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Thread: would a robust national health service

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    Default would a robust national health service

    prevent mass shootings?


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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    No, but they'd do epidemiology studies into firearms deaths. There's a group or two who wouldn't like what could show up in the findings.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    (troll of the day)
    Ohhh, come ON.. you can do a better troll than THAT
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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Maybe.

    It would allow me access to affordable healthcare, though. I just CANNOT wait to get bumped for a pre-existing condition, again...

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    Stupid Enough To Get Hurt, Should Have The Sense To Wander Off And Die...

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    No, but they'd do epidemiology studies into firearms deaths. There's a group or two who wouldn't like what could show up in the findings.
    Right up until the point where Congress bans them from studying such matters.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    if it had adequate mental health services then i would say YES. to what degree it would help, i don't know.

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    if it had adequate mental health services then i would say YES. to what degree it would help, i don't know.
    Not a lot.
    We will have the same percentage of our population with mental health issues as the US, but only rarely murder our fellow citizens in large numbers.
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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Beware bipolar thinking. The word you want is 'reduce'. Preventing anything entirely is difficult, if not impossible.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Interesting data point: we all know that the United States suffers mass shootings at a rate VASTLY higher than the rest of the developed world....

    ....but when the rates of mental illness are compared, between the US, and the rest of the developed world, the apparent rates are nearly identical.

    What does this demonstrate? It's not really 'mental illness', per se....

    ...it's culture.
    "Fact is that which enough people believe. Truth is determined by how fervently they believe it."
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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    A robust mental health wing of a national health service might reduce bipolar thinking.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    No mentally healthy person walks into a church and opens fire with an assault rifle.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    No mentally healthy person walks into a church and opens fire with an assault rifle.
    Define mentally unhealthy. Symptoms, treatment, and so on.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Interesting data point: we all know that the United States suffers mass shootings at a rate VASTLY higher than the rest of the developed world.... ....but when the rates of mental illness are compared, between the US, and the rest of the developed world, the apparent rates are nearly identical. What does this demonstrate? It's not really 'mental illness', per se.... it's culture.
    Well, not necessarily. Mental illness is not very well understood compared to - say syphilis, or typhoid, or even cancer. We rarely if ever cure it - i.e. treat it so it goes away and doesn't come back. There are lots of things one can do to treat it, reduce or eliminate the symptoms, allow people to suffer less and lead better lives. I think the significant statistic would be the rate of untreated (or intermittently treated) mental illness - which might indeed be higher in a country without universal health care.

    Another obvious factor is the availability of the tools that allow one to kill large numbers of people quickly and efficiently.

    'Culture' I presume would mean the differences in thinking that makes folks in different cultures more or less likely to want to kill lots of people? Are Americans more likely to be murderous because of our culture, separate from other factors? Maybe. 'Mass killings' are only about 2% of murders in the US, a very small sample - but the US homicide rate is also higher than many other civilized countries (about 5x the rate in UK and Australia, 3X Canada, 16X Japan), although not at the top. Does it make sense to consider only the few people murdered in groups, rather than the much larger number that are murdered one by one ?

    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 11-14-2017 at 11:56 AM.
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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Well, not necessarily. Mental illness is not very well understood compared to - say syphilis, or typhoid, or even cancer. We rarely if ever cure it - i.e. treat it so it goes away and doesn't come back. There are lots of things one can do to treat it, reduce or eliminate the symptoms, allow people to suffer less and lead better lives. I think the significant statistic would be the rate of untreated (or intermittently treated) mental illness - which might indeed be higher in a country without universal health care.

    Another obvious factor is the availability of the tools that allow one to kill large numbers of people quickly and efficiently.

    'Culture' I presume would mean the differences in thinking that makes folks in different cultures more or less likely to want to kill lots of people? Are Americans more likely to be murderous because of our culture, separate from other factors? Maybe. 'Mass killings' are only a very small percentage of garden-variety murders, a very small sample - but the US homicide rate is also higher than many other civilized countries, although not at the top. Does it make sense to consider only the few people murdered in groups (about 2% of murders in the US), rather than the much larger number that are murdered one by one ?



    that's a good graph. we're not really as bad as some people make it seem, but there's a ton of room for improvement. i still believe the problem is as much culture as it is gun availability. turn on a tv in poland, sweden, belgium, greece, germany, etc and then turn on the tv in the us. we fill our programming with shoot'em'ups, horror, and all around violence. it's GLORIFIED. listen to our music. look at the popular video games. if you dumped a bunch of missile launchers and full autos in a town that only had access to leave it to beaver and andy griffith, i doubt you'd see much uptick in the murder rates.

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    you've watched much tv in poland, sweden, belgium, greece, germany, etc???
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    that's a good graph. we're not really as bad as some people make it seem, but there's a ton of room for improvement. i still believe the problem is as much culture as it is gun availability. turn on a tv in poland, sweden, belgium, greece, germany, etc and then turn on the tv in the us. we fill our programming with shoot'em'ups, horror, and all around violence. it's GLORIFIED. listen to our music. look at the popular video games. if you dumped a bunch of missile launchers and full autos in a town that only had access to leave it to beaver and andy griffith, i doubt you'd see much uptick in the murder rates.
    Well, maybe, maybe not. Look at the rate in the US over time.

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    that's a good graph. we're not really as bad as some people make it seem, but there's a ton of room for improvement. i still believe the problem is as much culture as it is gun availability. turn on a tv in poland, sweden, belgium, greece, germany, etc and then turn on the tv in the us. we fill our programming with shoot'em'ups, horror, and all around violence. it's GLORIFIED. listen to our music. look at the popular video games. if you dumped a bunch of missile launchers and full autos in a town that only had access to leave it to beaver and andy griffith, i doubt you'd see much uptick in the murder rates.
    So Russians an Brazilians watch lots of US TV?
    You got to do better than that.
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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    that's a good graph. we're not really as bad as some people make it seem, but there's a ton of room for improvement. i still believe the problem is as much culture as it is gun availability.
    I agree. although not necessarily for the reasons you cite.

    The study I was referring to in an earlier post was about mental illness in general, demonstrating that most developed nations have roughly similar incidences of all mental illness... but only the US has an extremely elevated rate of mass murder, which we might all agree represents at least some form of mental illness.

    Yes, it's culture... but I'm not so sure that the depictions of violence in the mass media is the reason. The media doesn't constitute everything that composes our cultural landscape.
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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    I agree. although not necessarily for the reasons you cite.

    The study I was referring to in an earlier post was about mental illness in general, demonstrating that most developed nations have roughly similar incidences of all mental illness... but only the US has an extremely elevated rate of mass murder, which we might all agree represents at least some form of mental illness.

    Yes, it's culture... but I'm not so sure that the depictions of violence in the mass media is the reason. The media doesn't constitute everything that composes our cultural landscape.
    The fact that collectively the US does not give a toss about the rate of gun death may well be cultural. An extension of the culture of "I've got mine, pull up the ladder" or something along those lines.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The fact that collectively the US does not give a toss about the rate of gun death . . .
    Not quite accurate. There's a minority who's passionately attached to their guns, and I suspect many of whom sincerely believe they're safer because of them, all evidence to the contrary. Because of the degree of passion, they have political influence out of proportion to their numbers.
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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Mental health is a proven very poor predictor of violence. Consider that women have mental health issues yet are not commonly mass shooters. Certain behaviors like gun ownership and domestic abuse are very good predictors.

    We need a robust mental health system and robust national health but not just to solve gun violence.

    We also need epidemiological studies of gun violence - currently banned at the behest of the NRA - to ensure that as we develop rational gun control we do it correctly. Gun control laws will be an evolutionary process and will involve trial and error.

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Not quite accurate. There's a minority who's passionately attached to their guns, and I suspect many of whom sincerely believe they're safer because of them, all evidence to the contrary. Because of the degree of passion, they have political influence out of proportion to their numbers.
    So why do the rest not campaign to overthrow the minority? Why are they not passionate about keeping US citizens and their children alive? They would not need to be that passionate to overthrow a minority.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    About half of "mass shootings" (4 or more dead) are domestic violence episodes. Earlier, robust, intervention might reduce this. Not sure if that is a health system function.
    About 2/3 of US firearm deaths are suicides. Health care system might address this. Ethical issue of the permissibility of suicide is unresolved.

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    So why do the rest not campaign to overthrow the minority? Why are they not passionate about keeping US citizens and their children alive? They would not need to be that passionate to overthrow a minority.
    I'd guess because the chance of it affecting them is miniscule, and that they all have lives to live and many other things to do besides political activism. Despite all the publicity, the number of people killed in mass shootings in the US is quite small, some of them are actually domestic violence (not that it makes it any better), and the overall murder rate has been decreasing for 25 years. One's actual chance of getting killed in a random public shooting incident is vanishingly small.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 11-14-2017 at 01:35 PM.
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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I'd guess because the chance of it affecting them is miniscule, and that they all have lives to live and many other things to do besides political activism. Despite all the publicity, the number of people killed in mass shootings in the US is quite small, some of them are actually domestic violence (not that it makes it any better), and the overall murder rate has been decreasing for 25 years. One's actual chance of getting killed in a random public shooting incident is vanishingly small.
    Just so
    In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate,” Dan Hodges, a British journalist, wrote in a post on Twitter two years ago, referring to the 2012 attack that killed 20 young students at an elementary school in Connecticut. “Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Interesting data point: we all know that the United States suffers mass shootings at a rate VASTLY higher than the rest of the developed world....

    ....but when the rates of mental illness are compared, between the US, and the rest of the developed world, the apparent rates are nearly identical.

    What does this demonstrate? It's not really 'mental illness', per se....

    ...it's culture.
    My thinking is that there is a line of thinking, or a subculture that teaches that a gun is the solution to a problem. All the way from the myths of the wild west to the worship of the heroic Marines who fight the terrorists, you can put your own examples in there, there are many. So when someone has a problem that they cant solve any other way, they'll turn to the solution that their culture has taught them will work.
    That covers suicide, murder of someone close, mass murder which can be seen as rebelling against a world where the protagonist doesn't feel they fit.


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    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    My thinking is that there is a line of thinking, or a subculture that teaches that a gun is the solution to a problem. All the way from the myths of the wild west to the worship of the heroic Marines who fight the terrorists, you can put your own examples in there, there are many. So when someone has a problem that they cant solve any other way, they'll turn to the solution that their culture has taught them will work.

    That covers suicide, murder of someone close, mass murder which can be seen as rebelling against a world where the protagonist doesn't feel they fit.
    Yeah, that's more or less what I meant, when I said it was a cultural thing.
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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Ohhh, come ON.. you can do a better troll than THAT
    seems to be rolling along okay
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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    “Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”

    "Grab 'em by the [crotch]" is elected president.

    "Alt-facts" and pathological lying are the norm.

    Pedophiles are judges.

    Yeah, I guess that's all on the path to "over".
    "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Alice

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    ...“Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”...
    The ultimate sad but true.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    The ultimate sad but true.
    from the cusp of when metallica became a sucky crappy formerly kick ass speed/thrash metal band

    Last edited by Paul Pless; 11-14-2017 at 05:22 PM.
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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    I agree. although not necessarily for the reasons you cite.

    The study I was referring to in an earlier post was about mental illness in general, demonstrating that most developed nations have roughly similar incidences of all mental illness... but only the US has an extremely elevated rate of mass murder, which we might all agree represents at least some form of mental illness.

    Yes, it's culture... but I'm not so sure that the depictions of violence in the mass media is the reason. The media doesn't constitute everything that composes our cultural landscape.
    My good wife is a Clinical Nurse Specialist in a forensic mental health hospital, tells me that very very few of her patients are violent beyond a swing or a push to get away from someone or something. Most are not at all aggressive, most of them live fearful lives and just want to be left alone. Homicidal paranoia is very rare and generally only aimed at a particular person or, more commonly their family.

    She has though mentioned that extreme ( in this case nominally Christian) religious beliefs are frequently part of the delusions that drive some of the more extremely unwell and they're more likely to be dangerous than the run of the mill madmen.

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    Default Re: would a robust national health service

    Information, education, and legislation changed the image of smoking. Remember when non smokers were the minority?
    If a sea change in the tobacco world could occur, maybe the gun minds can be changed.
    “What, Me Worry?". -. A. E. Newman

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