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Thread: dead men's eye

  1. #36
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    What are you going to use the cleat(s) for?

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

  2. #37
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    I like my boat to be quiet from below.
    Do dyneema shrouds and lanyards "creek" ?
    I juice my lanyards with 90 weight gear oil now and then .
    My father in law had a dog name o "Rusty" . But his actual name was "shuduprustyshudup".

  3. #38
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    Default Re: dead men's eye


  4. #39
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  5. #40
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    HG Smith's drawings are still the clearest after all these years. I love my Marlinspike Sailor. I think anyone who has a boat in any traditional form, even a "character boat" should have a copy of it.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  6. #41
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    deadeyes are making a comeback with modern multihulls, now in aluminium with dyneema shrouds that is so nice to splice. Frank

  7. #42
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    Quote Originally Posted by ersin boke View Post
    I suspected that.
    It may work, but possibly look a bit stupid. I'd go with a conventional setup; even with natural fibre rope, you won't loosen/tighten the shrouds often enough to warrant a cleat.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

  8. #43
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    Default Re: dead men's eye










  9. #44
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    Talk about reinventing the wheel.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #45
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    When I decided to produce new mizzen mast, I try to find the way free from turnbuckles, stainless steel ropes and rig. I planned to use rope and for connection ,poacher's knot , and deadeyes.

    I have no idea how deadeyes woeks and I produced two of them as original ones. The result was imazing. It works just like standart blocks. Then I decided to use them. Ofcourse I can use modern ropes which are seems traditional ropes.

    BUt the problem is they are not real traditional ropes. All my life I hate the fake products.

    I decided to use manila rope and deadeyes.. Why.. ?

    Because I beliave non tradable knowledge destroyed by the existing system even they are valuabe and useful.

    Thomas Gilmer produced the blue moon he did not used deadeyes. Even here there are lot of experienced sailors boat builders but a few of them have full infomation about deadeye maybe.

    As I said , two weeks ago I have no information about them. Still I have not. But I am traying to find a good way to use them for such small boats as size and connection knots etc. Correct or not I am share the results and share here. All commends welcome.

    But,

    To inform you guys , This mizzen mast can stand still without any shrouds under 30 knots wind blow. It is only 4 m. long and carry 4,65 m2 sailing area. 6 mm manila rope can carry 300 kgf and minimum 3 shrouds carry all the loads. Total load to the all shrouds no more than 150 kgf maximum in 40 knots wind blow.

    BUt more important than this, During my investigation I learned that Captain Nelson used manila rope of his ships. If he did not see any harm to use manila rope and sail aproximately alla the seas, and I am not good sailor than this ofcourse and If he use manila , I can use safely..

    Again , I am not a boat builder or more experienced guy for in traditional wooden boats, I try to find a good way to use them. I am not saying my way is correct..

    But getting experience to find the way how they are use such small boats. For example the documents that you posted before shows the knots. But such small deadeyes it is so difficult to use such traditional connections. Instead, poacher's knot mach more suitable and easiy to use for such small deadeyes.

    All commnents welcome but such words crappy or stupid etc. reduces my desire to share ..

  11. #46
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    Quote Originally Posted by ersin boke View Post
    When I decided to produce new mizzen mast, I try to find the way free from turnbuckles, stainless steel ropes and rig. I planned to use rope and for connection ,poacher's knot , and deadeyes.

    I have no idea how deadeyes woeks and I produced two of them as original ones. The result was imazing. It works just like standart blocks. Then I decided to use them. Ofcourse I can use modern ropes which are seems traditional ropes.

    BUt the problem is they are not real traditional ropes. All my life I hate the fake products.

    I decided to use manila rope and deadeyes.. Why.. ?

    Because I beliave non tradable knowledge destroyed by the existing system even they are valuabe and useful.

    Thomas Gilmer produced the blue moon he did not used deadeyes. Even here there are lot of experienced sailors boat builders but a few of them have full infomation about deadeye maybe.

    As I said , two weeks ago I have no information about them. Still I have not. But I am traying to find a good way to use them for such small boats as size and connection knots etc. Correct or not I am share the results and share here. All commends welcome.

    But,

    To inform you guys , This mizzen mast can stand still without any shrouds under 30 knots wind blow. It is only 4 m. long and carry 4,65 m2 sailing area. 6 mm manila rope can carry 300 kgf and minimum 3 shrouds carry all the loads. Total load to the all shrouds no more than 150 kgf maximum in 40 knots wind blow.

    BUt more important than this, During my investigation I learned that Captain Nelson used manila rope of his ships. If he did not see any harm to use manila rope and sail aproximately alla the seas, and I am not good sailor than this ofcourse and If he use manila , I can use safely..

    Again , I am not a boat builder or more experienced guy for in traditional wooden boats, I try to find a good way to use them. I am not saying my way is correct..

    But getting experience to find the way how they are use such small boats. For example the documents that you posted before shows the knots. But such small deadeyes it is so difficult to use such traditional connections. Instead, poacher's knot mach more suitable and easiy to use for such small deadeyes.

    All commnents welcome but such words crappy or stupid etc. reduces my desire to share ..
    No, it is not difficult to tie the correct knots in smaller stuff. Manilla is OK, but not long lived, if you buy the best. You have found a third rate supply of poor quality rope. If you do want those shrouds to be effective, use the methods set out in the references that I posted. Meanwhile, thank the lord that your mast will stand without shrouds, 'cause I would not rely on those if they do come under real load. It would be a good idea to stretch those shrouds between two trees and load them to stretch them and settle any splices.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  12. #47
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    I think your cleat is handsome, and I like the fact you are interested in traditional materials and ways of doing things. You must buy some better rope however.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    Traditional ropes are not the problems here, nor are traditional methods.
    Get good traditional ropes, use well proven traditional methods and all will be good.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

  14. #49
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    Thank you lupussonic.

    Manila has been used old times and maybe at that time it was the best product. I just wonder it is capacitry and all other properties. As you said I am interesting in the traditional materials and how to use them. and try to substract suitable and adaptable old thech to my boat and for my sailing style.. just like dead eyes..

  15. #50
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    Quote Originally Posted by ersin boke View Post
    Thank you lupussonic.

    Manila has been used old times and maybe at that time it was the best product. I just wonder it is capacitry and all other properties. As you said I am interesting in the traditional materials and how to use them. and try to substract suitable and adaptable old thech to my boat and for my sailing style.. just like dead eyes..
    Manila as a fibre is fine. Whoever spun your rope did a bad job. If nylon or polyester rope looked like that we would still say it was poor quality rope. The tension in the three strands are not even and the lay is looser (not enough twists per metre) than it should be.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  16. #51
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    You seem to be missing a point.
    Manilla isn't a quality stamp, nor is hemp or any other material.
    Manilla (or hemp) is a material, it can be used to make really good or really bad ropes.
    Your batch of manilla seems to be bad.
    That has nothing to do with whether manilla is good or bad, it's just how it is.
    Then the cleat, sure try it out. If hundreds of years of experience haven't found it's a good thing, it may just have been overlooked.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

  17. #52
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    Old sailors did not use any cleats on the ropes. Why? maybe for big loads it is not safe like knots. Maybe due to the another reason. Deadeye is not used widely maybe last 100 years. Today a few people ..

    I try to adapt such tredidtional experiance for my requirements in my boat. Maybe cleat using on the rope can be suitable for small boats? How we learn. ? Just try..

    to connect the cleat on the rope take 3 minutes today.. Removing maybe shorten than this. I think it is working. BUt I will check tomarrow what happened.

    But with using deadeyes, I can use rope as shrouds (can be dynema or what else ) and I can connect top of the mast with shrouds without any matal rig. This iş most important for me.

    Also during the sail, I can easily adjust my mizzen mast , using deadeye system.

    why I share here..? because there are lot of experienced people here and their comments are so important. But I beliave that during to make comment, the wording is important.

    I follow this forum more than 2 years and generally I prefer to read. I can share more than this but there are some people who are show themself how they know everything. Please do not misunderstand ,I do not blame anybody due to their behavior . This is normal. My problem is , to argue any subject with these kind of men is so difficult.

    Besides this, English is not my mother language and I can misunderstand somebody or somebody can misandrstand my words..

    Again thank you for all commends..

  18. #53
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    I think that the reason deadeye lanyards were set up with a tackle and then secured with a cow hitch and siezings was because that method put much more tension into the system than you can achieve swigging up around a cleat. As they were not meant to be adjustable clapping on siezings was the best solution.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  19. #54
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    Once the frapping turns are on there's no real strain left at the bitter end, so a simple back hitch will hold everything together. But I don't see any harm in adding the cleat. I have seen cleats specified for catamaran beam-hull connections where easy setup and breakdown are required.

    Like this:

    -Dave

  20. #55
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/cleats.htm

    there is rigging cleat in this site. They are so similar that I produced..

    here is some modern sample..

    Last edited by ersin boke; 12-09-2017 at 04:22 AM.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    Ok, so your mast doesn't need shrouds. Good. I was concerned about your safety using poor quality ropes.
    How do I know it's poor quality? I have made thousands of meters of rope using various methods and materials.
    I am by no means a rope maker master, but I know more than the basics.
    I also have quite some experince of sailing, and also using ropes in other fields, like mountain climbing and farming.
    Again, no expert but I'd say I'm more experienced than the average man.
    I work as a rigger at the naval museum in Karlskrona, Sweden, and I am responsible for the rigging of the full rigged ship Jarramas and 10 two-masted ship's boats.
    A lot of people on this forum are professionals who really know what they are talking about, and who I learn a lot from.

    My own boat has this solution, that in my experience works better for small craft, it is the same principle as deadeyes. It is as traditional as deadeyes, but looks more natural.


    I get the feeling that you want to use deadeyes because it looks cool, which is fine. Whatever rocks your boat.
    A cleat on the shroud will probably work fine, but look a bit funny for those of us who knows how it's usually done.

    And please think it over if you plan to apply the same solution to a bigger mast, where the shrouds matters, especially regarding the quality of the rope.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

  22. #57
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    I heard there is a rope called manila just two weeks ago.
    I have less knowledge about other ropes from avarage people also
    I did not rigging even any boat including myself
    Think that how I am simple mind that I am using crappy manila rope as shrouds
    How I am simple mind that I think a mast can stand without shrouds

    Sailing.. ? Ignore directly ..no need the mentioned about..

    I understand that how you experianced guy when I read your block . Honestly Appreciated.

    Why I am using deadeyes? Before explain , let me explain why I am using a wooden gaff cutter yawl.

    First and ofcıurse I like wooden .. for example at this moment I am sitting my grand fathers arm chair and I think it is 80 years old.

    But more than this , let me take a passage from Tom Cunliffe's famous book.. He olso take the words of great Irish circumnavigator Conor O'brien.. what he says..

    ' these boats .... were built by poor men for poor men, suffering from the two great spritual evils of poverty _ ignorance and prejudice. That they still produced fine boats is to the glory of natural man , who , living close to elemental things, develops an instinct for the earth or the sea which passes sophisticated understanding '

  23. #58
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    O 'brien said this words for English working boats maybe but All the world were the same I think. As an example tirhandil who is famous Aegean working boat (John Hannah who effected these boats and design the Tahiti ketch ) also produced by poor people for poor people.

    BUt the key sentence is starting with these words , living close to elemental things, and so on..

    This is the reason that I am using a gaff cutter small yawl , because it has amazing sailing techonolgy according to me. easy and functional..

    Why amazing ? think that such kind non skilled sailor like me can sail 1000 miles voyage in Aegean sea with this traditional boat.

    Why I want to use deadeyes?

    Sure you know better than me , during the sailing with such yawl with full sails, windflow on the mainsail , flows directly to the mizzen sail when the boat close to the wind direction especially. This flow , deformed the shape of mizzen sail.

    To solve this problem , I must tight the mizzen mast back .. But due to the fixed and tight shrouds I can not do this and before I lacked little bit steel wire ropes and and using dummy (removable ) shrouds who connected to the bumkin I solve the problem. Tight the dummy shrouds .. That was my solution.

    When I investigate the deadeyes and I saw that they are working just like typical blocks if produced originally ofcourse , to solve my problem. I mean during the sailing , I can cahange the tension easily if I use deadeyes. Different than the old using I change their tension every sails. Therfore rigging cleat seems practical to me..

    This is the reason that , I want to use deadeyes and rigging cleats . I have no enough experiance how it works and due to that I share here..

    Meybe a easy knot can solve my problem instead of such rigging cleat.. We shall see.

    Again thank you for all comments..

  24. #59
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    On making natural fibre rope.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  25. #60
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    Default Re: dead men's eye

    My all time favorite rope for making up dead eye lanyards was Italian hemp! It was fine in texture strong with not much stretch. It was easy the hands and could be scrape tapered, for spliced eyes , showing no frapped ends! Great cordage! It also smelled of Stockholm tar which was like perfume to the nose of the sailor!
    Jay

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