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Thread: Small Boat Square Rig

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Small Boat Square Rig

    Pitsligo is certainly able to decide whether my post is worthwhile or not, as I'd expect from anyone.
    Pitsligo is being pretty casual about all this, so please don't anyone get tetchy about wandering about a little bit around the OP topic --a *little* bit; if it wanders onto baloon spinnakers tetchyness could be warranted. It's all cool. The stuff that isn't about square rig gets skimmed over and noted; the more OP-oriented stuff is getting filed away in more detailed fashion. Twin headsails have certainly caught my attention in the past, so more information, from someone who has done it, is not unwelcome.

    Ben, thank you for the details. That's a good system to work backward from, for what I would be attempting with Bucephalus. I wouldn't attempt to fly a squaresail on the wind, but there are some principles that I can cogitate on and adapt as needed, especially if I find myself troubleshooting a simpler system.

    Paul, were you also part of building Varin, the lestabat? I used to keep that WoodenBoat Mag under my pillow...

    Dave --wow! That's pretty awesome. Definitely in the "he knoweth that of which he speaketh" category. I'm surprised how high you flew it, but I don't know why I'm surprised. Thank you for posting the pix, and the link to the yard details. I like the braces led to the mizzen; good fair lead. Did you ever try it with the sheets led farther aft, and if so, and what we see is the best lead, what made it the best lead?

    Thank you, one and all,
    Alex

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Small Boat Square Rig

    I found an old remark in a Sydney newspaper, circa about 1895, that referred to the joy at which those who sailed the Sydney "skiffs" and other open boats ditched the old squaresail in favour of the spinnaker. Apparently hauling a heavy yard up the mast was a complete bear. Having sailed a replica 18 Foot Skiff and found how hard its pole was to handle, one shudders at the thought of a rig that could be harder than the enormous spinnaker of a 22 Footer.

    22 or 24 under twin squaresaiulspwhrs tyrell.jpg
    Last edited by Chris249; 12-05-2017 at 06:32 AM.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Small Boat Square Rig

    Alex, the squaresail on Drake should be about a foot shorter across the foot. This would allow the sheets to manage the "belly" of the sail better.

    I can shift the sheeting points forwards or aft for the square on Drake. The stanchion bases all are pierced for a shackle, so the sheets come down to blocks which are shackled to any of these bases. Take your pick based on the shape of the sail.

    On a reach, the windward block would be positioned forward of the leeward one, so that the sail mimics the position of the yard, which will have been adjusted (swung around at an angle) for the reaching wind with the braces.

    The sheets then come aft (after going through the blocks on the stanchion bases) to cleats at the cockpit. I don't have spare permanent cleats there, so I rig temporary ones, like this,


    (In this photo the cleat is being used for a mizzen staysail sheet, hence the upward angle of the line.)

    The idea for these cleats came from a book I read about ancient Chinese junk rigs. Very simple and strong made out of at least 4-ply wood.

    Anyway, as I said earlier, if the course changes, or the wind direction changes, you need to adjust the square via the braces and the sheets. Four lines. It's not a big deal, but that's how you control it.

    On a larger square-rigger, the sails are obviously in stacks (course, lower topsail, upper topsail, lower tgallant, uppertgallant, etc) and their yards can be linked -- the sheet-blocks located on the ends of the yard below it. This reduces the workload by automatically controlling the sheeting, more or less. You adjust the various braces and the whole stack of sails swivels.

  4. #39
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    Mar 2006
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    La Conner, WA
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    139

    Default Re: Small Boat Square Rig

    Paul, were you also part of building Varin, the lestabat? I used to keep that WoodenBoat Mag under my pillow

    Thank you, one and all,
    Alex[/QUOTE]

    Hi Alex, I was not involved in the building of Varin.

    Just another bit of trivia, Part of the reason to rig braces with quite a bit of down angle relative to the yard is that the after brace is also acting as a back stay to assist tensioning the luff.

    Of course it might also have something to do with running out of boat in these small craft.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Small Boat Square Rig

    Paul, I don't quite understand your post.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Small Boat Square Rig

    YE GODS!! *Now* I have something to aspire to! Oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy!

    Let's see: main, drifter jib, square course, square topsail, f&a yard-and-jackyard topsail, and ringtail. (Mother of god! Just look at that ringtail!) A jimmy green would be extraneous, so they're only missing a watersail and a studdingsail or two to make that sailplan complete.

    You'd need an oxygen mask if you got to leeward of her --there's no air left downwind of *that* sailplan.

    File this one under "Sailmaker insanity."

    Whew. Okay. I think I've caught my breath now.

    Thank you, Dave. That all makes sense. And those cleats are quite clever; I need to remember that.

    As for a stack of sails, hmm... I'll bet I could manage course, topsail, and topgallant, but I'd need to build a proper Jervis brace winch... No, I'd better keep it simple for now.

    Part of the reason to rig braces with quite a bit of down angle relative to the yard is that the after brace is also acting as a back stay to assist tensioning the luff.
    Of course it does! I wouldn't have thought of that.

    Dave, if I understand correctly, what Paul is saying is that when reaching, with the windward edge of the sail forward and acting as a luff, and the windward sheet shifted forward to hold the tack down, the downward lead of the aft brace produces leverage on the yard, working against the fulcrum of the slings, to tighten the luff between the tack and the windward/forward end of the yard. More important for a rig that's intended to go to windward, but still worth remembering.

    Alex

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Small Boat Square Rig

    On my little braceless 'room and a half' faering I've not felt the need for braces or for backstays. The shrouds, one on each side come in far enough back to do the backstay job like they do on a modern racing dinghy. But one of the things the Afjords faering has is a stem head that is at least 18" above the stem through which the bowline leads. Instead of a mostly down angle like we see on the Sognabat, it runs just a little down from horizontal. This gives it a real nice angle, something that I haven't seen on the low stem faerings. The Afjord faering also has a long deep keel and really hard bilge. Turn of the bilge sits about 18" above the bottom of the keel on the trailer. Keel itself is about 6 and there is a wicked hollow carved garboard. I think these were optimized more for sailing that the southern boats.

    When my bowline is hauled taught, the tack of the sail fastened down to the sail stick in the forward hole, slacking or trimming the sheet only affects about 1/3rd of the sail.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Small Boat Square Rig

    OK, I get it now -- makes sense.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Small Boat Square Rig

    Dave, Pitsligo’s description is correct on the braces acting as a backstay, an adjustable backstay.

    Picture a modern Genoa, with the backstay tension cranked up with hydraulics to keep the fore stay/ luff taut.

    Now cut the top of the Genoa off and add a square sail yard that is hoisted at its center via a normal haliard. That yard can pivot at it’s center, allowing the luff of the sail to sag. The main tensioner is the ‘bolinje’, the bow line that is rove to the luff (actually it is attached to both vertical edges of this sail as it is meant to go to weather, and when you tack the luff and the leetch change places), but the other luff tensioner is the lee brace, preventing the horizontal yard from pivoting vertically as well as controlling some sag to leeward.

    Actually, some of the old sails in Norway looked exactly like a Genoa with the top cut off and a yard added, they typically needed to lower the yard and move it leeward when tacking.

    I am sure all this verbiage is clear as mud, we probably need some models with little sticks on them like the fighter jocks use to illustrate dogfighting.

    Hope that helps.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Small Boat Square Rig

    Alex, money should not be a problem: I get my sailcloth from Contender, and they also offer sometimes 'Second Cloth' for a fraction of the normal price. You could ask a sailmaker to sell you the stuf because they do only business with professionals. And I think you could use something like Superkote 250 and only glue the seams. I used it for a 230 sq.m. gennaker on a big (25meter) Tjalk, so you can surely use it for a squaresail that you use for downwind work. It is cheap enough to make a scale model and I could help you out if you want to with that. Frank
    see my blog on www.oarandsail.nl

  11. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Hell
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    Default Re: Small Boat Square Rig

    shipmates, this book contains a few rigging details of small cruising yachts fitted with square rigs. . .



    about boats like this. . .

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Small Boat Square Rig

    FF: Thank you for the tip about the "factory seconds" sailcloth, as well as for the offer of assistance. I may well take you up on the offer. At the moment my life is rather chaotic (divorce), and winter makes working in the shop less than appealing for building spars, but I've been imagining a squaresail for B for long enough, and the thoughts expressed on this thread have been educational enough, that if I have the cash for the sailcloth I may well try it. It'd be a fun summer project.

    Paul: I've got that book ordered. Thank you --I think. I probably shouldn't be buying more books, but I was seduced by the photo you posted and it wasn't even $9, so I splurged. (You are a fiend.)

    Alex

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