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Thread: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

  1. #36
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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Foils do not necessarily have to comprise of a material with an sg that precludes everything but carbon composites, although being intended for AC competition, it will no doubt turn out to go that way.
    What do you reckon they can be made from? A very experienced high-performance boatbuilder I know gave up trying to home-build Moth foils even in carbon as the issues are so big.

    The foiling kit for the Laser is made of alloy, but such foils are a long, long way from being competitive. Junction drag is already critical, I believe, so efficient foils have to be extraordinarily light and strong.

    Obviously SS is one option, but it's still not going to be a cheap option that can be used in other craft will it?

    It's interesting to see that the only thing remotely like a small version of these, the Quant 23, seems to be putting up very few (EDIT) really good results as far as I can find.
    Last edited by Chris249; 11-24-2017 at 05:50 PM.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    If you are looking for stiffness, strength and heavy weight ( for ballast reasons), steel would be a good candidate, given the ability to CNC machine complex shapes with modern technology.
    I assume you would initially weld the foil to the strut before machining.

    But no one actually knows what would be optimum. We only have a one line statement that the foils would be used for ballast.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Not many good sailing jobs on this thing.
    I would not want to work anywhere forward of those foils
    I wonder what percentage of the crew will just be there to provide hydraulic pressure, it is going to need to be a lot lifting the ballast up in the air.

    I presume the will also need to control the angle of incident of the foil, a quite complex mechanism will be required which would have to be very reliable

    Bernard Smith (40knot sailboat) would be loving this.

    All good fun and promoting Engineering so looking forward to seeing other concepts, I am sure this is only a starting point / publicity tool and reality will be a whole stage further on.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    If you were fishing out of a 14 ft clinker dory for a living back in the late 1800s, a "J Boat" might as well have been a "spaceship". The A C has always been "out there" in terms of pushing the limits of design and engineering, its no different today.

    John Welsford
    X2....part of the idea of the America's Cup has been to be a platform promoting development at the highest level. Can I relate to foiling multis? Nope, but I have a Cunningham luff tackle on all of my boats which came out of AC racing.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Not many good sailing jobs on this thing.

    And soon someone will add a computer to aid the helm. A self driving sailboat will follow. Such fun.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Reveling in the familiar past is a popular pastime and I mean no disrespect, I enjoy it myself.

    But . . .
    Lets celebrate the innovators and their innovations and,
    lets be spurred on to apply these new ideas as new products,
    that will make things better and become " the new normal ".

    Think Different


    Also check out Jim Brown's podcast and some of the exciting new nautical ideas he is reporting on as well as preserving much sailing history with his interviews.
    He is doing some important work. He has a patron account and could use some support for his work.
    http://outrigmedia.com/outrig/podcasts/
    This is the first lesson ye should learn: There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.
    E. Cayce

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    X2....part of the idea of the America's Cup has been to be a platform promoting development at the highest level. Can I relate to foiling multis? Nope, but I have a Cunningham luff tackle on all of my boats which came out of AC racing.
    So the last useful trickle down was 1958. Kicker (vang), trapeze, alloy masts, planing hulls, asymmetrics, the use of carbon fibre, wing masts, water ballast, modern sail materials, fully battened sails.... I could go on all came from other areas of sailing - mainly dinghy sailing. True sailing innovation comes from little guys in garages making incremental and occasional monumental improvements to open designs.

    The Americans cup is brilliant, the holly grail but isn’t going to change sailing in any significant way. I was talking to a young man the other day, he knew all about the Americans cup, said he loved the idea of sailing but made no connection to sailing and the fact that he could ever go sailing.

    Just thinking out loud

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    What do you reckon they can be made from? A very experienced high-performance boatbuilder I know gave up trying to home-build Moth foils even in carbon as the issues are so big.

    The foiling kit for the Laser is made of alloy, but such foils are a long, long way from being competitive. Junction drag is already critical, I believe, so efficient foils have to be extraordinarily light and strong.

    Obviously SS is one option, but it's still not going to be a cheap option that can be used in other craft will it?

    It's interesting to see that the only thing remotely like a small version of these, the Quant 23, seems to be putting up very good really good results as far as I can find.

    Without claiming to have all the answers or suggesting that costs can be kept down….not by any stretch of the imagination, I can only say that extruded foils may keep things in check along with economy of scales.

    Extruded carbon composite will obviously be lighter than alloy. But allowing for swinging joints, rather than curved daggers sliding in cases, makes the metal components more practical for custom fabrication-- very much still part of the development process at this stage in evolution of the craft type.

    A drawn pic will explain what I envisage better than words (and since I have a pic in my minds eye, a little help from forum members would help in showing it).
    In the meantime, while I go through the drawing and pic posting process, a stab at using words will have to do.

    Here goes -- Instead of sticking within the restraints of a dagger foil arrangement, an athwartships cross member or beam could possibly be used to carry the foils outboard, and at the same time spread the shroud base.
    Faired and articulated elbow-like nodes drop the foil extrusions down to the required or allowable depth, and carry active winglets at the extremities.
    Likewise, the rudder foil has active, horizontally disposed winglets rather than a fixed T foil with limited control by rake alone.

    Imagine something along the lines of the French craft Hydropterre, but without the floats and having less beam span.
    The lee foil is vertical and the winglets horizontal, when sailing.
    Otherwise, the foils can swing back and up, although, the winglets can always be horizontally oriented, whether lifting on the lee side, or riding along as ballast on the w/ard side.

    Sure, there will be hydraulics required to activate the foils, although, since the foils do lift themselves, under way, there is the possibility that the energy from the lee foil could be transferred to help the w/ward one.

    Weight to w/ward is essentially where the power comes from, and crew can move to the windward rail and hike-out on wings, in recumbent mode, using legs extended inboard to be pumping dynamos generating battery current, to drive the hydraulics by means of small and efficient electric motors.

    Non-sailing or off-watch crew will then be paying their way as active ballast in a more functional way than sitting with legs hanging over the side.

    Hiked-out and working up a sweat on the wings, they do at least get to be cooled down by spray or a dunking.

    Sailing work happens on the central working deck aft of the mast, and on the foredeck.

    Quickly folded-away dynamo pedals need to be invented/designed, and then there should be no more snags to control lines, than is the case on the average sailboat deck.
    Grinders could even fit in where possible.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by George Ray View Post
    Reveling in the familiar past is a popular pastime and I mean no disrespect, I enjoy it myself.

    But . . .
    Lets celebrate the innovators and their innovations and,
    lets be spurred on to apply these new ideas as new products,
    that will make things better and become " the new normal ".

    Think Different


    Also check out Jim Brown's podcast and some of the exciting new nautical ideas he is reporting on as well as preserving much sailing history with his interviews.
    He is doing some important work. He has a patron account and could use some support for his work.
    http://outrigmedia.com/outrig/podcasts/
    But (as the list Tink posted shows) most of the "new normal" comes from small boats at much less expense, and very little comes from the AC. I don't think a single thing has really come from the America's Cup and become a new normal. (EDIT - perhaps the cunningham eye, as already noted by others).

    You can flip around the "new idea" concept. These days the conventional thought is that the AC drives development we use. That's conventional wisdom, but IMHO wrong. The "new idea" is that the AC does NOT drive the development we use. It used to be good at incremental development of big boat gear, but that's apparently in the past.

    You can easily yearn for radical change in the sport and still not like the current AC, as I do. The change I yearn for is for a very different attitude in thinking about the sport and what makes it popular, and this new boat represents more of the same old "faster is better" thinking that has been dominating the sport for 25 years, a period in which its popularity has nosedived and sports that follow the mantra "simpler is better" have exploded.
    Last edited by Chris249; 11-24-2017 at 05:49 PM.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Without claiming to have all the answers or suggesting that costs can be kept down….not by any stretch of the imagination, I can only say that extruded foils may keep things in check along with economy of scales.

    Extruded carbon composite will obviously be lighter than alloy. But allowing for swinging joints, rather than curved daggers sliding in cases, makes the metal components more practical for custom fabrication-- very much still part of the development process at this stage in evolution of the craft type.

    A drawn pic will explain what I envisage better than words (and since I have a pic in my minds eye, a little help from forum members would help in showing it).
    In the meantime, while I go through the drawing and pic posting process, a stab at using words will have to do.

    Here goes -- Instead of sticking within the restraints of a dagger foil arrangement, an athwartships cross member or beam could possibly be used to carry the foils outboard, and at the same time spread the shroud base.
    Faired and articulated elbow-like nodes drop the foil extrusions down to the required or allowable depth, and carry active winglets at the extremities.
    Likewise, the rudder foil has active, horizontally disposed winglets rather than a fixed T foil with limited control by rake alone.

    Imagine something along the lines of the French craft Hydropterre, but without the floats and having less beam span.
    The lee foil is vertical and the winglets horizontal, when sailing.
    Otherwise, the foils can swing back and up, although, the winglets can always be horizontally oriented, whether lifting on the lee side, or riding along as ballast on the w/ard side.

    Sure, there will be hydraulics required to activate the foils, although, since the foils do lift themselves, under way, there is the possibility that the energy from the lee foil could be transferred to help the w/ward one.

    Weight to w/ward is essentially where the power comes from, and crew can move to the windward rail and hike-out on wings, in recumbent mode, using legs extended inboard to be pumping dynamos generating battery current, to drive the hydraulics by means of small and efficient electric motors.

    Non-sailing or off-watch crew will then be paying their way as active ballast in a more functional way than sitting with legs hanging over the side.

    Hiked-out and working up a sweat on the wings, they do at least get to be cooled down by spray or a dunking.

    Sailing work happens on the central working deck aft of the mast, and on the foredeck.

    Quickly folded-away dynamo pedals need to be invented/designed, and then there should be no more snags to control lines, than is the case on the average sailboat deck.
    Grinders could even fit in where possible.
    Yes, that's possible. My issue is that in popular participant sports the top events are run under rules that ensure that the legends use the same gear that weekend warriors can practically use. I'm just concerned that competitive versions of these highly loaded foils are not going to be practical (ie affordable and durable) in any material.

    The concept also worries me in that respect. In a boat of great beam that relies on foils and complicated powered control for stability, a breakdown or loss of speed (as is inevitable in real world sailing with weekend warriors trying to get around the upper reaches of Sydney Harbour, through a Long Island Sound calm followed by a thunderstorm, short tacking up the Solent or when something breaks 1000 miles out to sea at night in 35 knots) is going to be more disastrous than in any other previous boat. And basically, the whole concept is just because they don't want the more practical multihull and because they think pure speed is important.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Liking the AC or not,how does the popularity of the sport increase one's enjoyment of it?We all derive enjoyment in our individual ways and it is hard to see what difference it makes to that level of enjoyment if more people are participating.As a spectator of other sports,I appreciate the opportunity to watch supremely talented performers demonstrating their abilities in their fields and I find that they are best able to do this at the most demanding level,not with equipment that is ordinary.So I would rather watch Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel rather than a national series with competitors in showroom saloons (sedans to the colonials).The financial aspects of the relative series would appear to indicate that I am not alone in this preference.The current spectrum of competitive sailing includes such a broad range of activities that we should all be able to find a satisfying niche.What we should not expect is that we might become global celebrities as a result of having fun.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Well, some of us find that it's nice to have someone to sail with. Keeping the number of sailors up can also be vital if you want to have shops to buy gear at; manufacturers to build gear to sell in those shops; slipways to work on your boat at; jetties to pull into; bays that are not all turned into no-anchor zones; and numbers that can stop excessive regulations being enacted. On a purely personal level, there can also be a buzz and excitement from having some big events. It can be a very positive feeling.

    We're about to move to an inland area with very few sailors. We won't be able to buy any gear without a four+ hour drive; we have no political clout to get rid of some restrictions on access to the main waterway. We can't enjoy all the diversity of the competitive side of the sport, or really good competition. Statistically, it's less likely to find a kindred spirit to enjoy the sport with when there are fewer people doing it; fewer people to bounce ideas off and to socialise with. That's fine, we're moving there for other reasons, but it does give an insight into what happens when numbers get very low.

    It's great if you happen to like F1, as many people do. However, F1 is very restricted so arguably not like the modern AC boats. Secondly, apparently the spectator numbers are also dwindling. Thirdly, motor racing is only about 35th most popular participant sport in major sailing countries and suffers from major restrictions, so given the massive amounts of money in the auto industry and the number of cars and drivers, it's apparent that the motor racing route can be bad for a sport. Ironically the head of the British association says that F1 is actually problematic for the sport, something echoed by other industry insiders.

    Finally, your preference is certainly not universal. Enormous numbers of people watch supremely talented cyclists racing the Tour on gear that is slower than the stuff you can buy in a local shop, and 50% of the speed of the fastest custom gear. Even in the equipment-intensive Olympic racing sports, more people watch the events that are "less demanding" in many ways; for example more people watch road cycling than MTBing; more people watch flat water kayaking than whitewater kayaking; more people watch rowing than skiff and catamaran sailing.


    PS - Some of us have done enough high-profile races or events to know that we do not want to become celebrities, so that's certainly not a driving force for everyone.
    Last edited by Chris249; 11-24-2017 at 05:36 PM.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    X2....part of the idea of the America's Cup has been to be a platform promoting development at the highest level. Can I relate to foiling multis? Nope, but I have a Cunningham luff tackle on all of my boats which came out of AC racing.
    No, it hasn't. Hulls have been well behind small boat development for most of its history, and rigs as well.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    What do you reckon they can be made from? A very experienced high-performance boatbuilder I know gave up trying to home-build Moth foils even in carbon as the issues are so big.

    The foiling kit for the Laser is made of alloy, but such foils are a long, long way from being competitive. Junction drag is already critical, I believe, so efficient foils have to be extraordinarily light and strong.

    Obviously SS is one option, but it's still not going to be a cheap option that can be used in other craft will it?

    It's interesting to see that the only thing remotely like a small version of these, the Quant 23, seems to be putting up very good really good results as far as I can find.
    The Quant relies on a trapeze for stability, which is a very different concept.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    The Quant relies on a trapeze for stability, which is a very different concept.
    Yes good point, in terms of scale and simplicity they are very different concepts. I was referring to the similarity between the ideas of weight to windward and a foil to leeward, which they share.

    PS- I made a complete boo boo on my reference to the Quant 23 - I meant to say it was putting up very FEW very good results as far as I can see from searching the Swiss results. Ooops.

    Q23.png

    1511207935088.jpg

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Yes good point, in terms of scale and simplicity they are very different concepts. I was referring to the similarity between the ideas of weight to windward and a foil to leeward, which they share.

    PS- I made a complete boo boo on my reference to the Quant 23 - I meant to say it was putting up very FEW very good results as far as I can see from searching the Swiss results. Ooops.

    Q23.png

    1511207935088.jpg
    Well that does make a difference! I wondered how it would get to windward.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    I think it's pretty sad that there's this massive effort to go back to monohulls to try and appease the 'mainstream sailor', as this iteration of a monohull could not be further from any mainstream monohull design, and has been mentioned by others, is not going to be relatable to the average sailor.
    What we do need to get a grasp on, is that we (sailors) are not the intended target market - or they would have very little return on investment, since we are a minority. The target market of any sport is to attract sponsors to pay for the show, and to make the show exciting enough to watch that it attracts spectators from all walks of life, not only from participants in the sport. The Volvo Ocean Race has just docked in Cape Town, and have put on a massive effort to attract spectators and engage the public - I would imagine that of the number of spectators and members of the public that pass through the 'event village' only 3% will have actually ever sailed.
    The AC50 cats proved a lot of the critics wrong. The platforms are ideal for foiling configurations, and have pretty much proven themselves to be at the leading edge of design development. There is no other design at present that can claim to be doing 40knots boatspeed in 15knots of wind. Fair enough, they don't like lumpy water, so Auckland is not suited to these boats and IF they host it in Auckland, another more open-sea design should be found. (Someone mentioned the AC50 cats are fragile - TNZ were back on the water 2 days after their massive pitchpole, and only had to repair fairings and ribs in the wing, so I can't agree with them.)
    I'm not against a monohull at all, just think that they are trying really hard to sell a monohull that will be as fast and exciting as the AC50 boats, and I don't believe they are going down the right path. Frankly I don't believe their claims are vaguely achievable, and I'd rather see a fleet of Wally Cento's contesting the Cup, than these weird contraptions that don't relate to any monohull designs available.
    The idea of 'trickle-down' ideas from the Cup is also not real. The foiling cats with wingsails were quite well developed in the C-class catamarans well before the AC circus borrowed the idea. Thanks to the exposure this gained in the last 2 Cup cycles, foiling catamarans are becoming a lot more 'mainstream' - I can find at least 5 production manufaturers offering foiling boats, either as retrofits or as new designs. While wings might not take off as easily as foiling has, they are at the sharp end of rig development, any soft sail variant is going to be a compromise, and has already been developed (the Mini-Transat boat Arkema, among others)- perhaps after this Cup we will see the adoption of this idea on other boats, but I doubt it. (Except for Wharram Tiki's - they've had this idea for a while too.)
    As someone has mentioned, the positioning of the windward foil is going to prevent any safe 'match-racing' tactics, for fear of a sailor on the other boat having his head removed. I really think this concept is a case of the designers trying too hard to achieve the impossible, that is trying to make a monohull appear as fast and exciting to watch as the multi's are.
    While the first Volvo boat arrived in Cape Town, Francois Gabart on the trimaran Macif rounded Cape Leeuwin. They both took 19 days and a few hours, but the trimaran was ahead by one Ocean-length ! So the multi vs. monohull debate is dead, we all know which is faster.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    In a match race it doesn't matter how fast a boat goes. All that matters is getting there before the other boat. That's the aspect of AC that I find interesting.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    In a match race it doesn't matter how fast a boat goes. All that matters is getting there before the other boat. That's the aspect of AC that I find interesting.

    Jeff
    Fully agree, proper tacking duels etc etc.
    For people with different views, yes I have a calendar, it is electronic, I know it is 2017 but with all the ‘progress’ we are loosing a key element of the pinnacle of sail racing.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    TBH the structure that the foil is attached to looks fairly irrelevant cat/mono, who cares, the foil positions are similar though. The mono just "looks" more "normal" from a distance/bystander point.
    As for sailrocket, I was at college with studying (sort of) naval architecture and one of the other students came up with a very very similar design (wonder if he was anything to do with sailrocket)

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by sailnstink View Post
    The AC multihull haters are still going to hate this thing. I think it shivs some sailors egos that the AC boats don't look like their sailboat, not even close enough to pretend. Reality is AC boats are never going to look the same as the peoples boats.
    I watch Formula One to see cutting edge technology cars compete. I expect the same of AC. If it wasn't it'd be called Nassail.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    The concept behind Sailrocket is credited to Bernard Smith, who proposed the concept about 50 years ago. Quoted from this good read on Sailrocket in Wired magazine.

    The basic design he kept returning to was one proposed 50 years ago by an American rocket engineer named Bernard Smith. It never caught on, and Smith died in relative obscurity. But Larsen stumbled across Smith’s book in the back of a dusty yacht chandlery just after high school. Discovering it, he says, was like “getting a book on jet engine flight from 1917.” Smith posed a question few had ever thought to ask: “Most sailors think of a sailboat as something that reaches up to grab a bit of air,” Larsen says, echoing Smith. “But why not build it like a plane that reaches down and grabs the water?”
    -Dave

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    On another point, monohulls with sophisticated foils are the new multihulls. Yep, multis are passe, besides the point, old school boats, yer papa's idea of cool.

    The only reason monos grew floats or amas was to replace all that lead the monos carried with some lightweight buoyancy to leeward. The amas just aren't needed anymore -- a very lightweight, low-drag (in wind and water) foil can do the same job. This is an advancement, not a return to the lead-mine past. We're at the front edge of development: using foils to keep a boat upright will get more sophisticated, more workable as time goes on. These boats can't be compared to the last batch of AC monos.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    The concept behind Sailrocket is credited to Bernard Smith, who proposed the concept about 50 years ago. Quoted from this good read on Sailrocket in Wired magazine.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Fully agree, proper tacking duels etc etc.
    For people with different views, yes I have a calendar, it is electronic, I know it is 2017 but with all the ‘progress’ we are loosing a key element of the pinnacle of sail racing.
    Was the AC ever the pinnacle of sailing?It was certainly an event that allowed wealthy individuals to throw money at a sailing event.If you delve into the history of yachting,the matches originated when individuals competed in a match to determine who had the fastest boat.The tacking duels and dependence on exploiting rules to avoid collisions that were dominant in the twentieth century were an evolution that became necessary when the boats had gravitated to very similar parameters with tiny speed differences.A truly faster boat simply used to get ahead and stay there.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    This is not a sailboat. It is a sailing creature, conceived by the incestuous coupling of slimy horrors that crawled out of the muck during the dark of the moon.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    I can't remember where I read it, Uffa perhaps, but the big class (23 M) were generally regarded as flat out, top speed , 16 knots. IIRC , Satanita was timed doing that sustained on a reach. These were giant boats of their day, relying on waterline.
    That was 100 years ago give or take . These days a sport boat will do that beer can racing and owned by a plumber or doctor or electrician. Or boatbuilder , businessman.
    Speed has always been a determining factor in impressing us as a species, on friday night sailing out for the weekend the local Orma 60 tri plus its competitor came the other way in about 12 knots of breeze . "Holy s":<, look at that go " was my comment.
    Being overtaken last season by one of the AC foilers was a total blast , totally impressive.
    Compare that to a 12 M when we're talking the leading edge of big boat competition? They've had their day.
    This will actually be exciting.

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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by ahp View Post
    This is not a sailboat. It is a sailing creature, conceived by the incestuous coupling of slimy horrors that crawled out of the muck during the dark of the moon.
    Fantastic!

  30. #65
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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    The concept behind Sailrocket is credited to Bernard Smith, who proposed the concept about 50 years ago. Quoted from this good read on Sailrocket in Wired magazine.
    We all of us when designing, stand on the shoulders of those who went before us.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    , stand on the shoulders of those who went before us.

    John Welsford
    Kinda like 12 and 18 foot skiff skippers after going down the mine.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    You know this thread has more responses than most in the recent past.
    If nothing else, there is a lot of interest pro and con in the subject.

    The best thing is the shakeup in the latest line of thinking. There will be more opportunities for some creative solutions - to something.

    So far we have a simplistic, sketch of a concept. What happens when drawings get started and then the boats have to show they work? More opportunity.
    The only thing wrong is we don't get to watch over the shoulder of the designers and sailors.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    I don't believe they would go public with just a concept , there will have been testing on a smaller trial horse already. Where though......

    Back in the hula days they had a couple of tank test cold moulded hulls to trial out a radical keel/ rudder combination, They sailed them within 20 miles of Auckland and that never emerged. That whole story has never been written about to my knowledge. I've seen the boats, one standard and one crazy.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    You know this thread has more responses than most in the recent past.
    If nothing else, there is a lot of interest pro and con in the subject.

    The best thing is the shakeup in the latest line of thinking. There will be more opportunities for some creative solutions - to something.

    So far we have a simplistic, sketch of a concept. What happens when drawings get started and then the boats have to show they work? More opportunity.
    The only thing wrong is we don't get to watch over the shoulder of the designers and sailors.
    All this shaking up takes time though. Part of the idea I thought was to reduce costs and with such a major design change, blank piece of paper, there are a lot of top dollar man hours required.
    A more conservative design would allow shorter times between the cups, be cheaper and get more teams involved.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: America's Cup foiling monohull concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    On another point, monohulls with sophisticated foils are the new multihulls. Yep, multis are passe, besides the point, old school boats, yer papa's idea of cool.

    The only reason monos grew floats or amas was to replace all that lead the monos carried with some lightweight buoyancy to leeward. The amas just aren't needed anymore -- a very lightweight, low-drag (in wind and water) foil can do the same job. This is an advancement, not a return to the lead-mine past. We're at the front edge of development: using foils to keep a boat upright will get more sophisticated, more workable as time goes on. These boats can't be compared to the last batch of AC monos.
    Yep, I’m certainly with you on this.
    Multis have been the lowtech/lowbudget way of going fast in displacement mode.

    Then with foiling and these flimsy winged things that cannot be reefed, it changed the game.

    It’s only the poor buggers like myself who need to stay down on the water and keep costs down, while being happy to live with the limitation of keeping near hull speed, that need the extra hulls.

    The snotty rich could well be able to have all the luxuries they care to have aboard including wood lined or furnished interiors) and a large crew that can manage a huge and manificent spread of sail, which can be reefed to manage winds in excess of 24 knts, without the problem of an emminent pitch pole and the need to spend days gluing all the pieces together again.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 11-29-2017 at 05:11 PM.

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