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Thread: Well Done, Australia!

  1. #1
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    Default Well Done, Australia!

    From the official website, link here. Now it's up to Parliament, but one hopes they'll respect the will of the people. Congratulations; a victory for kindness and decency! NYT article here.

    “The Australian people have spoken, and they have voted overwhelmingly ‘yes’ for marriage equality,” said Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, who had called the national survey as a way to put pressure on conservative lawmakers, many from his own party. “They voted ‘yes’ for fairness, they voted ‘yes’ for commitment, they voted ‘yes’ for love.”
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Yep. A very good result.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Just one more thing to keep the Christian Knickers Knotted.
    "... the door was ajar, and the game was afoot." Lawrence Block

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    That's the first hurdle, it now has to be voted on by the politicians...something they should have done anyway instead of wasting $122 million on a postal survey.
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    V good.
    Gerard>
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    Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Much ado about nada. Pass the law. No one will be forced to marry anyone they don't wanna.
    “What, Me Worry?". -. A. E. Newman

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    wait, there's a country out there more backward than the u.s. with respect to acceptance of homosexulaity? and its australia???
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    Much ado about nada.
    Not for those who will be able to get married, and couldn't before.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    wait, there's a country out there more backward than the u.s. with respect to acceptance of homosexulaity? and its australia???
    Less than 30% said no and over 79% of Australians voted. Sydney has one of the largest Gay festivals in the world that got started because gays finally got fed up with being bashed up by the cops...now the cops even have a float in it.
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    The fuss was more about the struggle for power between the competing moderate and extreme right factions within the government, and in a parliament in flux over eligibility to stand and a notional one seat majority this just became another issue for them to fight over.
    The public had moved on some years ago.

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Less than 30% said no and over 79% of Australians voted (wrong). Sydney has one of the largest Gay festivals in the world that got started because gays finally got fed up with being bashed up by the cops...now the cops even have a float in it.
    Despite you being wrong with the details (nothing new there), I agree with you on the result.

    Roughly 50% of Australians voted, by the way. 12.7 million of us, which is 79.5% of eligible voters.

    The plebiscite was a brilliant idea. The lefties blocked it, so the postal vote was organised to accomplish the same vote. Why did the lefties block it? They wanted the glory of bringing in the change for themselves. Pure bastardry on the part of the Leader of the Opposition, Bill Shorten.

    I've had a number of discussions with Oz pollies on the issue. Sometimes the path to a result has many twists and turns.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    The fuss was more about the struggle for power between the competing moderate and extreme right factions within the government, and in a parliament in flux over eligibility to stand and a notional one seat majority this just became another issue for them to fight over.
    The public had moved on some years ago.
    Actually, the fuss was about the Australian Labor Party wanting the glory. Bill Shorten will be spitting chips. Now, I guess, he'll snipe from the sidelines re the legislation. He'll do anything to get the glory on this one. Trust him at your peril.

    A secondary issue was about the struggle for power behind the government - not within. It was about those with power in preselections and party branches.... not within the government.

    But let's not have the truth get in the way of a good whinge, eh?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Despite you being wrong with the details (nothing new there), I agree with you on the result.

    Roughly 50% of Australians voted, by the way. 12.7 million of us, which is 79.5% of eligible voters.

    The plebiscite was a brilliant idea. The lefties blocked it, so the postal vote was organised to accomplish the same vote. Why did the lefties block it? They wanted the glory of bringing in the change for themselves. Pure bastardry on the part of the Leader of the Opposition, Bill Shorten.Wrong

    I've had a number of discussions with Oz pollies on the issue. Sometimes the path to a result has many twists and turns.
    The left thinks politicians should do what they're paid to do, consider then pass or not pass laws and not chicken out and ask the public to do it for them.

    An interesting president though, we now expect plebiscites on every new bit of legislation to see if it has popular approval.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    The left thinks politicians should do what they're paid to do, consider then pass or not pass laws and not chicken out and ask the public to do it for them.

    An interesting president though, we now expect plebiscites on every new bit of legislation to see if it has popular approval.
    We don't have one of those. Yet.

    Let's see how many of the lefties in Parliament don't support the legislation. I know politicians from the conservative right, who voted no in the postal plebiscite, who will now vote yes on the issue in parliament.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Despite you being wrong with the details (nothing new there), I agree with you on the result.

    Roughly 50% of Australians voted, by the way. 12.7 million of us, which is 79.5% of eligible voters.

    The plebiscite was a brilliant idea. The lefties blocked it, so the postal vote was organised to accomplish the same vote. Why did the lefties block it? They wanted the glory of bringing in the change for themselves. Pure bastardry on the part of the Leader of the Opposition, Bill Shorten.

    I've had a number of discussions with Oz pollies on the issue. Sometimes the path to a result has many twists and turns.
    Nitpicker.
    The plebiscite would have been and the postal survey was a total waste of money. The pollies just didn't have the guts to do the job we pay them to do.
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Nitpicker.
    The plebiscite would have been and the postal survey was a total waste of money. The pollies just didn't have the guts to do the job we pay them to do.
    So, it's either worth the change, or it isn't.

    Are you saying you'd rate the $122 million (a paltry amount relative to the billions spent on middle class welfare) higher than the change to the law?

    That's not very nice to those who want to see same sex marriage.

    However, if money is more important to you... that's fine. There's room for all. We're tolerant of people like you.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    So, it's either worth the change, or it isn't.

    Are you saying you'd rate the $122 million (a paltry amount relative to the billions spent on middle class welfare) higher than the change to the law?

    That's not very nice to those who want to see same sex marriage.

    However, if money is more important to you... that's fine. There's room for all. We're tolerant of people like you.
    You really are a worry sometimes Ian. I've got no idea how you got that out of my post.
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    From the OP

    “The Australian people have spoken, and they have voted overwhelmingly ‘yes’ for marriage equality,” said Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, who had called the national survey as a way to put pressure on conservative lawmakers, many from his own party. “They voted ‘yes’ for fairness, they voted ‘yes’ for commitment, they voted ‘yes’ for love.”

    That's not my understanding of it at all........
    We don't know how lucky we are....

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    The plebiscite was a brilliant idea. The lefties blocked it, so the postal vote was organised to accomplish the same vote. Why did the lefties block it? They wanted the glory of bringing in the change for themselves. Pure bastardry on the part of the Leader of the Opposition, Bill Shorten.
    No, The whole plebiscite thing was dreamed up by Abbott and his cohorts to stall and delay SSM, and as a way for the religious hardliners to have a last hateful dig at the LGBTI community.

    It was blocked because the 'lefties' realised that having a vote on the issue was going to get ugly and devisive pretty quickly. And it sure did.

    Now hopefully we can get the thing over and done with without the religous right creating extra discriminatory laws for homophobes to hide behind. And then we can work to fix the divisions in the society caused by the vote.

    The only positive out of the whole mess (aside from the big win for the yes vote) is the own goal by the big churches such as the catholic church. They have been exposed as hypocritical liars and preachers of hate and intolerance. I don't think this is going to help them recruit or retain followers into the future.

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    I think the wonderful argument (which is completely ireffutable) "No one will be forced to marry anyone they don't wanna."

    WOW! Wotta concept! It's gonna be up to the individual(s) as to whom they are going to commit ?

    REALLY ?

    Wow! There goes the society!!

    NO FUCKI* SH*T!!!
    Last edited by Vince Brennan; 11-15-2017 at 12:39 AM.
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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Thanks Keith! Yes, a great result. Even with our mandatory voting system, few politicians receive such an endorsement. The SSM survey was non-compulsory but the voter 'turnout' was higher than for elections in most supposedly democratic nations. Australia hasn't done much to be proud of lately but we can be proud today.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    "A secondary issue was about the struggle for power behind the government - not within. It was about those with power in preselections and party branches.... not within the government."

    Spare me the nitpicking Ian. I do not separate the actions of the elected or the non elected members and organisers of any political party. It's likely not even a legal fiction, just a way of avoiding responsibility.
    Remember the 'Faceless Men' campaign re the ALP? Same old same old. If the organisational wing get's its fingers burnt withy dodgy money the Parliamentary party comes up clean, Definitely a legal fiction that one.
    Last edited by skuthorp; 11-15-2017 at 04:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Meantime the Anti crew seem to have redoubled their efforts to nobble the process if they can.
    And in the end parliament STILL has to decide.

    Interesting to see the ALP Sydney seats were the lowest yes votes. Recent migrant communities so it's said.

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Thanks Keith! Yes, a great result. Even with our mandatory voting system, few politicians receive such an endorsement. The SSM survey was non-compulsory but the voter 'turnout' was higher than for elections in most supposedly democratic nations. Australia hasn't done much to be proud of lately but we can be proud today.

    Rick
    Exactly

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    The newer the migrants the more conservative but this is interesting .

    Abbott Campaigned For 'No' On Same-Sex Marriage Survey, But Most Of His Warringah Electorate Said 'Yes'

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2017/11/14/abbott-campaigned-for-no-on-same-sex-marriage-survey-but-most-of-his-warringah-electorate-said-yes_a_23277513/



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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    I think this might be a situation where the Liberal hard line conservatives have lost major ground, not because of the issue as such but more importantly, the way they have alienated themselves firstly within in their own party room and then within the wider voting public. The majority of Australians have in my mind been far more
    positive in attitude weather they be yes or no voters than those particular parliamentarians.
    Last edited by Hallam; 11-15-2017 at 05:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Just got back from the celebration in central Canberra. Andrew Barr (for non Aussies, he's effectively the head of government in the region that includes the capital city, and IIRC the first Australian person to be elected to such a position while openly gay) first came on stage to much applause and then raised his beer bottle to even more applause - very Aussie moment. The crowd wanted Penny (former deputy leader of the nation and an openly lesbian woman of Asian extraction) who was also there, with the Greens leader and a coalition across all parties. It was a magical evening. Enormously positive and friendly. Many people proud to be in the jurisdiction that voted YES more than any other. In another lovely moment, when we were making our way out of there I apologised for bumping some dude and it turned out to be the leader of our nation's third party (Di Natale of the Greens); no secret service or security to be seen, which fits with what has happened on other similar occasions. As a parent of a couple of kids who are queer as f*ck I just had to thank him and the other people who have been working so hard for this for such a long time.

    The most magical sight of the evening was probably the groups of older gay women, who have tried so hard for so long to cross the line that was so completely smashed to bits today. The second greatest thing was to see the move from each of the three main parties, all standing and exulting together.

    Oh, and if anyone in particular wants to write this off as the writings of a Canberra public servant type; I left school at 16, have worked in the private sector for about 90% of my time, and only moved here a few years ago.

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    And guess what's on TV tonight? Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. Love it.

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Just got back from the celebration in central Canberra. Andrew Barr (for non Aussies, he's effectively the head of government in the region that includes the capital city, and IIRC the first Australian person to be elected to such a position while openly gay) first came on stage to much applause and then raised his beer bottle to even more applause - very Aussie moment. The crowd wanted Penny (former deputy leader of the nation and an openly lesbian woman of Asian extraction) who was also there, with the Greens leader and a coalition across all parties. It was a magical evening. Enormously positive and friendly. Many people proud to be in the jurisdiction that voted YES more than any other. In another lovely moment, when we were making our way out of there I apologised for bumping some dude and it turned out to be the leader of our nation's third party (Di Natale of the Greens); no secret service or security to be seen, which fits with what has happened on other similar occasions. As a parent of a couple of kids who are queer as f*ck I just had to thank him and the other people who have been working so hard for this for such a long time.

    The most magical sight of the evening was probably the groups of older gay women, who have tried so hard for so long to cross the line that was so completely smashed to bits today. The second greatest thing was to see the move from each of the three main parties, all standing and exulting together.

    Oh, and if anyone in particular wants to write this off as the writings of a Canberra public servant type; I left school at 16, have worked in the private sector for about 90% of my time, and only moved here a few years ago.
    As if! I think back to the way homosexuals were treated when I was young in Sydney. Illegality, jailings, murders, frequent bashing and widespread community condemnation. Look how far they've come and we've come. All due to to their struggle and their commitment - we all benefit from that!

    Rick

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Just got back from the celebration in central Canberra . . .
    The most magical sight of the evening was probably the groups of older gay women, who have tried so hard for so long to cross the line that was so completely smashed to bits today. The second greatest thing was to see the move from each of the three main parties, all standing and exulting together.
    Hear hear!!

    Three days after same-sex marriage became legal in Minnesota (by legislative vote, well before it was legal nationally, I'm proud to say), I went to Monica and Nicole's wedding. Monica is a delightful young woman I've know since she was in utero. They now have two adopted kids, (Nicole's sister's biological children, who's screwed up enough to be quite incapable of raising them) and a happier and healthier family you'd be hard put to find.

    And I'll tell you ornery Australians again, whatever the faults of the process, you can be proud of the result. It's a victory for kindness, justice and decency.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Y'know, I went looking for Australian news respecting the positions of churches on this vote, to try and understand where some of our Aus forumites are coming from. The first thing that became obvious is that the media outside Australia hasn't been covering the amount of outright nastiness expressed in this campaign.

    The other thing I find interesting is that the media reports show diversity in the church positions. For instance, the Anglican and Catholic Dioceses in Sydney each contributed large $ to a coalition on the "No" side. The reasons weren't a declaration that LGBT folks were "sinful" or "abominations" or etc., but that the term "marriage" is specific to man/woman relationships. "Marriage" is a sacrament within those churches' theology, with its understanding grounded in the theoretical potential for the married couple to, without the biological contributions of anyone else, have children with each other. These churches' position seems to be that it is important to resist defining "marriage" to be primarily about the romantic wishes of 2 adults, and only at best secondarily about a context for child rearing.

    That said, it's certainly clear that there are a raft of very socially conservative Christians of various denominations who are vehemently opposed to same sex folks at all, and view anything other than heterosexuality as an orientation as hellish and awful. I didn't go looking for specific examples - but I'm absolutely certain that such exist. They do here, after all.

    But it's instructive to me that the Uniting Church ordains LGBT clergy (including folks in same-sex relationships), and has done since 1982. That the Anglican Church refused to take an Australia-wide stance (though the Sydney diocese did), and that photos abound on the web of individual Anglican parishes with "yes" signs and banners and supportive priests/congregants. Both of those denominations formally invited their members to vote their consciences.

    A concern that has been raised is whether Churches will be legally required to change their theological stances, through being required to perform same-sex marriages. While the present legislation proposed does not make such a requirement, some are worried that this would only be a temporary thing - and that requirements to perform marriages for people of any sexual identity could easily follow. Which would, of course, restrict religious freedom - it would force churches to change centuries-old theology.

    Regardless, the heat and fury of this same-sex marriage question goes a long ways towards explaining the tone of comments by some Aussie forumites in a number of recent threads. There have been isolated instances of violence, vandalism of a number of churches (often spraypainted with pretty stark epithets - about Nazis, crucifying "no" voters, etc.), etc. If the crazies are going that far, it's understandable that others' views will have polarized quite a ways ...

    For the record again, I'm personally glad that the Aus plebiscite turned out as it did, and have supported same sex marriages in Religious contexts for decades now - provided that the change to the term "marriage" is only about increasing the diversity of gender orientations, and not eroding vows of monogamy, the intent for lifelong commitment, etc.

    Personally, I wish that states would all do essentially what France has done, and have all legal civil unions be solemnized by the state directly. And that people who in addition wish to have a religious blessing of their union have just that - according to the religious understanding of their particular community.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Personally, I wish that states would all do essentially what France has done, and have all legal civil unions be solemnized by the state directly. And that people who in addition wish to have a religious blessing of their union have just that - according to the religious understanding of their particular community.
    This is not that far from what the US has done. We have civil legal marriage, registered with the states. These can be performed by anyone duly authorized, some of whom are religious, some not, in a church or not as desired. Religious organizations can impose additional qualifications beyond what's required by law, and no church is required to marry anyone if they don't meet the church's specific requirements. Orthodox rabbis only marry orthodox jews, Catholics don't do same-sex marriages, etc. No problem. People can always go elsewhere.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 11-15-2017 at 10:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    And guess what's on TV tonight? Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. Love it.
    I loved the scene on top of the bus. ( You have to watch it to appreciate it).


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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Some negative pronunciations by senior clergy were well answered by the phrase Child Abuse Royal Commission, a reference to a wide ranging enquiry into historical child sexual abuse within the well established churches.

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    Default Re: Well Done, Australia!

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Some negative pronunciations by senior clergy were well answered by the phrase Child Abuse Royal Commission, a reference to a wide ranging enquiry into historical child sexual abuse within the well established churches.
    Really?

    So by the same logic, several decades of abuse by sadistic prison staff and underfunding by slimy legislators preclude any political party which had held power in those decades from having opinions on whether your nation's justice system should focus on rehabilitation or on punishment?

    I'm not condoning sexual abuse, by church staff or anyone else. Not condoning coverups of it either. I don't see, though, how the fact of such crimes by some has any material bearing on the opinions of others on whether marriage should primarily be about the love between two adults, or primarily about the creation of a nurturing place for two adults to prepare a place for the biological children they'd together conceive.

    Again, I support Australia's population's decision - it's a position I've advocated for in Canada since the mid 1980s.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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