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Thread: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

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    Default Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    A truly religious (?) person, like Roy Moore, cannot put our constitution above his beliefs. When such a man takes elected office, he takes an oath to uphold the constitution, and violated the commandment about 'false witness'

    The other day I saw part of an interview with one of his supporters who supports him because she believes he's a "good Christian". Talk about faith.

    Heard the same from G.W. supporters, and he lied us into a pointless, costly, and endless war.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ
    Mmmm yes, " the vending machine on the left is the one with the vodka", got it.
    Somewhere between Murder and Suicide, there is a place called Merseyside.

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Moore has zip to do with my religion. Just saying.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Moore has zip to do with my religion. Just saying.
    Well, the problem is that he and the folks like him think that they DO have everything to do with your religion.

    What's so funny about peace love & understanding?

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    I agree, that is a problem. Which is part of why I make posts that are supposed to underscore the distinction.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    All the religions that I'm aware of have all these great clauses that allow people to do, pretty much, anything they want. Take 'faith' out of the picture and people become much more accountable. To be fair, an irrational faith in anything, not only gods and ghosts, is a dangerous thing. Stalin's USSR and Kim's North Korea are obvious examples, of course. My view is that we need to do all we can to achieve better education and higher levels of equality. Religion and other isms generally get in the way of those. Good people in religion or other can achieve great things and frequently do but plenty of very bad institutions were initiated by good people. As soon as faith begins to replace reason, we're on the road to disaster. I would never vote for a politician who claimed to have faith in anything that can't be substantiated.

    Rick

    I've edited this post to change 'all regions' to 'all the religions that I'm aware of' to ease the angst of some. I believe pretty firmly that religion is a social construct and no more than that. I believe that blind faith is an unhealthy thing. Some people are very upset that I hold and express such a view. Bad luck! I've lived a long time with religious claptrap being rammed down my throat, ears and other avenues. I won't be browbeaten by those who defend the indefensible.
    Last edited by RFNK; 11-13-2017 at 11:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    You sit out most elections? Have you actually EVER managed to vote?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    Mmmm yes, " the vending machine on the left is the one with the vodka", got it.
    Ouzo, maybe...
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    When I used to watch Donahue's show, HE noticed that whenever someone began speaking with, "I'm a Christian...." something very ugly followed.

    Judge Mathis one day when we were watching had a defendant who began with, "I'm a Christian...." and the judge laughed. He just knew this man was going to lie. And he did.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    You sit out most elections? Have you actually EVER managed to vote?
    It's probably easier here than there but yes, tricky. I haven't always felt as strongly as I do now. And I should qualify - I don't investigate candidate's private beliefs and I wouldn't vote for someone because they weren't religious. In any case I believe that the tadpoles in our fish pond would do a better job of running the country than any of our current gaggle of politicians so it's a case of voting for the least dangerous candidates available. Tricky.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    I disagree with the very first sentence of this post.

    I believe a truly religious person can also uphold our constitution and they do just that. What about religion precludes that?

    (fwiw I don't happen to be a religious person)
    Tom

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Rick, fwiw I am getting really tired of posts which begin "all" or "every" or in some other way set up to describe a universal truth, which then go on to bash religion. Understand that such posts catch quite a number of good folks here, and disparage then all to hell.

    I am quite happy, frankly, to often agree with many of the critiques that follow - and have myself launched threads about them, making a similar point.

    But unless you are intending to alienate people who would otherwise often agree with you, drop the universal language.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    I disagree with the very first sentence of this post.

    I believe a truly religious person can also uphold our constitution and they do just that. What about religion precludes that?

    (fwiw I don't happen to be a religious person)
    I agree with this. Most of the founders might have been called religious. They seem to have done well. (Except for slavery, equality, gun ownership, and all those changes to the constitution.)

    Certainly a religious person will make different decisions than a person like Trump, but we accept that as part of how a republic works.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Rick, fwiw I am getting really tired of posts which begin "all" or "every" or in some other way set up to describe a universal truth, which then go on to bash religion. Understand that such posts catch quite a number of good folks here, and disparage then all to hell.

    I am quite happy, frankly, to often agree with many of the critiques that follow - and have myself launched threads about them, making a similar point.

    But unless you are intending to alienate people who would otherwise often agree with you, drop the universal language.
    Tom, I believe everything I wrote there and I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time qualifying everything I write to avoid upsetting you. I'm as entitled to express my opinions as you are yours. Hypocrisy and dishonesty are massive in all the religions I'm aware of. There may well be some that I'm not aware of. I'm not attacking you and nor would I want to.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ
    Here, let me google that for you, it is Matthew 22:21

    ======

    In 1960, JFK said that he would resign his office if the morality of his religion were such that it precluded him from upholding the Constitution. Would that the hypocrites of today's GOP were so noble.
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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    I disagree with the very first sentence of this post.

    I believe a truly religious person can also uphold our constitution and they do just that. What about religion precludes that?

    (fwiw I don't happen to be a religious person)
    When a truly religious person, who, by definition, must put God and his religion first, is confronted with a conflict between his religious beliefs and the constitution, he MUST put his religion first. His religion says it comes first, and his oath of office says the constitution comes first. It cannot be both.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I agree with this. Most of the founders might have been called religious. They seem to have done well. (Except for slavery, equality, gun ownership, and all those changes to the constitution.)

    Certainly a religious person will make different decisions than a person like Trump, but we accept that as part of how a republic works.
    I seem to recall some of our founders making specific statements that would disagree with your premise.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Tom, I believe everything I wrote there and I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time qualifying everything I write to avoid upsetting you. I'm as entitled to express my opinions as you are yours. Hypocrisy and dishonesty are massive in all the religions I'm aware of. There may well be some that I'm not aware of. I'm not attacking you and nor would I want to.

    Rick
    Of course you are entitled to have opinions... and express them. You are entitled to be as ignorant as you desire... and as vociferous as you like in sharing that ignorance.

    That doesn't mean, however, that those of us who have, perhaps, more experience in the topic at hand won't correct your mistakes.

    For instance. As a matter of logic and rhetoric, when you take a topic as broad, variable, and nuanced as religion, and start your analysis with the word 'all', I'm afraid I have to agree with Tom that what follows is liable to be cowflop. My word, not his. He's much too polite. But true in this instance.
    David G
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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    When a truly religious person, who, by definition, must put God and his religion first, is confronted with a conflict between his religious beliefs and the constitution, he MUST put his religion first. His religion says it comes first, and his oath of office says the constitution comes first. It cannot be both.
    I'm afraid I must take issue with your definition. As would most religious scholars. It's an easy enough impression to get, but it is - while not totally incorrect, at the very least... incomplete. And it is, btw, an example of the type of simplistic analysis that comes of getting your impressions only from the sort of hypocritical, self-aggrandizing, loudmouth, anything but truly religious, dingbats that make the news and who loudly and publicly proclaim their devout religious beliefs.

    Fact is... a ton of awfulness has been committed in the name of religion thru the centuries. Who on earth would try to defend the Spanish Inquisition, for just one notorious example. And a ton of good as well. Far less well known. It's the awful, however, that people remember. That makes the headlines and history books.

    It rather reminds me of those who look at the period we're in, where capitalism has malfunctioned thru loosening the regulation of the greedy instead of keeping them firmly in harness driving the economy in productive directions, and decide that 'capitalism is the problem, and an abomination'. Capitalism, like religion, has its flaws, its built-in dangers, and yet... and yet... it serves a purpose. In fact... for all its flaws, it remains the best mechanism humans have invented for arranging the economics of life. And - as for religion - it serves a purpose as well. Just ask yourself, 'why does religion even exist?'. Don't allow yourself the swift, cheeky, or cynical answer. Insist on an earnest, carefully considered answer.

    Or ask Voltaire what he meant when he said, "If God didn't exist, we'd have to invent him".
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by SMARTINSEN View Post
    Here, let me google that for you, it is Matthew 22:21
    Matthew 22:21 is about vodka and vending machines?
    bccphalarope(dot)com

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Matthew 22:21 is about vodka and vending machines?
    it is now
    its a living bible ya know
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Better be good vodka.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I seem to recall some of our founders making specific statements that would disagree with your premise.
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/The...ianity-1272214 seems to agree with me.

    Being religious has never been a disqualification for public office. It should not be for Moore. But I do agree with those who believe his treatment of teenagers does disqualify him.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Of course you are entitled to have opinions... and express them. You are entitled to be as ignorant as you desire... and as vociferous as you like in sharing that ignorance.

    That doesn't mean, however, that those of us who have, perhaps, more experience in the topic at hand won't correct your mistakes.

    For instance. As a matter of logic and rhetoric, when you take a topic as broad, variable, and nuanced as religion, and start your analysis with the word 'all', I'm afraid I have to agree with Tom that what follows is liable to be cowflop. My word, not his. He's much too polite. But true in this instance.
    How arrogant and defensive you are David! For goodness' sake - grow up!

    Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 11-13-2017 at 11:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    How arrogant and defensive you are David! For goodness' sake - grow up!

    Rick
    Well... neither of those is correct. But for the sake of argument... let's say they were. How does that comment address the points I raised? Is this a case of having nothing of substance to respond with, yet feeling the need to say something? Or are you attempting, in rather obvious fashion, to influence the discussion with an ad hominem attack? If you regard logical fallacies as legitimate arguments... then it's no wonder your thinking regarding religion is a bit muddled.

    Would you like to attempt to recover from this false step with some actual facts/data/logic?
    Last edited by David G; 11-13-2017 at 11:29 PM.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Well... neither of those is correct. But for the sake of argument... let's say they were. How does that comment address the points I raised? Is this a case of having nothing of substance to respond with, yet feeling the need to say something? Or are you attempting, in rather obvious fashion, to influence the discussion with an ad hominem attack? If you regard logical fallacies as legitimate arguments... then it's no wonder your thinking regarding religion is a bit muddled.

    Would you like to attempt to recover from this false step with some actual facts/data/logic?
    Very happy to hear your case for the accusations you made. I suspect you don't actually have one, hence my comment.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Also keen to hear which of my comments are 'logical fallacies'?

    Rick

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Also keen to hear which of my comments are 'logical fallacies'?

    Rick
    #26 didn't make that clear to you? When you chose not to address the topic, and instead chose to address my personal failings (even if your conclusion were inaccurate)... it was an example of this fallacy --

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Very happy to hear your case for the accusations you made. I suspect you don't actually have one, hence my comment.

    Rick
    Just to be clear... what exactly are you referring to when you say 'the accusations you made'? A specific quote (or more, if necessary) would be helpful. I'm happy to answer your question... as soon as I know what it is.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    denying any possible credit to a person of faith, simply because they have embraced faith implies that a non religious person, an Atheist is somehow a better person, simply because they have no faith.....give me a break. A lot of people are total sh1tz, whether they hold a spiritual belief or not. A person gains credit ...at least with me in how they conduct themselves, not by the badge, or cross or other symbol they might follow.
    I guess Rick, you don't have religion....have faith....That is OK...just fine really. You can even hold your particular truth strongly. But you are responsible only for your spiritual path. you are not qualified to speak about some other persons path or assume because they simply believe in magic, they are out to screw you or that their judgement is severely flawed......get over it....till some one...religious or otherwise tries to coerce you to follow their particular God...you cannot, with any credit damn them simply for their belief.

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    #26 didn't make that clear to you? When you chose not to address the topic, and instead chose to address my personal failings (even if your conclusion were inaccurate)... it was an example of this fallacy --

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem



    Just to be clear... what exactly are you referring to when you say 'the accusations you made'? A specific quote (or more, if necessary) would be helpful. I'm happy to answer your question... as soon as I know what it is.
    Sure. You said I was ignorant and vociferous. You also said you were more experienced in this topic (?) than I. What do you base any of that on?

    I suggest some of you stop frothing at the mouth and actually read what I wrote. But if this is some sort of closed discussion group to which only a select group are invited to participate in, I'm happy to bugger off and let you continue whatever it is you wish to discuss without dissenting views!

    I haven't attacked anyone! I have attacked religion because after more consideration than any of you, I suspect, I've concluded that it's pretty much all nonsense! Worthy of study but little else. You can tell me I'm wrong - that's fine! If you care to show me how I'm wrong or demonstrate how religion is actually contributing to a better world, I'd be happy to hear it! But you can't, I suspect.

    Getting back to John's original query - I'm with those who see politicians claiming to have God on their side and then proceed to behave disgracefully, and have learned not to trust those.

    I also think some of you might have a fairly convenient view of religion. If you tweak it so much to avoid the ridiculous and inconvenient, and to match contemporary values etc., is it still that religion or even a religion? I mean, if it comes down to a belief that there's something out there/in there that's pretty ill-defined, is that religion? If you're a Catholic but don't agree with much of what the Catholic Church has been up to for the last millenium or so, are you actually a Catholic? I think these are valid questions.

    Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 11-14-2017 at 02:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    When a truly religious person, who, by definition, must put God and his religion first, is confronted with a conflict between his religious beliefs and the constitution, he MUST put his religion first. His religion says it comes first, and his oath of office says the constitution comes first. It cannot be both.
    As I said, I don't agree with that. Show me that definition.

    It is completely possible to put God first in your life and still uphold the constitution. The two are not mutually exclusive.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    As I said, I don't agree with that. Show me that definition.

    It is completely possible to put God first in your life and still uphold the constitution. The two are not mutually exclusive.
    Article VI might be the nub:
    Article. VI.

    All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
    This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

    The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
    Amendments II and XIX might also be an issue.
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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    I'm still not seeing how upholding the laws of the constitution violates religion. Religion is a belief system. Laws are rules of society.

    Maybe someone can give a specific example.

    Maybe I got it wrong when I went to church as a kid but seems to me that while I was taught what our religion believed, it was understood that not everyone believed that. We were still supposed to love others even if they were sinners. We couldn't force our beliefs on them but we could spread the word and provide the opportunity for others to be "saved". One of the basic tenets was not to judge others.

    As far as amendment II, I see plenty of "truly religious" people backing it, especially here in the south.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Violating one's faith as one takes the oath of office

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    I'm still not seeing how upholding the laws of the constitution violates religion. Religion is a belief system. Laws are rules of society.

    Maybe someone can give a specific example.

    Maybe I got it wrong when I went to church as a kid but seems to me that while I was taught what our religion believed, it was understood that not everyone believed that. We were still supposed to love others even if they were sinners. We couldn't force our beliefs on them but we could spread the word and provide the opportunity for others to be "saved". One of the basic tenets was not to judge others.

    As far as amendment II, I see plenty of "truly religious" people backing it, especially here in the south.
    US Law states that gay marriage is legal. Three words: Kimberly Jean Davis.

    As to freedom of religion, do fundi Christians all want to extend that right to Muslims?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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