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Thread: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

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    Default Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days (ARTICLE LINK)



    Image: Tesla

    Excerpt
    Tesla has completed construction of a massive 100 megawatt, 129 MWh battery installation in South Australia. The new facility boasts the largest megawatt rating for any grid-connected battery installation in the world.

    The project was completed less than two months after the contract was signed on September 29, putting it ahead of schedule. Musk had promised Australian authorities that he would complete the project in 100 days or the project would be free. Musk has said it would cost Tesla "$50 million or more" if the company failed to meet the deadline.

    "Congratulations to the Tesla crew and South Australian authorities who worked so hard to get this manufactured and installed in record time!" Musk tweeted late on Wednesday night (Thursday in Australia).

    The state of South Australia saw a need to beef up its electricity infrastructure after a September 2016 storm caused a state-wide blackout. State officials wanted to ensure that didn't happen again, and they wanted to find a solution that made use of renewable energy.
    #include [std-disclaimer]

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    with what pleasure, what joy,
    you come into harbors seen for the first time...

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Evidence of the growing dominance of non-state actors. While geography-based systems of authority won't disappear any time soon, their relevance is diminishing swiftly. And with them, there's a threat to our political ideologies from Rousseau, Locke, Hobbes etc. which ultimately ground sovereignty in the individual citizen.

    Elon Musk and his peers remind me of medieval Popes/Archbishops, or of the heads of immensely strong warlike nomadic tribes. It's not that they don't have a relationship with particular geographies, but they don't seek to rule them or really displace their present rulers. They live and work in a different overlay of power and authority, which is fairly disconnected with the control of territory - and deeply rooted in the control of knowledge and expertise. And with it, with the confidence of populations in their superior expertise.

    This dynamic been growing for a while - it has been true for decades that sound accounting practice is what the Big Accounting Firms said that it was. Governments looking for legitimacy for policy initiatives try to find it through appraisals they commission from KPMG, which will be more convincing to the voting public than any Minister's statements.

    The trouble, though, is that there's a disconnection between the interests of these non-state actors, and mere folks like you and me. We have no recourse or means to impose accountability on Musk's firms, or to prompt any re-thinks when directions the firm takes prove to have unanticipated negative consequences in our particular lives. While Musk is tending to embody the Benevolent Dictator version of group-leader rather than the Genghis Khan version, there are no guarantees. History suggests that in aggregate, Lord Acton's optimism will bear out, eh?

    I think that this is part of the reason that we're seeing a resurgence of authoritarian nationalisms - the anxiety provoking their rise is as much driven by a legitimate fear about the loss of even the minimal control citizens have had in representative democracies, as about fear of "extreme left" ideas. Nobody knows how to ensure that the welfare of individuals as people (rather than as consumers or raw materials) is even considered by such organizations, when there are no lines of accountability leading back to ordinary people.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    The issue that I have is that these individuals/tech companies have the ability to enact positive change or to help to maintain the status quo. In China, it is apparent the Apple has supported the "party line" in the removal of apps from the Chinese App Store (including Skype, of all things) and the removal of VPN's that users in China have used to get around government censorship.

    It's a mixed bag.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Evidence of the growing dominance of non-state actors. While geography-based systems of authority won't disappear any time soon, their relevance is diminishing swiftly. And with them, there's a threat to our political ideologies from Rousseau, Locke, Hobbes etc. which ultimately ground sovereignty in the individual citizen.

    Elon Musk and his peers remind me of medieval Popes/Archbishops, or of the heads of immensely strong warlike nomadic tribes. It's not that they don't have a relationship with particular geographies, but they don't seek to rule them or really displace their present rulers. They live and work in a different overlay of power and authority, which is fairly disconnected with the control of territory - and deeply rooted in the control of knowledge and expertise. And with it, with the confidence of populations in their superior expertise.

    This dynamic been growing for a while - it has been true for decades that sound accounting practice is what the Big Accounting Firms said that it was. Governments looking for legitimacy for policy initiatives try to find it through appraisals they commission from KPMG, which will be more convincing to the voting public than any Minister's statements.

    The trouble, though, is that there's a disconnection between the interests of these non-state actors, and mere folks like you and me. We have no recourse or means to impose accountability on Musk's firms, or to prompt any re-thinks when directions the firm takes prove to have unanticipated negative consequences in our particular lives. While Musk is tending to embody the Benevolent Dictator version of group-leader rather than the Genghis Khan version, there are no guarantees. History suggests that in aggregate, Lord Acton's optimism will bear out, eh?

    I think that this is part of the reason that we're seeing a resurgence of authoritarian nationalisms - the anxiety provoking their rise is as much driven by a legitimate fear about the loss of even the minimal control citizens have had in representative democracies, as about fear of "extreme left" ideas. Nobody knows how to ensure that the welfare of individuals as people (rather than as consumers or raw materials) is even considered by such organizations, when there are no lines of accountability leading back to ordinary people.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    That's a hopeful development.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    I'm hoping for the best for Tesla, but his finances are not healthy. The company is bleeding $$ at the rate of $8000us a minute.
    If he can't get the Gen3 production up and start selling cars that bright light that was the future really will be a train coming the other way. It'd be a shame, he's got a good product but he acts like a black lab in a pecan orchard full of squirrels. Can't decide which tree to bark up.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Yeah, great.

    And what do we do when Reardon decicdes he don’t want to play, anymore, and we don’t got powerful enough states to force him?

    We want more metal!

    Maybe that crazy lady was right?

    Also, are these batteries like the ones in the cars in Florida they “boosted” the capacity of? Will they be able to hold electrons captive?

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Jeez, Rob, I had no idea you are a Rand acolyte?

    Say it ain't so. :-(

    Meanwhile, Musk completes a commercial contract and people are concerned about non-state actors? WTH?
    Gerard>
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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Jeez, Rob, I had no idea you are a Rand acolyte?

    Say it ain't so. :-(

    Meanwhile, Musk completes a commercial contract and people are concerned about non-state actors? WTH?

    Note the “crazy lady”. They made me read those books in school. Still, It would be creepy if her visions came true, eh? Sure seems like we are heading in that direction.

    Please, save us from ourselves wise and powerful business guru! Only you can save us! Mostly because you orchestrated things so we depend on you, but...

    I only worry about non state actors having so much power. WalMart, for example, having profits that exceed the GDP of many countries. What happens to us all when concentrated power acts against us?

    Yikes...

    Peace,
    Robert

    The guy himself, and his visions and accomplishments are amazing. I love it all.

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    I think the contract completion is a big deal, and the result praiseworthy. It just got me considering that Musk's outfit is now more credible than most government departments responsible for such things - at least in the eyes of the public. His folks will be the obvious experts which people mention in relation to Puerto Rico. To 3rd world development, etc. More credibility, and authority/confidence than any state actor.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    I think it's wonderful -- that a private enterprise can give a government a kick in the pants by being vastly and obviously more efficient at getting things done.

    My own municipality just spent 18 months replacing a 2-lane overpass across highway 400.

    But Reynard hit the nail on the head. If nobody buys Musk's stuff, and he spends too much, he goes down.

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    I dunno. Once the firm has reached a critical mass of wealth, it might be like what they said about the hurricane in Texas. That it was big enough to generate its own weather.

    I don't know if Microsoft needs anyone to buy Microsoft products anymore. They've got the equivalent now of the natural resource wealth of a moderately large country.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Well Dayum!!! I thought the nice visionary gentleman had provided a service- under contract and for a not insubstantial amount of money- in such a way that he gets great press and the best advertising for his product that he could hope for. But he's actually the dark prince, come to steal away our sunshine and eat all our wimmins? I'm so glad I have the bilge to hush away all my fears and help me through the day. Thank you Tom F.- I loves you JayInOz

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Rob (#8), when the State abrogates it's responsibilities to it's citizens and 'contracts out' much of the building and maintaining of vital infrastructure to private 'for profit' organisations that pay appropriate 'bribes' to the political parties then this will obviously continue. The number of immediate ex politicians and State employees that appear on the boards of these corporations is an indication that there's criminality afoot.

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Rob (#8), when the State abrogates it's responsibilities to it's citizens and 'contracts out' much of the building and maintaining of vital infrastructure to private 'for profit' organisations that pay appropriate 'bribes' to the political parties then this will obviously continue. The number of immediate ex politicians and State employees that appear on the boards of these corporations is an indication that there's criminality afoot.
    Are you familiar with our prison, healthcare, and education systems?

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Evidence of the growing dominance of non-state actors. While geography-based systems of authority won't disappear any time soon, their relevance is diminishing swiftly. And with them, there's a threat to our political ideologies from Rousseau, Locke, Hobbes etc. which ultimately ground sovereignty in the individual citizen.

    Elon Musk and his peers remind me of medieval Popes/Archbishops, or of the heads of immensely strong warlike nomadic tribes. It's not that they don't have a relationship with particular geographies, but they don't seek to rule them or really displace their present rulers. They live and work in a different overlay of power and authority, which is fairly disconnected with the control of territory - and deeply rooted in the control of knowledge and expertise. And with it, with the confidence of populations in their superior expertise.

    This dynamic been growing for a while - it has been true for decades that sound accounting practice is what the Big Accounting Firms said that it was. Governments looking for legitimacy for policy initiatives try to find it through appraisals they commission from KPMG, which will be more convincing to the voting public than any Minister's statements.

    The trouble, though, is that there's a disconnection between the interests of these non-state actors, and mere folks like you and me. We have no recourse or means to impose accountability on Musk's firms, or to prompt any re-thinks when directions the firm takes prove to have unanticipated negative consequences in our particular lives. While Musk is tending to embody the Benevolent Dictator version of group-leader rather than the Genghis Khan version, there are no guarantees. History suggests that in aggregate, Lord Acton's optimism will bear out, eh?

    I think that this is part of the reason that we're seeing a resurgence of authoritarian nationalisms - the anxiety provoking their rise is as much driven by a legitimate fear about the loss of even the minimal control citizens have had in representative democracies, as about fear of "extreme left" ideas. Nobody knows how to ensure that the welfare of individuals as people (rather than as consumers or raw materials) is even considered by such organizations, when there are no lines of accountability leading back to ordinary people.
    Thats very well put, and I'm not quite there but I think very well thought too. Certainly it was odd the way the whole thing played out here. (I live where this thing was built) There was a big weather storm, several failures in the grid, and the whole thing shut down like a big safety switch on a house. But it's a big grid, takes more than just finding a torch and flicking the switch back on to get the power going again.

    A political debate ensued between our coal loving federal government, and our green state government, about the cause of the failure. Meanwhile some dude dared Musk to make this bet with the state government that he could install a battery within one hundred days or it's free. Our state government jumped on it quicker than you could order a ham sandwich. No analysis, no real thinking about whether it would solve our power crisis, if we have one, nounderstanding about how it might fit into our future energy policy, which is a complicated evolving mess. Just Bang! yer on Fella. Quite an extraordinary manipulation of significant public policy by a private, foreign player.

    I think the battery can power 20,000 houses for one hour. Is it good value? Will it deliver grid stability? Will it really integrate into our grid system at all? Who the heck knows? I think in terms of technology it's a great step in the right direction, but at this stage I'd class it as a bold experiment rather than a solution.

    Anyway, well done Tom, an impressive piece.

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Okay, everyone knows I’m simple, and foolish, right?

    Still. There are two futures for energy, I think.

    One is fusion. Once we figure out how to do it, it will be helpful in many ways.

    The interim solution, though, is locally generated electricity. The huge grids of power being wasted racing around releasing heat and emf into the air need to go.
    Especially now that alternative sources of generation are available to individuals to supplement whatever is supplied by any main “grid”.
    Puerto Rico is a good example, and place to start. The rickety grid went down and everyone suffers. Many smaller systems would be as easy to install and implement now as another big “grid”, and could help preclude the same level of failure in the future.

    The power companies do not want to lose those monopolies on the plugs/sockets/switches...

    I think.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Yes, except that small local generation doesn't really work well for heavy industry. For domestic use, you can feasibly go off grid, and it's getting more and more economically feasible. But not for big power users. Unless you think huge individual diesel powered generators are going to be a good idea.

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post


    I think the battery can power 20,000 houses for one hour. Is it good value? Will it deliver grid stability?
    Will it really integrate into our grid system at all? Who the heck knows? I think in terms of technology it's a great step in the right direction, but at this stage I'd class it as a bold experiment rather than a solution.

    Anyway, well done Tom, an impressive piece.
    A slower to build but perhaps better long term back strategy (if it needed to to situated in SA) was pumped hydro using the hills as head.
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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Yes, except that small local generation doesn't really work well for heavy industry. For domestic use, you can feasibly go off grid, and it's getting more and more economically feasible. But not for big power users. Unless you think huge individual diesel powered generators are going to be a good idea.
    I see your point, but can offer a competing idea. Green Mountain Coffee Roasters here in VT entered into a deal with their power company to power their plant (we're talking a lot of very big ovens + lots of machinery) with natural gas fired engines. They did this mostly because the power going down during the roast of a single batch could cost them 6 figures - so reliability was a huge piece. Anyway, they are 1) saving money, 2) gained a ton of reliability, & 3) are feeding power back into the grid as needed when they aren't using it. Both GMCR & the power company have called it a win-win.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Yes, except that small local generation doesn't really work well for heavy industry. For domestic use, you can feasibly go off grid, and it's getting more and more economically feasible. But not for big power users. Unless you think huge individual diesel powered generators are going to be a good idea.
    A former school chum of mine was working on a fully stand alone system using solar to power steam driven turbines. Reckoned one of these "units" would easily supply power to any western town here. Haven't seen him in a couple of years so don't know how far he got- probably still waiting on more funding I'd imagine JayInOz

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Quote Originally Posted by JayInOz View Post
    A former school chum of mine was working on a fully stand alone system using solar to power steam driven turbines. Reckoned one of these "units" would easily supply power to any western town here. Haven't seen him in a couple of years so don't know how far he got- probably still waiting on more funding I'd imagine JayInOz
    Not so good on cloudy days or at night.

    Dont get me wrong, I think we need to get out of fossil fuels as fast as we can. And I think off grid, and mini grids, if that's the right word for small, local energy trading and sharing, are going to be a big part of the mix. Peter is right, pumped hydro storage makes way more sense in a whole lot ways than a huge lithium ion battery bank. Musk made a very clever move to take advantage of a a very brief moment in time where his solution was attractive to a desperate government copping flack from every direction.

    We have some smallish power plants here feeding power into the grid, generated by methane from the town Rubbish dump. I think the next 10 years will see huge developments in renewable power. Really, really stupid time to be building new coal fired power stations, or starting up the worlds largest, foreign owned, taxpayer funded coal mine. Our governments have no coherent energy policy and as Tom says, have almost made themselves irrelevant.

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Yes, except that small local generation doesn't really work well for heavy industry. For domestic use, you can feasibly go off grid, and it's getting more and more economically feasible. But not for big power users. Unless you think huge individual diesel powered generators are going to be a good idea.
    Not individually generated. Locally generated, individuallly supplemented.
    For large users it makes far more sense to generate nearby than to pollute somewhere else and waste energy sending it over miles and miles of wires.
    And, a series of smaller, localized energy networks that COULD be interconnected is better than a monolithic grid, as far as avoiding catastrophic failure system wide, I would imagine.
    Plus, the idea of using what is available locally can lead to alternative sources for power generation. Perhaps waste can be fermented and used to power an ethanol plant, say?

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Not individually generated. Locally generated, individuallly supplemented.
    For large users it makes far more sense to generate nearby than to pollute somewhere else and waste energy sending it over miles and miles of wires.
    And, a series of smaller, localized energy networks that COULD be interconnected is better than a monolithic grid, as far as avoiding catastrophic failure system wide, I would imagine.
    Plus, the idea of using what is available locally can lead to alternative sources for power generation. Perhaps waste can be fermented and used to power an ethanol plant, say?

    Peace,
    Robert
    The average loss for power we get here from outside Vermont is 30%. Yep - almost 1/3 of the power we buy disappears.

    Distributed generation makes sense in many, many ways.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Does any municipality anywhere use methane generated from the city's sewerage to generate electricity ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    I should Google first !
    https://www.newscientist.com/article...sewage-energy/
    A city in Denmark is about to become the first in the world to provide most of its citizens with fresh water using only the energy created from household wastewater and sewage.
    The Marselisborg Wastewater Treatment Plant in Aarhus has undergone improvements that mean it can now generate more than 150 per cent of the electricity needed to run the plant, which means the surplus can be used to pump drinking water around the city.
    As well as regularly powering the entire water system of 200,000 people living in the inner city area, any excess electricity could be sold into the local grid.


    “We are about to be the first energy neutral catchment area,” says Mads Warming of Danfoss Power Electronics, which provides the technology for Aarhus Water, the municipal water utility.
    The plant generates energy from the biogas it creates out of household wastewater, including sewage. Carbon is extracted from the wastewater and pumped into digesters kept at 38°C filled with bacteria. These produce biogas – mostly methane – that is then burned to make heat and electricity.

    and .... https://www.citylab.com/life/2015/11...-power/416007/
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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Does any municipality anywhere use methane generated from the city's sewerage to generate electricity ?
    We have landfills running generators + quite a few farms that are digesting com manure.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Evidence of the growing dominance of non-state actors. While geography-based systems of authority won't disappear any time soon, their relevance is diminishing swiftly. And with them, there's a threat to our political ideologies from Rousseau, Locke, Hobbes etc. which ultimately ground sovereignty in the individual citizen.

    Elon Musk and his peers remind me of medieval Popes/Archbishops, or of the heads of immensely strong warlike nomadic tribes. It's not that they don't have a relationship with particular geographies, but they don't seek to rule them or really displace their present rulers. They live and work in a different overlay of power and authority, which is fairly disconnected with the control of territory - and deeply rooted in the control of knowledge and expertise. And with it, with the confidence of populations in their superior expertise.

    This dynamic been growing for a while - it has been true for decades that sound accounting practice is what the Big Accounting Firms said that it was. Governments looking for legitimacy for policy initiatives try to find it through appraisals they commission from KPMG, which will be more convincing to the voting public than any Minister's statements.

    The trouble, though, is that there's a disconnection between the interests of these non-state actors, and mere folks like you and me. We have no recourse or means to impose accountability on Musk's firms, or to prompt any re-thinks when directions the firm takes prove to have unanticipated negative consequences in our particular lives. While Musk is tending to embody the Benevolent Dictator version of group-leader rather than the Genghis Khan version, there are no guarantees. History suggests that in aggregate, Lord Acton's optimism will bear out, eh?

    I think that this is part of the reason that we're seeing a resurgence of authoritarian nationalisms - the anxiety provoking their rise is as much driven by a legitimate fear about the loss of even the minimal control citizens have had in representative democracies, as about fear of "extreme left" ideas. Nobody knows how to ensure that the welfare of individuals as people (rather than as consumers or raw materials) is even considered by such organizations, when there are no lines of accountability leading back to ordinary people.
    Nah, it's just a company under contract to provide a service and performing very well. Yarrow used to get contracts like this in the 19th century. The Royal Navy wanted to penalize him if his vessels didn't make contract speed, so he negotiated bonuses if he exceeded them. Then, he regularly exceeded contract speed, partly by conducting the tests in shallow water, where they were helped by the same forces that made flyboats possible.

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    [QUOTE=Phil Y;5405087]Not so good on cloudy days or at night.
    QUOTE]
    That's where the good Mr. Musk comes in with his storage systems A former boss of mine was in charge of worlds best practice with BP Solar. We had a large array of solar panels on the vineyard he owned and where I worked- all of BPs panel types plus those of all the competition. Data was collected from the entire array every ten minutes and downloaded to head office every night. My boss reckoned that the efficiency of their newest panels was incredible, but battery development was lagging way behind.
    Almost every house built in our little town now has solar panels on the roof, and a great many have Tesla batteries. Most however are getting solar purely to put back into the grid to offset the disgustingly high cost of power here. One extreme example is the nursing home where my wife works. There is a massive solar array on the roof, but almost no storage. We had a major power failure a few months ago, mid afternoon. The nursing home had downlights for a few hours but by dark they were gone. So the staff used torches which soon died. All the doors automatically opened, so dementure patients were free to "escape". Some of them were terrified in the total darkness. No hot water, no laundry, no cooking, no security. For twenty hours. But they saved a fortune on battery storage JayInOz

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    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    A friend built this tracking PV unit, it's very efficient .It even returns to point East as night comes on.

    Ni'c panels.jpgNic's solar 2.jpg
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    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
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    13,916

    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    I know of a couple of sun tracking domestic installations nearby. I wonder if it's worth it now that panels are so cheap, but maybe it is. It's all exciting stuff, I'm sure the solution, which will be a whole big mix of technologies, is just around the corner. And yes, decentralised. Big power is going the way of the dinosaurs.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern NSW Australia
    Posts
    69,309

    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Tracking isn't worth it if you have a BIG roof but said friend lives in a tiny 120 year old cottage with a complicated set of small area roofs. The array was better for him.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    2,937

    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Does any municipality anywhere use methane generated from the city's sewerage to generate electricity ?
    Yes! The Christchurch sewage treatment plant is entirely self powered this way, and the surplus is exported on the grid.

    Pete
    Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers!

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    48,164

    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Does any municipality in other than rural permit such a tracking array to be built in an urban area?

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Barrie, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    4,578

    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    I think a very viable solution is "the nuclear battery".

    We've got to get "The China Syndrome", and Chernobyl, out of our heads. Nuclear is NOT a dead-end.

    There is a small nuclear pile which can be built so that it get's less efficient as it heats up, and more efficient as it cools down. So it's self regulating. And can't run-away -- can't meltdown. Also, it can't be used to breed weapons-grade material.

    It's promoted by a friend of mine, here: https://www.dunedinenergy.ca/ He's never made a dime off it, but he's passionate about it, and lectures all over the world.

    These things are about the size of a 2-bedroom house. You mostly bury it into the ground, hook it up to a small steam-turbine, then forget it FOR 20 YEARS! It's self-regulating. It doesn't need any large staff. Just a watchman. And 20 years from now we'll probably have a use for the spent nuclear metal.

    They don't turn out a lot of power -- just enough for a small town. Which to my mind is perfect.

    If I could have significantly cheaper electrical rates I'd be happy to have one in my backyard.

    Dave

  35. #35
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bournemouth UK
    Posts
    1,096

    Default Re: Elon Musk wins bet, finishing massive battery installation in 100 days

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Not individually generated. Locally generated, individuallly supplemented.
    For large users it makes far more sense to generate nearby than to pollute somewhere else and waste energy sending it over miles and miles of wires.
    And, a series of smaller, localized energy networks that COULD be interconnected is better than a monolithic grid, as far as avoiding catastrophic failure system wide, I would imagine.
    Plus, the idea of using what is available locally can lead to alternative sources for power generation. Perhaps waste can be fermented and used to power an ethanol plant, say?

    Peace,
    Robert
    In the UK there are three separate but interconnected grids, the 400kV, 275kV Supergrid and the more localised 132kV Grids. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...Great_Britain)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Does any municipality anywhere use methane generated from the city's sewerage to generate electricity ?
    Virtually all UK sewage plants now generate their own electricity once the privatised operators of realised they could save a fortune on electricity bills.

    About 7 years ago there was a proposal to build a plant which would take all non food, non recylcable domestic waste, process it by anaerobic digestion and use the resulting syngas to power generators. It never progressed beyond a design study due to lack of funding even though it would have saved local councils a small fortune in landfill charges. From gov.uk:-
    What to pay

    The tax is charged by weight. There are 2 rates. You pay the lower rate on ‘inactive waste’ - for example rocks or soil.
    Rate Amount you pay
    Lower rate £2.65 per tonne
    Standard rate £84.40 per tonne

    Last year in Bournemouth we recycled about 47% of household waste but that still left some 12,000 tonnes to be landfilled!

    Nick

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