabetes is an exception.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    My Doc has told me to reduce weight by the 'cut it in half' i.e. cut all intake by half.
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    My Doc has told me to reduce weight by the 'cut it in half' i.e. cut all intake by half.
    It's simple, which helps with compliance. But you'll suffer more.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Fasting for a diabetic seems contrary to good medicine. A low carb, low sugar, moderate calorie, high protein diet with moderate exercise would be more sensible.
    "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Alice

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    I spent the summer rowing and chasing the wildlife around on rough terrain. This didn't leave much time for eating, and combining that with my lack of interest in cooking I went from 192 to 175, down 17 in 3 months. Now that I'm back and exercising less and subject to my wife's cooking I'm back up maybe 10 to 185.

    The answer for me seems to be to just do my own cooking, or quit eating supper. Sure fire would be to move back to the critters and stay there, but I would have to make a point of eating more or I would waste away.

    One of my neighbors has lost about 40 pounds on the keto diet over the last 6 months. She's done that without the exercise, she's pretty arthritic.

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    I spent the summer rowing and chasing the wildlife around on rough terrain. This didn't leave much time for eating, and combining that with my lack of interest in cooking I went from 192 to 175, down 17 in 3 months. Now that I'm back and exercising less and subject to my wife's cooking I'm back up maybe 10 to 185.

    The answer for me seems to be to just do my own cooking, or quit eating supper. Sure fire would be to move back to the critters and stay there, but I would have to make a point of eating more or I would waste away.

    One of my neighbors has lost about 40 pounds on the keto diet over the last 6 months. She's done that without the exercise, she's pretty arthritic.
    Just one question - what were the wimmin doing in rough terrain?
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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    For most people - a mostly vegetarian styled diet without enriched flour/added sugars and walking 30 minutes after each meal will almost every time bring every single diabetic into the normal range. If you can change your ph levels off the acidic - you can reduce your chances of diabetes, arthritis, cancer, heart failure and stroke.
    Be wary of your critics, at peace with your decisions, and work hard to be a better man.

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Along with their meds?

    Or are you going for 'the cure'?
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Gib, your comment on the Keto diet got me interested. This looks like a pretty comprehensive web site - LOTS of information, recipes (which look remarkably good), shopping lists, and a free two week starter program and not so much as providing an email address to use it.

    https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/get-started/prepare
    "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Alice

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Sugar begets sugar. No carb/low carb is the way to go. No added sugar and nothing starchier than an artichoke.

    I am the "lean" guy in every crowd at 6'0" and 170 lbs but the chart above puts me at borderline overweight. The guys you see on the WW2 footage are all skinnier than me.

    A five day bone broth fast is a great way to get into ketosis. Don't sugar fast (fruit juice) or you are missing the point.

    PS-You "get" to eat lots of fat. Healthy fat...ghee, avocado oil, coconut oil, nuts, etc. Makes you much less hungry than eating carbs.

    Need to get away from the "instinct" that fat causes heart disease.

    This guy is pretty good.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1DuxIBQNnI
    Last edited by bluedog225; 12-06-2017 at 02:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Yeah - the 'sugar guys' paid some Harvard researchers quite a bit, many moons ago, to promote the idea that fat was bad, sugar was good. Damned stuff gets added to everything, now. And that's a powerful organization - think NRA.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Yeah - the 'sugar guys' paid some Harvard researchers quite a bit, many moons ago, to promote the idea that fat was bad, sugar was good. Damned stuff gets added to everything, now. And that's a powerful organization - think NRA.


    How did we get fooled into thinking that yogurt was healthy for breakfast when it has twice the sugar of ice cream?

    Who would have been allowed to eat ice cream for breakfast when they were a kid?

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    I'll eat home-made yogurt for breakfast ... because I know how much sugar I'm getting that way.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Well.... me. 'Allowed' might be stretching it..
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    The problem, of course, is compliance. People won't do it. Or if they do it, they won't do it according to the specs. A vanishingly small proportion of folks will make this lifestyle change in the manner which the research has proved will be effective.

    My son-in-law and I chatted about exercise recently - he's a fairly newly minted family physician. I shared a book with him co-written by an ER physician/medical researcher and a strength training coach. The data is very clear about the positive benefits - metabolic benefits - not only of "exercise," but of a well-considered strength training regime as the cornerstone of one's exercise activity.

    Not disparaging aerobic work, but the research really is in about the positive effects on measurable, physiological, visible-on-lab-test-results as well as in the weight room benefits. On shockingly marked improvements to quality of life, especially in senior citizens.

    My son-in-law shrugged. He's fit, he lifts and does aerobic stuff too - doesn't need convincing. But his patients won't do it. His patients won't take the dog for a walk, let alone do 30+ minutes of mild aerobic exercise to shift into a fat-burning metabolic state. His patients sure as hell won't learn to squat properly, or learn to deadlift safely, or do an overhead press.

    It isn't that the research hasn't been proven - it's that the program is unpalatable. What the son-in-law said is that the book is essentially useless to him in his practice, for all that it is "correct." Because his patients won't even take their meds according to their prescription specs; there's no reason for him to believe that they'd comply with a prescription of exercise - however magnificent and life-changing the results.
    I often wonder whether advertising copy and diet book titles prove the same point. Almost all of the dodgy ones claim that you can lose weight "without exercise" or "lose weight without trying". It seems apparent from the way weight loss is being sold that the real fear is (shock horror) actually having to get off the couch or having to look at a bagel and say "no".

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
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    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    You have my undying support and respect. Here’s to “the moderate sized guy on the bike”, eh?
    One of the nice things about cycling groups is the enormous respect and support they seem to give to people who are on the bike and seriously trying hard to lose weight.

    Several times I've heard such guys say that they ignored their weight until the doctor said "start saying goodbye to your wife and kids, because you will die early if you don't fix this". They say that the death knock was enough to shift their thinking and put them onto the bike. I think it's worked for all of them.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    3,972

    Default Re: Extreme Diet Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Up to 86% of Patients

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Just one question - what were the wimmin doing in rough terrain?
    They came and visited for a week, and they brought lots of treats. I felt guilty eating so many cookies, potato chips and such.

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