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Thread: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

  1. #1
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    Default A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    This is from the coroners report from a death in 2016 but it’s a timely reminder for anyone on a boat who uses their stove for warmth - as many do


    http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-...c506d4418ea860


    IT SHOULD have been the start of a beautiful weekend for Nicholas Banfield and his girlfriend when they took to the water off Balmoral for a romantic meal.
    Picking up his partner from Glebe, he took the scenic voyage out to Middle Harbour — where they dined on nachos and one alcoholic drink in his 8.4-metre timber vessel Aquarius.
    Feeling the winter chill, the 23-year-old sealed the hatches and turned on the LPG stove, a coroner at Glebe Coroner’s Court heard yesterday.
    But when friends and police officers boarded the boat at Balmoral some two days later the talented young sailor was dead and his girlfriend was seriously ill.



    An autopsy revealed a lethal dose of carbon monoxide poisoning had choked Banfield to death on the fateful day in July 2016.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    Yep. CO alarm matters.

    People have also been killed motoring down wind in a very light breeze. Again, CO concentration in cabin.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    I lost a friend years ago, he died with his father and brother. A cat had fallen into an underground rain water tank and the boys, the tank owner's neighbours, were asked to pump the tank out.

    The suction hose on the pump was short so they put a stool down inside the tank and put the pump on that and began pumping. After a while the pump "inexplicably " stopped and one of the boys jumped down to investigate and promptly collapsed. The second brother jumped down to help and collapsed. Then the father.

    3 men dead in minutes.

    BEWARE carbon monoxide.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    A similar situation happened at Mammoth Mountain, CA. It is a dormant volcano, and
    when you re skiing sometimes you get the sulfur rotten egg smell. Well, there are several vents on the mountain which are normally blocked off with fencing but it seems a skiier fell into one and passed out, as did the Ski Patrol who arrived to rescue him. The next rescuer was also overcome, IIRC, 3-4 people died that day.

    Ralphie

  5. #5
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    Entry into enclosed spaces is the biggest cause of death in merchant shipping.

    But don’t mix up carbon monoxide poisoning with low oxygen levels.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  6. #6
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    Kay Cottee, the woman who sailed around the world, almost died when her petrol powered genset developed an exhaust leak. She was saved only because it ran out of fuel.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Entry into enclosed spaces is the biggest cause of death in merchant shipping.

    But don’t mix up carbon monoxide poisoning with low oxygen levels.
    I was taught that red blood cells take up carbon monoxide in preference to oxygen.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  8. #8
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    Burning a woodstove, AND an oil furnace in my abode, it's a good pique. This place isn't particularly "tight", but you never know. I've been meaning to spring for a CO monitor to back up the smoke alarm. Thanks for the reminder, Larks!
    So many questions, so little time.

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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I was taught that red blood cells take up carbon monoxide in preference to oxygen.
    That is correct, therefore carbon monoxide is toxic. But carbon dioxide, which is the more common product of burning coal and carbonhydroxide fuels, is dangerous also in spite of not beeing toxic. In some circumstances it is replacing a lot of the oxygen part in the air (normally 21 %) and act suffocating.
    Gruß, Günter

  10. #10
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    As an aside, my wife who is a Psychologist had a client who had some form of chronic short term memory loss that was diagnosed (not by Kate) as being caused by long term exposure to low levels of carbon monoxide poisoning - apparently he had been a traveling salesman and was poisoned by a faulty vehicle exhaust in his van.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    Should a CO monitor be mounted high or low in the cabin?
    Elect a clown expect a circus

  12. #12
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    Should a CO monitor be mounted high or low in the cabin?

    Given Post #3 it appears to be heavier than air so mount it low.

    BUT

    There's a myth that carbon monoxide alarms should be installed lower on the wall because carbon monoxide is heavier than air. In fact, carbon monoxide is slightly lighter than air and diffuses evenly throughout the room.
    In order to ensure that your home has maximum protection, it's important to have a CO detector on every floor. Five feet from the ground. Carbon monoxide detectors can get the best reading of your home's air when they are placed five feet from the ground
    http://www.carbonmonoxidedetectorhq....vier-than-air/

    1. Is carbon monoxide heavier than air?
    Carbon monoxide has a density that is about 97% that of air under normal room temperature. So, to answer the question, no, it is lighter than air. You would think, then, that it would rise. In real-world conditions, there are a lot of forces that cause the CO to mix rather completely into the air. Therefore, it will neither rise nor fall. What might be more important is the temperature of the gases it is part of. Since it is a combustion product, the hot exhaust gases that contain the CO will rise, but are soon mixed into the air you are breathing. If there is a source of CO present, such as a poorly-maintained stove, the CO level will highest close to the source, and decline with distance.

    2. What constitutes air?

    Air is a mixture of gases, and the concentration of each gas varies from time to time and place to place. The two biggest gasses making up air are nitrogen (77%) and oxygen (21%), and argon comes in at almost 1% (10,000 ppm). All of the other gases are present in very small quantities. Carbon dioxide, which plants need to survive, is present at about 340 ppm. Carbon monoxide, the silent killer, makes up less than one part per million of all the air on the planet. Obviously, if some of these gases are produced locally (think air pollution sources), the concentrations of some gases can be significantly higher, including CO.

    3. Should I test my carbon monoxide detector with car exhaust?

    In a word – NO! Exhaust from any internal combustion engine is hot and humid, not to mention that it often contains very high levels of carbon monoxide. It can be very harmful to your health to test a device in this way. Further, it could permanently damage your detector and void your warranty. Don’t do it.
    4. Does a carbon monoxide detector replace a smoke detector?

    No, it does not. A carbon monoxide detector has been built to be very specific for CO gas. It will not detect smoke, methane, or anything else. That being said, it may alert you to a smoldering object before it breaks out into a fire and produces enough smoke for your smoke detector to go off.
    5. Why doesn’t my carbon monoxide detector sound an alarm immediately when there is a lot of CO present?

    There are two answers to this question. The first is explained by the reaction time of the internal sensor to the CO gas. There are different sensor technologies used in CO detectors, and they all react differently when exposed to CO. In no case should it take more than 2 minutes for a CO detector to report CO after the device has been exposed to the gas.
    The second answer to that question has to do with the standards by which the alarm was built. Most consumer grade CO detectors in North America are products listed by the Underwriters Laboratories (UL) and the Canadian Standards Association (CSA). These organizations mandate that CO detectors not sound an alarm immediately when CO is detected, which is why there is a delay. (See the UL/CSA alarm specifications here.) So, the next time you watch that YouTube video of someone testing a CO detector, the device may be performing exactly as it was intended to. The lack of immediate alarming was required by the UL and CSA.
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    But given science, CO is lighter than air. Mount a CO alarm near the ceiling if you can. Many CO meter/alarm units need to be near an AC outlet, typically lowish, and the meter needs to be readable so no higher than eye level anyway. But the battery powered free standing alarm is best mounted a bit high, as is the temperature/smoke alarm.

    And the smoke alarm really should not be used as a broiler timer . . .

  14. #14
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Given Post #3 it appears to be heavier than air so mount it low.

    BUT
    I believe you are incorrect. It is lighter than air. Most guidelines I have seen state they should be wall mounted approximately 5' above the floor, or 2-3' below the ceiling in a standard room with an 8' ceiling. In a boat I think I would try for 6" - 12" below the ceiling if I could find a suitable place on the cabin wall.
    Stay calm, be brave....wait for the signs. Possibly precariously prevaricating.
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    we have gas logs at the new house and i won't leave them on very long b/c of CO worries. i'm going to get a CO alarm this week now that the temps are dropping for good in AL.

    any suggestions on brands/types?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve McMahon View Post
    I believe you are incorrect. It is lighter than air. Most guidelines I have seen state they should be wall mounted approximately 5' above the floor, or 2-3' below the ceiling in a standard room with an 8' ceiling. In a boat I think I would try for 6" - 12" below the ceiling if I could find a suitable place on the cabin wall.
    Given that it is slightly lighter than air, and apparently mixed well with air, on a boat I would prefer the 'belt and braces' method and mount one low down and one about 5'0"high.

    After all they are relatively inexpensive and it is one's life (and others) at stake.
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    " High" is how they should be mounted, just as they are mounted high in homes.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    We put indicator-discs in piston-engined aircraft cockpits in case of an exhaust leak, particularly if the cabin heat comes from an exhaust-pipe muff.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    After two days, he was dead and she was sick?
    Lighter or heavier, being a combustion product, it should rise as it will be hot and less dense

  20. #20
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    Over the years I've either come across people who have done it or who suggest they will take an LPG type home heater on the boat.
    No .
    No . do not do this.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    An unvented LPG heater is a very bad idea in a house too.... you'd have to hope the house leaked a lot of air.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  22. #22
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    A towel hanging in place of the drop boards at night .

  23. #23
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    A towel hanging in place of the drop boards at night .
    How does that work?
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I lost a friend years ago, he died with his father and brother. A cat had fallen into an underground rain water tank and the boys, the tank owner's neighbours, were asked to pump the tank out.

    The suction hose on the pump was short so they put a stool down inside the tank and put the pump on that and began pumping. After a while the pump "inexplicably " stopped and one of the boys jumped down to investigate and promptly collapsed. The second brother jumped down to help and collapsed. Then the father.

    3 men dead in minutes.

    BEWARE carbon monoxide.
    That sounds more like CO2--happens in underground tanks. You keep breathing, but no oxygen. It's faster than CO, which affects the blood's ability to hold oxygen.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: A timely warning - carbon monoxide death on yacht in Oz

    first thing I bought while playing around with the stove in my dory.. Co detector, battery model. prolly a good idea to see if I can get one of those powerless spot detectors too and mount close to stove... I have the battery model in the bunks.


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