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Thread: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

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    Default Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    I decided to make the sail myself for my Argie 15. This will be a nice winter project, and i will take it slowly.

    In respect for professional sailmakers I know this is a profession and takes time to learn. I believe there would be a better result if i ordered the sail from a professional sailmaker, but my motivation is learning something new, and have the joy doing it myself.

    There is also the advantage the designer is active on this forum, and ofcourse mostly velcome to join this thread.

    So first of all a big thankyou to Todd Bradshaw who designed this sail!!!

    Its already tested on another Argie 15 http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...light=Argie+15

    I wont be sewing the panels before christmas, because I belive my wife have a list for me, not included sailmaking :-) But I must order everything I need, so I start this thread now.

    I have purchased 4oz dacron from Sailrite, and a suitable thread. Maybe 4oz is on the light side, but it was recomended by Sailrite for this size of boat. I also have a roll of 3M double sided agressive tape, and ordered spur gromets #1 and a setter, for the reefs. So where am I now?


    • I did watch Sailrites instruction movie about sewing a kit, and its usefull as a starting point
    • I have learned some basics about broadseaming, but I would need help on calculating broadseam lenght and width. As I understand you make a triangle from the corner to the center about 40% from the luff, to place the lenght of the broadseams. I guess the broadseams depends on the sailcloth to be used, and you need a flat area in the middle of the sail?
    • I also understand vertical panels is best for this sail, and I plan on making 6 panels.
    • I know zig-zag stiches are best for sails, and I have tested my wifes Bernina sewing machine. It could easily sew 6 layers of 4oz dacron
    • For the traditional look I want sewn-on boltrope, but I am not shure witch diameter and material would be best for bolt rope. I also want rope on the other edges of the sail.
    • It would be fun making a clew cringle or similar, but I need to find a detailed description for that.
    • I downloaded all of Todd`s photo instructions on lofting and sewing a lugsail, and will use it as my guide.
    • We have a community house, with a big dansing floor perfect for lofting sails.
    • I will need corner patches, but I am not shure how many layers i need.
    • Sewing is new to me exept som leatherwork making some knife sheat, and wallet. Oh and the optional kettleholder in school:-). But my wife knows a lot about sewing, and alredy showed me the basics on the machine.


    So, thats it for now, and hopefully I got your attention. I guess it wont hurt with a thread about sewing a sail...


    Regards

    Fred

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    Default

    And here is Todd's design



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    Last edited by Fredostli; 12-04-2017 at 08:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)




    LET THE FUNN BEGIN

    sw
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    steve

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Good luck with that Fred. Wish I could help out. And it sounds like you better get to work on that other list.

    Gary

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Looks interesting. I think you are going about it carefully, which is good. I dream of a lug for my dory, and that one looks right. I'll be watching.
    I have repaired sails by simply replacing panels or stitching, but not built one like yours from scratch. Good luck

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Don't rope the leech. You will gave to learn how to taper the ends of the roping as they turn up and down the leech at head and foot.
    Peerie Maa's mainsail is roped with 1" circ, 5/8 dia line same material as the canvas, so that they stretch together.
    She has three layers of patch at clew and peak, only one at the tack.
    One way to make cringles, but I would taper and splice the ends into the bolt rope to finish them off. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....struction.html
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Perhaps this helps?


    There is also a description in Sailmaker's Apprentice, a book that I highly recommend.

    I would use some sort of "fake hemp" such as hempex for roping. I have learned to not mix natural fibers with synthetics.
    Hempex is not UV resistant, but I wouldn't worry too much about that since the rope will only be exposed when you're sailing...

    For number of patches, I'm guessing 10 at the tack. You can probably get away with fewer layers in the other corners. I think the order of where there is more strain/need of more layers is tack, clew, throat, peak.
    If the sewing machine cannot handle 10 patches with zigzag, I think straight seams can be ok there.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    10 patches?
    What sort of boats do you sail? My copy of Bowker and Budd only speaks of three, with liners added on bigger sails.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    I've never actually put on more than one, but I've got criticized for that by my sailmaker friend.
    He said something like "Over time, the patches have grown in size and numbers".
    The reason, as I understand it, is not primarily for strength but to prevent creases in the corners.
    The need for many patches, I believe, is greater with synthetic sailcloth than natural fiber canvas.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

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    I see I got your attention, thanks a lot! taking time to study your comments this evening 😊

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Anything more than three or four patches is a waste of time and doesn't do anything to make the sail stronger. Plus, you will already have extra layers in those areas from the luff tape, hems or whatever edge binding you are using, so a corner ring will likely end up going through six or more layers of cloth. Creases at corners are prevented by making sure the weave direction of all patch layers matches that of the main panel fabric under them as well as possible, not by the number of patches. The reason that patch size has grown over time is due to the low stretch and tearing characteristics of Dacron fabric. Natural fiber stretches and distorts a lot, allowing for small patches to dissipate the strain. With stiffer Dacron, those same small patches would probably eventually allow the whole corner to tear off in one piece. So we spread the strain and the multiple lines of stitching and needle holes out over a bigger area for a smoother transition from one layer (the sail panel itself) to several layers where the ring will be. Where a corner patch on a cotton dinghy sail may be as small as three or four inches on each side, the corner patch on a Dacron sail will extend as much as 10% or so of the edge lengths on each side.

    Four ounce fabric (which is actually 3.8 oz. to about 4.2 oz. depending on who makes it) is correct for that sail and thread should be V46 or V69 weight. Roping could be as small as 3/16" and I probably wouldn't go heavier than 5/16" on that sail. The best polyester rope that I have found for it is New England Ropes filament Dacron (not their fuzzy spun stuff). I dye my own and haven't worked with the imitation hemp offerings, so I can't advise on them. I agree that mixing natural fiber rope and synthetic fabric would not be my choice - the mixture is too unpredictable in terms of shrinkage, stretch, etc. Roping would begin on the leech at the sail's peak, along the leech side of the peak corner patches, and go up and around the peak corner, down the head, around the throat, down the luff, around the tack corner, across and aft along the foot, around the clew and up the leech to finish at the upper end of the reef leech patch. Ideally, the ends would be rat-tailed.

    http://www.frayedknotarts.com/tutorials/rattail.html

    If you plan to rope it, it will be very cool when done, but it adds a heck of a lot of hand sewing and labor time to the sailmaking process. It does make the sail stronger, but on a dinghy sail it is overkill and the sail really doesn't need it. If you do choose to use cringles instead of grommets or rings, then you have no choice as the thimble of a cringle needs to rest up against a roped edge. I have the luxury of being able to do a hybrid roped edge, where the rope is machine sewn to a luff tape, which is then sewn over the edge in normal fashion, but it takes a pretty substantial sewing machine to do it.


    Machine sewn hybrid roping. White 3/16" NER Filament Dacron rope dunked in brown oil based wood stain for about a minute and immediately heavily rinsed in naptha (not enough rinsing would leave it stiff).




    Cringles - The size and number of linked anchor holes can vary. Two or three of your #1 spurs would work on dinghy sails.


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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    I had to go check what my friend said, and yes 3-4 patches was what he said. I cannot believe I remembered so wrong.
    That said, I still believe that the tack needs more patches (or other kinds of reinforcements) than the other corners on a lug sail. On other sails the clew probably needs the most enforcement.
    Whether more and larger patches reduces creases, I have no idea. That's what my friend said and my guess is that he's about as experienced as you Todd. Perhaps it plays a role with some materials and not with some?

    The ship's boats at the museum where I work have roping all around, with thicker rope on the luffs, but I wouldn't advise to go through that extra work for such a small sail, I find that splicing together ropes of different diameters is pretty hard to get to look good. I agree that roping on the leech is unneeded. I would chose 8 mm, but bear in mind that a thinner rope takes longer to sew into place.

    Regarding material for roping, I find that eg (Swedish names) hampex, polyhampa and some others are much easier to work with (especially rat tailing) than (Swedish names) polyestersilke, spunflex etc. Basically, the less plastic they look the better.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

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    Thanks for joining Todd. good to have the designer aboard. I like the look of roped edges and might use a spunflex rope. More work just makes it more fun.

    I see Sailrite use 3 layer patches at the corners on the kits for small boats.

    I hope to get some advice calculating the broadseams, and that is something I want to make right, for obvious reasons 😊.

    Moshart I did not hesitate and ordered the book 2 minutes after I read your post. Happy for all you share from making your sail.

    On the photo my wifes Bernia and some test stiches

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Mohsart, You and your friend can think whatever you want, but the idea of relying on more patches to prevent creases is just plain wrong. If you are getting creases, it is because there is something else out of order in the construction or rigging of your sail. It has nothing at all to do with the patching as long as you have a reasonable amount of layers, sized properly and oriented properly with regard to weave direction. Extra patches aren't going to fix a design, construction or rigging flaw.

    As I mentioned above, if the rope you are using is spun polyester (or has the word "spun" in it) it isn't the right rope. You want a fairly firm, continuous filament line for stretch resistance. If you decide that roping is more work than you want to do, that sail can be built with a hemmed leech, bound head and foot edges (2" Dacron strips folded in half over the edges) and two layers of luff tape (a 2"-3" wide strip folded over the edge, topped by a 3"-4"wide strip folded over the edge). It is plenty strong enough for that sail. Without roping cringles would be replaced with sewn rings or spur grommets (#2 work fine).

    Tack corners on most sails can actually tolerate smaller corner patches than those that border the leech on one side. Tack and throat corners tend to get extra reinforcement by the luff, foot, or head tapes or edging wrapping around the corner. If in doubt, stick with about 10% of the edge lengths for the largest patch, and reduce those additional patches under it by 1"-1.5" increments. Strength-wise, that should be perfectly fine. The proper order in placing a stack of patches is to baste the second largest patch on first. This is followed by the next smallest on top of it, followed again by the next smallest until you have placed them all and temporarily stuck them in place. Finally, top off the stack with the largest patch covering all the others. Then you sew through all of them along their edges. You won't be able to see through the top edge to see exactly where the edges of patches under it are located. It's perfectly legit to draw a few light pencil lines on the top of the final patch to show you where you need to put your stitch lines.

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    Tack corners on most sails can actually tolerate smaller corner patches than those that border the leech on one side. Tack and throat corners tend to get extra reinforcement by the luff, foot, or head tapes or edging wrapping around the corner.
    This will be why I find that Peerie's sail has only 1 layer of patch at the tack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Don't rope the leech. You will gave to learn how to taper the ends of the roping as they turn up and down the leech at head and foot.
    Peerie Maa's mainsail is roped with 1" circ, 5/8 dia line same material as the canvas, so that they stretch together.
    She has three layers of patch at clew and peak, only one at the tack.
    One way to make cringles, but I would taper and splice the ends into the bolt rope to finish them off. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....struction.html
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    I believe that you misunderstand me, or I do you, or both.
    I think the key words are "as long as you have a reasonable amount of layers, sized properly", my most recent sails had just one patch per corner and were too small. They had creases despite correct weave orientation.
    Yes, the tack may not need more patches than eg the clew due to other ways that it is enforced. My point was that the tack on a lug sail gets more strain than the tack of say a sprit sail, and may need more enforcement than that.
    I may be wrong here, I'm not at all experienced with lug sails, but that is what I think.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    my most recent sails had just one patch per corner and were too small. They had creases despite correct weave orientation.
    The solution there would be to re-work your corners with proper patching. A corner patch is there to make a smooth strength/thickness transition from the normal panel fabric to a spot at the edge thick enough to hold a corner fastener, ring, etc. and take localized, focused stress. It is not there to eliminate faults and more patches than the typical number don't prevent faults, though a badly patched corner can certainly help to create them.

    The tack is part of the luff, and as most are aware, the luff of a lugsail is generally put under a fair amount of tension when sailing in order to keep it from sagging aft or to leeward and to keep the peak up, the leech firm, etc. The entire luff of a lug needs to be built quite sturdy. It's constantly under stress and not backed up by a spar. Yes, it may be under more stress than a spritsail's tack corner, but the normal corner patching schedule is perfectly adequate for a lug when combined with the well reinforced luff.

    Also, don't underestimate how much a bad roping job can screw up a perfectly good sail. Hand roping is generally sewn on under tension, slightly shorter than the edge it is being attached to. By bending the rope either toward you or away from you as you stitch it onto the sail you can add or remove tension, bit by bit. Once done, we want even tension along an edge that takes a bit of halyard, downhaul or outhaul tension to pull the edge out smoothly. Clean, properly tensioned and even roping is a learned skill, and not one most folks are born with. In terms of people making their first sails, the chances of producing a good one are better without roping.

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Ok, i might do myself a favor not roping. I tend to be a bit ambitious some times, and maybe my chances making a proper sail is better without roping. I am not afraid of labor time because the winter here is long and cold, and the only other projects I have is making a guitar and an iceboat, and smaller part I can work on for the Argie, in my heated man-cave... oh,,, and the list mentioned above

    A question: Do I need to purchase dacron tape and luff tape, or can this be cut from the dacron i have for the sail? I know its not expensive to buy pre cut and pre folded tape but the shipping is a bit more than I like, if I can avoid a new order.

    I ordered some steel corner rings that can be sewed in, but I guess you also need a ring inside to protect the threads, as in your photo above. Could not find it on Sailrite. A spur grommet is an alternative, but bying a setter just for a couple of corner rings is a bit too much I think. Is there other alternatives for the corners?

    I guess I make the corner patches three layers. I will make a little drawing and check with you before I start making them. I will also draw a scetch for the broadseams and hopefully get some feedback here. (Just need to do some reading first)

    Edit: they have a setter on sailrite for 35 usd. not so bad maybe...

    Fred
    Last edited by Fredostli; 12-05-2017 at 03:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Not being an expert, i will agree with Todd that a bad roping job will/can completely ruin a well made sail. I prefer pre stretched webbing to fix corner rings, or maybe in a luff reinforcement. I found the cost of obtaining spur grommets and the tools needed to set them, beyond the logic of rings and webbing.Just my take.

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Thanks Scaraborcraft. I looked at Sailrite instruction video on webbing on corner rings. Absolutely an alternative.

    I have been reading a bit in the thread "Lug sail design and construction". When it comes to broadseaming, I now can see why this is not drawed in the sailplan. As I understand a good sailmaker do this on the lofting floor based on experience, an also fabric etc. I try to imagine the sail in 3d, and think about 45% rule for the broadseam mentioned in that thread, and will post a photo of what I imagine ruffly the broadseam trianges will be. How far am I? photo in next post via tapatalk.

    Fred

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    Broad seam zone suggestion


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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    The top zone might be a bit big. I'd probably go down to that little dot (don't know what it is) that is slightly above the current upper broadseam zone's "peak" (what's the proper term for a peak that points downward?). In any case, the upper broadseams will all be short enough to be pretty slight (which is fine). Remember that you will actually be working with broadseams that extend out a couple inches or so beyond the lofting, as we don't cut the sail's perimeter down to its final size until all seams and broadseams have been basted in place. So if we want a particular broadseam to end up at 3/4" wide, for example, we will shoot for that width to happen at the edge of the lofting. The excess cloth will continue out a bit past the lofting, and the broadseam out there will be a bit greater than our target width. Once the seams are basted and the excess cut off we will have the proper perimeter shape and the desired broadseam widths.

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    Thanks a lot Todd, good to hear I was not too far out. The dot might be where I first considered to draw the line 😉. As I understand shaping the sail you also choose which properties you give the sail. I want a sail with good propertied in light winds. That will suite best the use of the boat. Any thing to consider broadseaming?

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    I think it's easy to overthink these matters.
    Let's say the ratio of the broadseams is to widen the seams by 1 cm per meter and the length of the longest broadseam is 0.5 m in your sketch and 0.45 m if the zone is drawn to the dot.
    Then the seam widens up to 2.5 cm (if the "normal" seams are 2 cm wide) or to 2.45 cm.
    Each side of the seam diverges by half of the difference, ie by 2.5 mm or 2.25 mm respectively.
    Now this is the widest point of the longest broadseam.

    Not saying that it doesn't matter, but how accurately can you place the panels/seams?

    (Sorry for the metrics, Todd)

    /Mats
    Last edited by mohsart; 12-05-2017 at 04:54 PM.
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    Never done this before, but I believe using double sided tape before sewing,,, wery accurate.

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    But if you wan to widen the seam with ex. 2 cm, dont you measure that on one side. I dont understand this diverging

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Namnlös.jpg

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

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    Need to sleep on that one Mats 😊

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    It's kind of nerve-chilling to post in a thread where Todd is (or is going to be) active, I more or less expect to get a slap in my face for not understanding the concepts at all.
    Wish me luck! ;-)

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Wouldn't it be better to connect the ends of the broadseams with fair curves, instead of straight lines and angles? Or does the stretch in the cloth make this a waste of time?

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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    I think it's easy to overthink these matters.
    Let's say the ratio of the broadseams is to widen the seams by 1 cm per meter and the length of the longest broadseam is 0.5 m in your sketch and 0.45 m if the zone is drawn to the dot.
    Then the seam widens up to 2.5 cm (if the "normal" seams are 2 cm wide) or to 2.45 cm.
    Each side of the seam diverges by half of the difference, ie by 2.5 mm or 2.25 mm respectively.
    Now this is the widest point of the longest broadseam.

    Not saying that it doesn't matter, but how accurately can you place the panels/seams?
    Yes, quite accurately, though you need to pay attention to where the actual edge of the lofting is, aim for your widest bit of broadseaming to occur at that edge (widening in a straight line from its beginning) and then factor in whatever flare you plan to add at the end. The transition from straight taper to flare should be a smooth curve. Angular changes in direction are to be avoided as they make hard spots or other distortions in your sail. In the example above you would be aiming for a seam width of 2.45-2.5 cm at the edge with a nice, straight taper, but actually begin flaring maybe 100 mm or so before the lofting's edge and once finished and trimmed you might wind up with a final flared seam width at the edge of 3.5 cm or more.

    Remember, there are no rules set in stone for broadseaming rates, so much is left up to the sailmaker. On a vertically paneled sail we don't have as much sail shaping ability using broadseams as we would have on a cross-cut sail. We can use them to move the sail's draft away from the edges and toward the center and we can cup the head and foot edges for a bit of end plate effect, but that's about it. On a cross-cut construction we can do a lot more shaping of the sail's entry, making it flat-ish (less broadseaming flare) or more rounded (more flare). Flatter entry is usually better for fast, fairly easily driven hulls, and rounded entry areas produce more power for pushing a fatter, heavier or slower boat through a chop. Cross-cuts can also toss in a couple small leech broadseams to help keep the leech tight (18"-24" long X 1/8" with straight taper and no flare at the ends).

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    Hasslö, Blekinge, Sweden
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    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Quote Originally Posted by robm View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to connect the ends of the broadseams with fair curves, instead of straight lines and angles? Or does the stretch in the cloth make this a waste of time?
    The picture is out of scale.
    The increment of the seam-width per seam-length for the actual broadseam is so slight that no fairing is needed, or should I say it looks perfectly fair.
    The flair at the edge of the sail on the other hand needs to form a fair curve.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

  33. #33
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    Aug 2013
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    Valnesfjord, Norway
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    Default

    I need to visualize things to understand. Lets say panel 2 is overlapping panel one following that blue line representing the broadseam. Is this the correct way to measure it? And then panel 1 has drawed a flared broadseam and b1 no flare? Dont mind the dimensions just a visualisation.

    If you want to make this flare broadseam line, is it useful you use a flexible batten and draw a smoth curved pencil line on panel 1 to follow taping panel 2?


    Sent fra min SM-N950F via Tapatalk
    Last edited by Fredostli; 12-06-2017 at 03:50 AM.

  34. #34
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    Jun 2000
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    8,571

    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Don't overthink it. You know about where your broadseam should start. Proceed in a nice straight taper toward the sail's edge and aim to end up at the lofting's edge with the prescribed amount of overlap increase. But.... around 6" before you actually arrive at the edge as you lay down your seam tape, increase the overlap a bit, smoothly adding another 3/8" to 1/2" to the overlap at the edge and you'll most likely be fine. You might do it better on your second, tenth or fortieth lugsail, but you'll probably be OK on this one.

    It's always kind of surprising how early in the sailmaking process all the shaping is finished. After that, there is a whole lot of tedious trim-out and reinforcement work before you actually get to see how you did.

  35. #35
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    Aug 2013
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    Valnesfjord, Norway
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    660

    Default Re: Making a standing lugsail for my Argie 15 (Todd Bradshaw design)

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    Don't overthink it. You might do it better on your second, tenth or fortieth lugsail, but you'll probably be OK on this one.
    Looking forward to the fortieth!!! :-)

    Feels like shaping a sail like this follow the same way of thinking as building traditional Nordlands-boats. You have som principles to follow, but shape the boat as you go and do individual variations based on the use of the boat, material available etc...

    I have done a lot of sewing in my head already and look forward to start. i asked about pre cut dacron tape vs cutting from the sailcloth I have Any opinions on that?

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