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Thread: We should be ashamed.

  1. #106
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by cglynn View Post
    With respect to idea of "Laws" in this thread....In ethics class (something that I think every person should have to take before being able to be registered to vote...but that's a whole 'nother story) we discussed at length those things that were morally right and morally wrong, and how "laws" should be based on those things that are morally correct.

    As an extreme example, there is this place called Germany. In the late 30's and early 40's, the German leader decided to make a law that all Jewish people should be exterminated. And so they were...because it was the law, and those who did the exterminating were "just following the law." Is our current enforcement of immigration laws really that much different? In the case from the OP, I personally see very little difference between the actions of SS soldiers during the holocaust, and the OHP/ICE. The only difference is the victim in this case wasn't killed, but to her family, I am sure the result is similar enough.

    How one can blindly follow a law without thinking of its ramifications on humanity is beyond me. So the solution is quite simple. Eventually, in Germany it was again legal to be Jewish. They changed their laws. Why do we have such difficulties doing the same???
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    And apply the good laws with common sense and compassion. Yous guys joined in the fight against a country who treated people the way you are supporting in this case.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  2. #107
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Do you think she would have been deported if the car she was driving was new, owned her own nice house and ran a business that knowingly employed illegals. Not f'ing likely.

    the obviousness of the governmental lack of compassion is directly tied to the profitability of business and society due to illegal, unethical or uncompassionate activities.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 12-06-2017 at 12:02 PM.
    Be wary of your critics, at peace with your decisions, and work hard to be a better man.

  3. #108
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    the obviousness of the governmental lack of compassion is directly tied to the profitability of business and society that due to illegal, unethical or uncompassionate activities.
    As has been asked before, "How do we as a country benefit from deporting people like her?"

    Her kids are suddenly motherless and become wards of the state, i.e. "Those GODDAMNED money sucking welfare kids."
    "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Alice

  4. #109
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    As has been asked before, "How do we as a country benefit from deporting people like her?"

    Her kids are suddenly motherless and become wards of the state, i.e. "Those GODDAMNED money sucking welfare kids."
    As with everything somebody profits from this.
    Be wary of your critics, at peace with your decisions, and work hard to be a better man.

  5. #110
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    As has been asked before, "How do we as a country benefit from deporting people like her?"

    Her kids are suddenly motherless and become wards of the state, i.e. "Those GODDAMNED money sucking welfare kids."
    At the risk of stereotyping the Hispanic immigrants in our country, this is not likely to happen. Their sense of family responsibility often runs quite deep (more so than ours) and that extends to extended families.

  6. #111
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    On the other side of the argument is that illegal immigration has suppressed wages and added undue burden on system. We are witnessing this with the trumpian reactionary voter and masses of corporate sponsored wider immigration who use this argument to not train native born populations.

    we do live in a very cold blooded nation. Millions are homeless and living in the streets. We see them here in my area by the 10s of thousands.
    Paul and Keith please take note. There are still plenty of populists on the left side of the spectrum who are not comfortable with liberal immigration laws also.

  7. #112
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    On the other side of the argument is that illegal immigration has suppressed wages and added undue burden on system. We are witnessing this with the trumpian reactionary voter and masses of corporate sponsored wider immigration who use this argument to not train native born populations.

    we do live in a very cold blooded nation. Millions are homeless and living in the streets. We see them here in my area by the 10s of thousands.
    You may be thinking of pure corporate greed. I could be mistaken, but I"m fairly certain that I am not.
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  8. #113
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    As has been asked before, "How do we as a country benefit from deporting people like her?"

    Her kids are suddenly motherless and become wards of the state, i.e. "Those GODDAMNED money sucking welfare kids."

    they're with their father. but keep on ranting, it's fun.

  9. #114
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    "Sweet Mother of God you reds are disgusting."
    "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Alice

  10. #115
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    At the risk of stereotyping the Hispanic immigrants in our country, this is not likely to happen. Their sense of family responsibility often runs quite deep (more so than ours) and that extends to extended families.
    Exactly the sort of people we would WANT to be American citizens, aren't they.....
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  11. #116
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    "Sweet Mother of God you reds are disgusting."
    George said it best

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    wipe the soot from your besmirched soul.
    This post is temporary and my disappear at the discretion of the managment

  12. #117
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Paul and Keith please take note. There are still plenty of populists on the left side of the spectrum who are not comfortable with liberal immigration laws also.
    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    You may be thinking of pure corporate greed. I could be mistaken, but I"m fairly certain that I am not.
    i am quite certain that corporate greed is responsible for many of the bad effects of globalism and the systematic changes to our society. It is not populism to state the facts as they are when looking at governmental policy regarding employment, immigration and how we push more of the most vulnerable in our society into homelessness.
    Be wary of your critics, at peace with your decisions, and work hard to be a better man.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Exactly the sort of people we would WANT to be American citizens, aren't they.....
    Yea, beyond a doubt. I have a great affinity for the Hispanic immigrants I deal with. Hard workers, great family values, and a true entrepreneurial spirit. I doubt there has rarely been a ethnic group of immigrants at any point in time more suited to our country.

  14. #119
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    On the other side of the argument is that illegal immigration has suppressed wages and added undue burden on system. We are witnessing this with the trumpian reactionary voter and masses of corporate sponsored wider immigration who use this argument to not train native born populations.

    we do live in a very cold blooded nation. Millions are homeless and living in the streets. We see them here in my area by the 10s of thousands.
    It is likely that illegal immigration has suppressed wages somewhat on the low, unskilled end of the wage scale. This could easily be remedied with well thought out guest worker program. OTOH, there is more than a bit of truth to the oft heard cliché hat these immigrants take jobs Americans will no longer do. At any rate, on this low-end wage scale, these immigrants are not typically employed by large corporations. They are employed by land-scapers, stone-working companies, as house old maids, etc.

    As to the so-called "masses of corporate sponsored wider immigration who use this argument to not train native born populations", I am not for sure what you are talking about. There is the H1-B program, which I suppose mostly fits your comment. It is proposed to be reduced drastically by Trump. Which is really stupid. Yes, it is corporations who fight for this program politically, especially high tech. And I have experience with it. Believe me, any company would much rather hire an American engineer, programmer, doctor, etc than fight the H1-B hassles. It is always a last resort, but one that has to be done. And this does not drive down wages or keep Americans from being trained in these fields. Guess what, American kids don't want to study engineering in college.


    It is not populism to state the facts as they are when looking at governmental policy regarding employment, immigration and how we push more of the most vulnerable in our society into homelessness.
    Our immigration policy is pushing the most vulnerable into homelessness??? Really?

  15. #120
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Paul and Keith please take note. There are still plenty of populists on the left side of the spectrum who are not comfortable with liberal immigration laws also.
    I will point out that Ted wasn't speaking about liberal immigration laws, but about those here illegally - who do indeed depress wages to some degree, precisely because they're here illegally, lack legal protections and are vulnerable to exploitation.

    Two issues here: What should we do about those here illegally, and what should immigration laws be. They're connected, but not the same thing. The nativist right likes to mush it all together in a general antipathy toward those Not Like Us.

    I agree with Peb 100%, although after living in Latin America for a while, I tend to think of Latin Americans more as individual people, with all the human faults and virtues. There are some cultural differences, obviously, but they're less than individual differences, and I think the major advantage of immigrants is the selection filter of immigration itself. Those who are lazy, stupid, resigned to how things are, and not willing to take risks and make things better for themselves - those folks are still in Mexico - or in Cornwall, Ireland, Germany, Russia, Italy, China, Vietnam, India or wherever. On average, we get the more ambitious and industrious. Immigrants have always made the US better, whether in 1850 or 1900 or 1950 or 2000.
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  16. #121
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson
    I agree with Peb 100%, although after living in Latin America for a while, I tend to think of Latin Americans more as individual people, with all the human faults and virtues. There are some cultural differences, obviously, but they're less than individual differences, and I think the major advantage of immigrants is the selection filter of immigration itself. Those who are lazy, stupid, resigned to how things are, and not willing to take risks and make things better for themselves - those folks are still in Mexico - or in Cornwall, Ireland, Germany, Russia, Italy, China, Vietnam, India or wherever. On average, we get the more ambitious and industrious. Immigrants have always made the US better, whether in 1850 or 1900 or 1950 or 2000.
    Keith, don't get me wrong. I know lots of people from Mexico, both living here and still in Mexico, at all levels of the economic spectrum. I understand they are all individuals with various faults and virtues. Like any other group of people I know, there are some I like a lot and a few I don't like that much.
    But there are common traits. And we may hate to hear this, but when it comes to work ethic, as a whole they are far better than American young workers today. Go read Joe's thread on trying to hire dog groomers and his frustrations. He is not unique. That doesn't happen near as often when hiring a Hispanic.

    Finally, your comment about "advantage of immigrants is the selection filter of immigration itself. Those who are lazy, stupid, resigned to how things are, and not willing to take risks and make things better for themselves" is spot on. America is exceptional, we are exceptional because the country was built with immigrants, and this self-selection has always been in play.

    Another great irony of the Trumpists: their number one scapegoat issue is immigration and their slogan is "Make America Great Again". I mentioned it last year during the election, someone could not make this stuff up. They fight the very thing that made America great in the first place in their effort to make America great. You cannot make this stuff up. It is utterly absurd.

  17. #122
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/...r-kids-n824536

    For years I heard rabid anti-immgrans claim that we were not breaking up families, despite that I have personally know 3 families broken up due to deportations. Lately, they don't even bother denying it.

    What the hell is wrong with us?

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    this sort of Callous Cruelty has permeated our culture since... Roe V Wade.

  18. #123
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I will point out that Ted wasn't speaking about liberal immigration laws, but about those here illegally - who do indeed depress wages to some degree, precisely because they're here illegally, lack legal protections and are vulnerable to exploitation.

    Two issues here: What should we do about those here illegally, and what should immigration laws be. They're connected, but not the same thing. The nativist right likes to mush it all together in a general antipathy toward those Not Like Us.

    I agree with Peb 100%, although after living in Latin America for a while, I tend to think of Latin Americans more as individual people, with all the human faults and virtues. There are some cultural differences, obviously, but they're less than individual differences, and I think the major advantage of immigrants is the selection filter of immigration itself. Those who are lazy, stupid, resigned to how things are, and not willing to take risks and make things better for themselves - those folks are still in Mexico - or in Cornwall, Ireland, Germany, Russia, Italy, China, Vietnam, India or wherever. On average, we get the more ambitious and industrious. Immigrants have always made the US better, whether in 1850 or 1900 or 1950 or 2000.

    well, the illegal and legal immigration do sort of mush together. would the waiting line to get into the us be as long if there weren't illegals taking those spots? i don't have any problem with the hard working family values type latinos that want to be here. being tied to the construction industry i know lots of them. it would be nice if we could hard line defend the illegal immigrants and send them back, while stream lining the process to get them here legally. i know, sounds ridiculous to say "send them home, then bring them right back" but the "amnesty now, border fix later" approach has been tried and failed. make the statement that you WILL enter legally, or don't enter at all. just make the entrance part significantly easier.

  19. #124
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Keith, don't get me wrong. I know lots of people from Mexico, both living here and still in Mexico, at all levels of the economic spectrum. I understand they are all individuals with various faults and virtues. Like any other group of people I know, there are some I like a lot and a few I don't like that much.
    But there are common traits. And we may hate to hear this, but when it comes to work ethic, as a whole they are far better than American young workers today. Go read Joe's thread on trying to hire dog groomers and his frustrations. He is not unique. That doesn't happen near as often when hiring a Hispanic.

    Finally, your comment about "advantage of immigrants is the selection filter of immigration itself. Those who are lazy, stupid, resigned to how things are, and not willing to take risks and make things better for themselves" is spot on. America is exceptional, we are exceptional because the country was built with immigrants, and this self-selection has always been in play.

    Another great irony of the Trumpists: their number one scapegoat issue is immigration and their slogan is "Make America Great Again". I mentioned it last year during the election, someone could not make this stuff up. They fight the very thing that made America great in the first place in their effort to make America great. You cannot make this stuff up. It is utterly absurd.

    imagine that... offering below a living wage has people sitting on the side lines rather than working... it's all about the economics.

  20. #125
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Not so sure on the H1-B issue; I've no first-hand experience, but have heard news reports (NPR) that, in fact, that program has been gamed, such that citizens have not only been replaced with foreigners/visa's, but even required to train their 'replacements', before they were fired.

    Trump applied for a big batch of these, claiming there was 'no one in the USA' who could do the work needed at Mara Lago. The guy is shameless.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Not a single person has mentioned the issue of civic assimilation yet. Not a single person has raised the issue of whether the US should vet potential immigrants to determine what, if anything, such persons have to contribute to our society, culture and economy.

    It's just come one, come all, even illegally if you like. If you oppose this, why, you're a bigot or a racist. Sorry, no.

    Immigration to the United States is not a right, nor a human right.

  22. #127
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Not so sure on the H1-B issue; I've no first-hand experience, but have heard news reports (NPR) that, in fact, that program has been gamed, such that citizens have not only been replaced with foreigners/visa's, but even required to train their 'replacements', before they were fired.

    Trump applied for a big batch of these, claiming there was 'no one in the USA' who could do the work needed at Mara Lago. The guy is shameless.
    And brought in crews from all over - not hiring locals. Probably many of the crews were illegals. Then I'm sure there were some who never got paid.
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  23. #128
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Not a single person has mentioned the issue of civic assimilation yet..
    No need to. The victim of this abduction was married to a US citizen, the mother of US citizens, was holding down a job contributing to the US economy and paying US taxes. Civic assimilation is an established fact.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  24. #129
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    No need to. The victim of this abduction was married to a US citizen, the mother of US citizens, was holding down a job contributing to the US economy and paying US taxes. Civic assimilation is an established fact.

    incorrect. she was married to an immigrant that had a work visa.

  25. #130
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Not a single person has mentioned the issue of civic assimilation yet.
    I will. It's hogwash, a complete red herring, a bogus issue raised only by those who don't like folks coming here from elsewhere. Assimilation happens just fine, thank you, and it actually goes faster than it did in previous generations because of better communication and more interconnectedness. Language learning is like it has always been - the first generation speaks English pretty badly with a strong accent, the second generation speaks English fluently, possibly with a slight accent, and their parents' language in a rudimentary way, and the third generation speaks English with an American regional accent and learns their parents' language in school, if at all. Mexicans assimilate just as well as Ukrainians or Italians or Germans or Irish did. And the anti-immigrant sentiment is also the same as it always was, only the country of origin has been changed. This cartoon's from 1903.



    And this one from 1871. Substitute Muslims for Catholics, and you could publish it on Breitbart today.



    Peb, I don't disagree about the cultural differences, but I put a bit less weight on them than you do.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 12-06-2017 at 01:55 PM.
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  26. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    incorrect. she was married to an immigrant that had a work visa.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  27. #132
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post


    does that mean something to you? b/c it means nothing to me.


    back to your regularly scheduled fake news programming.

  28. #133
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Not a single person has mentioned the issue of civic assimilation yet. Not a single person has raised the issue of whether the US should vet potential immigrants to determine what, if anything, such persons have to contribute to our society, culture and economy.

    It's just come one, come all, even illegally if you like. If you oppose this, why, you're a bigot or a racist. Sorry, no.

    Immigration to the United States is not a right, nor a human right.
    Not true. I have talked about things precisely related to so-called "civic assimilation". I would point you to posts 118 and 121.

    And of course immigrants should be vetted, no one is saying we should have no border controls. But your side doesn't stop at vetting. Your side wants to reduce overall legal immigration by a stated goal of 1/2, with out regards to any vetting. Your vetting issue is a red-herring.

    Actually, I believe (as a good Catholic) there is a right to immigrate. Likewise, a country has a right to control its borders. So there is balancing act that must be done. But make no mistake, it all starts with a right to immigrate. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.
    Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.
    I don't include this part because I expect the Church to change your mind, just to show that your statement that it is not a human right is not accepted by a very large number of people (and to give everyone a taste of what forms my opinions).

  29. #134
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Peb, I don't disagree about the cultural differences, but I put a bit less weight on them than you do.
    Of course you don't put as much weight on it, you don't believe in American Exceptionalism, I do. So I will weight those things responsible for maintaining it quite high.

    All said in somewhat jest (although I do actually believe it), because I thought for sure my side reference American Exceptionalism would have provoked a response from you before. Trolling is only fun if the other side responds.
    Last edited by peb; 12-06-2017 at 02:06 PM.

  30. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    does that mean something to you? b/c it means nothing to me.


    back to your regularly scheduled fake news programming.
    Nit picking.
    Obtuse as well as lacking any compassion.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  31. #136
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Not a single person has mentioned the issue of civic assimilation yet.
    I call for a crash program for Alabama! The rest of Red Land in due course!
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
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  32. #137
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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Of course you do, you don't believe in American Exceptionalism, I do.
    Oh, we're certainly exceptional, no doubt about it. So's Costa Rica, China, Chile, and Cameroon, each in their own way. But there's no point in quibbling about the 5% we may disagree on, when we disagree with Mr. Blue and the Trumpkins by 95%.

    My point was that I put a larger weight on the selection filter of immigration, rather than the positive characteristics of any particular culture. But both have an effect.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Trumpkins or Trumpists? Its an important question. I think the latter is much more apt, it fits the caudillo goal of Trump very well (eg Peronist ). I am definitely sticking with Trumpists, I think you guys should also.

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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Nit picking.
    Obtuse as well as lacking any compassion.

    well, do you want fake news or not? no sense in perpetuating fake news or shooting the messenger pointing it out. between you and someone else this story has already gone from "illegal woman gets deported" to "woman gets deported and kids are left as wards of the state" and "woman gets taken away from us citizen husband and deported". both of which are far from "nit picking" if you ask me. facts matter.

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    Default Re: We should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Trumpkins or Trumpists? Its an important question. I think the latter is much more apt, it fits the caudillo goal of Trump very well (eg Peronist ). I am definitely sticking with Trumpists, I think you guys should also.
    I'll bite - is there a difference? Or is this hunting fly specks?
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