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Thread: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

  1. #1
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    Default Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    Hi everyone!

    I've been lurking on these forums for over two years now, and I still have tons of questions. A few years back I had decided to build a Welsford Navigator. I ordered the plans at about the same time my second daughter was born... so obviously I did not get very far. Now she's two and playing nicely with her older sister, which frees up some of my time. So I'm back reading these forums religiously and planning my build(s).

    Here is the quick question, and I'll provide some details below if you want to keep reading: I'm now thinking about building Houdini instead of Navigator. Will I regret building the "smaller" Houdini to save a few $ on sails/rigging and hours of work vs. building the Navigator? How comparable or different are they?

    -----

    A few more long-winded details if you feel like reading on:

    I'm looking for a 15ft and below daysailer that can carry 4 and camp 2, if needed. I like the possibility of sleeping aboard. Both Navigator and Houdini fit that bill very well. A few years back I liked Navigator's looks, so I bought the plans. These days however, I'm drawn towards Houdini's simplicity. It seems easier to build and sail, and it still fits my requirements. So I bought the plans as well.

    I live in Quebec so I'll mostly sail nearby lakes, the St-Lawrence now and then, Lake Champlain in Vermont and (about as far into the future as I can see) maybe the Maine Island Trail.

    I plan to build two boats. A small one that can sail two (at most) for weekend fun on smaller lakes, and a bigger one that I'd take out as needed, particularly as the girls get older. I'm already in the process of building the small one (a 9.5ft Nutshell Pram) in my basement. I realized recently it JUST won't clear a 90 degree turn to get it out of my basement, so I'm down to building as many parts as I can this winter and assembling them starting in April / May in my garage.

    Winters here are LONG though, so I'll be out of parts to build for the Nutshell before I start assembling, which is why I thought about starting on my 2nd build as well (I wanted to do them back to back, but an overlap also makes sense in terms of materials). I just don't know which 2nd boat to choose. I'm hoping to sail the Nutshell by the middle / end of next summer if all goes according to plan. I don't expect to sail the bigger boat for another 4-5 years from now though. I thought maybe a Houdini would be doable a year faster (3 years vs. 4 for me, or faster if by some miracle I get more free time).

    Houdini is "lighter" on paper, but needs some ballast, so they even out. Navigator is prettier, but more expensive (sails and rigging). I like Houdini's sleeping platform more than the typical Navigator configuration. Navigator recovers better from a capsize, though with the sails it might be a bit harder to right. Houdini might be "just enough" boat for my needs, I'm not sure I need the added benefits of the Navigator... but then again, when you've already invested that long into a project what's another year? The deck and coaming on both the Navigator and Houdini are particularly well suited for a tent.

    3-4 years is a big investment in a project, and I'm getting cold feet. I had no problem settling on the Nutshell (I even ordered the sail kit before I ordered the plywood) but this 2nd boat is a tough one.

    Thanks for reading this far! Yes, I do want to *build* a boat rather than buy or buy/restore a CL16 or something similar. I work in front of a computer all day and I *need* projects like this for my sanity. I have also considered other boats, Ilur was high on my list but rather too complex to build I thought. Many others were rejected based on lack of space for sleeping aboard / cruise camping flexibility. And I have google searched these forums and the archives to no end, I still can't decide... it sometimes makes it worse hehe. There aren't many 13ft to 17ft boats I haven't looked at in the past few months, and some of them are SO pretty it's hard to stay focused on what you really need vs. what you want (one of each, please!)

    Thanks again for your input!
    Last edited by victord; 11-12-2017 at 10:45 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    It is easy to keep changing your mind as you wait to build. Don't ask how I know this. I say you will enjoy the extra size later on with your expanding family. Focus on sourcing good deals on rigging, maybe make (some)sails yourself, and start now doing smaller jobs as your doing similar parts with the nutshell to save time. I have never read anything that makes it sound like a smaller boat is better when under 20 feet unless storage or portage or trailer weight is of concern. (One of each please for me as well)
    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I have driven a 6.5l Dodge with diesel Cummins and it was glorious....

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    Hard to deny the Navigator is a sweet looker, and that Houdini may just be a simpler build. If you are not in a rush, i would say Navigator, you can always rig as a sloop to cut down on costs.
    I built a Michalak family skiff, will sleep 2 on the cockpit seats and daysail 4. Single lug rig. 200 hour build time including the sail. Not what i call a "looker", but logically it ticked all the other boxes......except for that leeboard, i had to ditch that in favour of a daggerboard, just a personal thing. Loads of dry stowage and bouyancy. For rougher waters or more adventure, i would add small side decks and a coaming just so it would be easy to attatch a boom tent, but bungy hooks mounted under the rub rail work. I have never had the side decks anywhere close to shipping water sailing solo. It motors really great, but is not the best rowing machine. For my use, still a good choice, and the high initial stabilty has not scared off anyone that shrieked after stepping into my old sail and oar boat. Lots of boats in this size that might suit, the devil is really in the detail.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    Since you aren't likely to get much free time, and need a 'big' small boat, that is quick to rig and de rig while your girls wait, simple to sail (one sail and rig), has storage, can sleep 2 and must have good capsize recovery performance and preferably hard to capsize in the first place. I think you'd be best to order and assemble a SCA/ Welsford Scamp kit from SCA. It also is armed with water ballast for a big safety reserve in higher winds and will improve motion comfort if you're ever caught out. The cuddly will be a usefull windbreak for them. It has all the attributes I would seek for a 'young family' boat that they could later easily learn to sail, and later also makes a great expedition boat. Plenty of support on it's own forum at SCA. Since its been CAD developed from John's initial plans, it will go together with very fine precision, in likely half the time - you could even build the hull of one on site at a Scamp Camp on site over a week or two that they run combining a holiday to break the back of it.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 11-13-2017 at 05:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    I vote Navigator too, in the time frame you've laid out the slightly more complex boat isn't going to take that much longer and I think you'll get a lot more boat. It will be a nice counter to the very simple Nutshell.

    Take advantage of those long winters and start with the small stuff like making wood blocks, buy some appropriately sized dyneema to splice up your own standing rigging and get Sailrite to put together a kit. A decent home sewing machine will be able to sew up sails this size, zig-zag is nice but not absolutely necessary.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    Pretty unanimous huh? Thanks everyone, I guess I just have to bite the bullet and just go for the Navigator despite my initial reservations. As the build progresses I'm sure I'll be less and less apprehensive about its complexities. I'll probably mull it over a bit longer, though I should just start slowly with the kit parts and see where that takes me.

    I have a Sailrite kit for the Nutshell already and a decent sewing machine is on my list of "boatbuilding" tools to buy (it will likely pay for itself very fast). If it's not too complicated I could go the same route for the Navigator sails.

    As for Scamp, I kept looping back to it. It ticks all the boxes except for looks. I just can't bring myself to like it despite the amazing feedback I have read from owners. Might seem superficial, but I'm just not drawn to it.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    I built a Houdini mainly because I thought it would be simpler and because my building space was almost too small for a Navigator. I love my Houdini but the Navigator is a better looking boat. I don't think you could go wrong with either. If looks are important, go with the Navigator. If getting done and going sailing are important, go with the Houdini.
    Bill
    Welsford Houdini cat yawl Mary T

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    I agree, go with the Navigator. No matter how big any boat looks and feels in the garage, as soon as you leave the dock it will shrink to about half that size.
    -Dave

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill7254 View Post
    I built a Houdini mainly because I thought it would be simpler and because my building space was almost too small for a Navigator. I love my Houdini but the Navigator is a better looking boat. I don't think you could go wrong with either. If looks are important, go with the Navigator. If getting done and going sailing are important, go with the Houdini.
    I've probably seen every single photo in your flicker feed. I love your Houdini and I was planning to steal a few of your ideas (the ballast forms in particular I found to be an amazing idea). Have you ever sailed a Navigator? I would love to hear from someone who has sailed both.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    Before you commit, take a look at this Flickr build of a navigator. Although it looks complicated, as everyone will tell you, building a boat is a matter of building simple sub assemblies and then putting them together. It may reassure you that the build is achievable and not too difficult.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/waller...7623689676082/

    John Welsfords Backyard Boatbuilding has a lot of discussion and anecdotes on both the Houdini and Navigator so might be worth tracking a copy down to help your decision.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    Victor be aware that John has different lines of boats that are necessarily engineered differently.

    The Navigator has a planing bottom, that will be best sailed upright. It has the ability to plane which can be fast and fun. All such planing boats have more tendancy to roll and pitch in waves and potentially get a bit of weather helm as the the boat rolls. They can also carry more wetted area aft which has an effect at low speeds (altough this can be ameliorated with a higher sail area) but will be slower under oar. Not that a Navigator will do that, John puts alot of thought into his boats - I'm making generalisations about most boats with a planing bottom. As it happens the extra stability from a wider and wider aft waterplane is often liked by 'cruisers' looking for space and stability. Going fast can also be fun...Navigator is a great boat with great looks and a very strong following. Easy resale. Plenty of books and blogs. Its a 'cruising rig' on a performance bottom.

    The Houdini is on a different line. Pilgrim and Sundowner's line. These boats aren't planing boats, have a different waterplane shape and other points of naval architecture tailered to moving more efficiently at sub planing speeds. John also makes efforts to make them directionally stable - the greater keel aft and immersed boat will reduce yawing motions for example. They are designed to be better balanced when heeled under press of sail - less weather helm - the waterplane and reserve buoyancy is more easy to keep balanced. These boats are less straked and enclosed with fewer planks. They derive from John's studies of UK West Country boats. My only reservations with Houdini is the lack of normal seating per plan - I think you lie accross the rear floor probably aimed at keeping weight low.

    Having had a young family out with a trailer sailer, it's really important to have a fast rig and de rig. 5 minutes is good. 30 minutes is bad. You'll be happy but they won't be if they've got a bit cold and sat in the car. To this end you'll benefit from one halyard, one sail, one sheet, one hollow mast, no standing rigging. Attributes that make a good solo man boat with an interest in sailing aren't entirely the same as a good family boat. Its good to be clear with yourself at the outset who and what the boats for.

    They are all capable and relatively easy to build.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 11-14-2017 at 05:19 AM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    Phil, another flicker I have browsed religiously. I'm not necessarily worried about the difficulty of building the boat, more about the number of components I would need to cut and assemble. Though the more I look at Navigator, the more I realize it shouldn't take THAT much longer to build than a Houdini.

    Thanks for your reply Edward, you've raised some interesting points, and some I have to look into a little longer. I was aware of Navigator's performance / sailing school hull and Houdini's catboat inspiration (I got to Houdini by researching catboats). The finer points you mentioned I was not entirely aware of, and it gives me a better idea of how the boats will perform. The lack of seating on the Houdini is not a concern, I actually liked the simplicity and it would allow me to configure some low seats that clip in perhaps as needed. And the inherent instability of a racing hull seem to be very well balanced by the Navigator's yawl rigging.

    The smaller size, simplified rigging, simplified construction of the Houdini are all things I see a benefits for my needs. Not just for the family. My typical day out sailing will be on a lake, so the smaller boat seems to be more readily accessible. For the occasional camping trip, the Houdini is just big enough. I'm a minimalist camper, so I don't need a lot of storage on the boat either. And for when I don't want to deal with the bigger boat, the Nutshell will come in handy (the girls will likely learn to sail the Nutshell as they get older, and hopefully one day I'll be able to take both boats out at once as they grow older). If I need a bit more excitement I can just rent a Laser or a 420 at a nearby marina, I don't need a dedicated boat for splashing around.

    From your experience sailing with a young family, and since you seem to know both the Houdini and the Navigator very well, which would you prefer? It will be primarily a family-oriented boat. I'll build my single cruising / retirement boat when I get there, by then I'll have a bit more experience under my belt and I'll know better what to aim for.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    There is a few more parts involved with Navigator, but i couldnt say that its anymore difficult to build than Houdini, both involve cutting plywood shapes and attaching them to a frame. Everyone has their own limits on how they choose to compromise, you can spend 20 hours or 200 building a 8ft dinghy, both will do the same job, but one is more likely to leave you with a personal satisfaction, and not always the more time consuming. Looks however are another thing, if you find yourself strongly drawn to the looks of Nav over Houdini, then the little extra effort will most likely be rewarded. I thought that yawl rigged Houdini was a real nice looking boat.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    A chap who built one in the UK put an outboard motor well in aft on the centerline which is a good position. Filled it with a box plug when not in use. He also made it completely self drain from the fore and aft cockpit into the well so it was self draining. I think Houdini has a sump for a bilge pump which is a nice feature. There was talk of a 17/18ft 5.3m Houdini on the drawing board. With fore and aft standing lug rig that would be a very usefull boat.







    Anyone looking in the UK for a Houdini...that one above is going cheap...bargain with a nice engine and trailer for 1000. Jekells sail. Tempted myself, to try one out - though it was built built Birch ply so it will be a bit heavier (but won't need ballast?) to trolley around probably. Birch isn't so duable but I think it was epoxy coated and the builder was a building surveyor. Ester - the above boat - was featured (along with John's description of Houdini) in a pair of articles in Nov/ Dec 2001 Watercraft if anyone wants to read and look: the edition has a Coquina on the front. John clearly liked his.

    https://www.andyseedhouseboats.co.uk/boats/2379-Esther

    Houdini 'Spart' in Bass Strait:



    Shows his electrical set up..
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHM...rbC4Rls813lKuw
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 11-16-2017 at 06:24 AM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    I really liked the electrical setup on Spart, and she seems like a very stable boat out in a bit of chop. I'd build the yawl version so I could heave to easily, and because it looks quite nice too. The ballast blocks from Bill's design with a little hatch would allow me to add and remove ballast as needed, which could be very handy launching from a steep ramp let's say.

    I'm focusing on the Nutshell right now as my plywood and lumber are taking a bit longer to arrive than anticipated (forklifts were down at Noah's Marine in Ontario), so I'll keep researching before I start the second build. I ordered both the Nov/Dec 2001 and the July/Aug 1999 editions of Watercraft, one for the Houdini and one for the Navigator.

    I'm leaning towards Houdini, but I still haven't decided. Maybe when the time comes to bite the bullet and start putting together the first piece it will be an easier decision.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    ^ You would have thought at that price it wouldnt hang around. What might put some off is the lack of seating benches, not that it would be a big issue to cobble something up. Would be interested if that birch has held up over years, especially if it has had a lot of use.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    I would have picked it up without blinking an eye, just a bit out of range to trailer it back home for me hehe.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Victor be aware that John has different lines of boats that are necessarily engineered differently.

    The Navigator has a planing bottom, that will be best sailed upright. It has the ability to plane which can be fast and fun. All such planing boats have more tendancy to roll and pitch in waves and potentially get a bit of weather helm as the the boat rolls. They can also carry more wetted area aft which has an effect at low speeds (altough this can be ameliorated with a higher sail area) but will be slower under oar. Not that a Navigator will do that, John puts alot of thought into his boats - I'm making generalisations about most boats with a planing bottom. As it happens the extra stability from a wider and wider aft waterplane is often liked by 'cruisers' looking for space and stability. Going fast can also be fun...Navigator is a great boat with great looks and a very strong following. Easy resale. Plenty of books and blogs. Its a 'cruising rig' on a performance bottom.

    The Houdini is on a different line. Pilgrim and Sundowner's line. These boats aren't planing boats, have a different waterplane shape and other points of naval architecture tailered to moving more efficiently at sub planing speeds. John also makes efforts to make them directionally stable - the greater keel aft and immersed boat will reduce yawing motions for example. They are designed to be better balanced when heeled under press of sail - less weather helm - the waterplane and reserve buoyancy is more easy to keep balanced. These boats are less straked and enclosed with fewer planks. They derive from John's studies of UK West Country boats. My only reservations with Houdini is the lack of normal seating per plan - I think you lie accross the rear floor probably aimed at keeping weight low.

    Having had a young family out with a trailer sailer, it's really important to have a fast rig and de rig. 5 minutes is good. 30 minutes is bad. You'll be happy but they won't be if they've got a bit cold and sat in the car. To this end you'll benefit from one halyard, one sail, one sheet, one hollow mast, no standing rigging. Attributes that make a good solo man boat with an interest in sailing aren't entirely the same as a good family boat. Its good to be clear with yourself at the outset who and what the boats for.

    They are all capable and relatively easy to build.
    Thank you for the input Edward, much appreciated and you've got it pretty much right. But Houdini as per plan has sternsheets, that forms seats and a footwell aft of the 'sleeping flat".
    Performance wise you've nailed it, Houdini is a witch in light airs and copes with rough stuff really well, Navigator has a more sporty performance but do bear in mind that several have completed quite outstanding open water voyages. Both lines of design have been continued into larger boats, and I'm pleased to say that the performance characteristics of each "line" have been very consistent. Houdini being analogous to a Land Rover and Navigator to a sporting four door saloon.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    Quote Originally Posted by victord View Post
    Pretty unanimous huh? Thanks everyone, I guess I just have to bite the bullet and just go for the Navigator despite my initial reservations. As the build progresses I'm sure I'll be less and less apprehensive about its complexities. I'll probably mull it over a bit longer, though I should just start slowly with the kit parts and see where that takes me.

    I have a Sailrite kit for the Nutshell already and a decent sewing machine is on my list of "boatbuilding" tools to buy (it will likely pay for itself very fast). If it's not too complicated I could go the same route for the Navigator sails.

    As for Scamp, I kept looping back to it. It ticks all the boxes except for looks. I just can't bring myself to like it despite the amazing feedback I have read from owners. Might seem superficial, but I'm just not drawn to it.
    On Navigator there are more parts to the build, but they're smaller parts, the skill level required is about the same.
    Good luck with your current project, and this one when you get to it.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    John, thanks you very much for the input. I think the last few comments on the stability of the boat settle it for me, as well as the performance in light air (which I haven't thought about much, but on lakes the wind tends to shift around a lot). Paired with the faster build time, lighter weight (not counting the ballast) and simplified rigging (this also means less maintenance down the road) my moment of hesitation I think is gone, I'll go for the Houdini. I had the plans for Navigator, thought about it and decided the Houdini was a better fit for me. But as soon as I had the Houdini plans in hand, as always, I had a sudden moment of doubt... hence this thread. While I understand the need for a larger boat, I'll get to that one when the time comes (else I won't have an excuse to build another boat later on).

    Thank you everyone for the time and the input! I'll start blogging my builds soon, my plywood has finally shipped so I'll get laminating and cutting parts for the Nutshell and start the Houdini centerboard and rudder at the same time. I don't expect the Houdini to be done sooner than 3-4 years from now, but I'm in no rush.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    Great choice. Its nice to have all good choices in the mix, you can't go wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I have driven a 6.5l Dodge with diesel Cummins and it was glorious....

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    I don’t know about Houdini, but i built a Nav 2 years ago. First boat. No tools. No skills. If I can do it anybody can. It’s nothing more than 5000 easily performed tasks in succession. Navigator is a great boat. Fun to sail. I get many compliments every time I take her out.

    I personally feel that you CAN fit 4 people onboard. 2 is ok. 1 is best. I don’t think I would go camp cruising with more than 2 if you were planning to sleep aboard.

    I too would like my next summer to have more camp cruising. But I think I need a slightly bigger boat. Pathfinder with a small cuddy might be the perfect choice.

    This is my Nav on Lake Michigan this past summer. If you’re interested in my build blog...

    johnsnavigatorbuild.blogspot.com

    901BBCAA-9822-4270-889F-8C8A08C23339.jpgE019209B-7EBE-4593-8696-DEBBD35CA089.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Welsford Houdini or Navigator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpflorance View Post
    I too would like my next summer to have more camp cruising. But I think I need a slightly bigger boat. Pathfinder with a small cuddy might be the perfect choice.
    I also know Puffin and I have read your blog with interest! When I have more time on my hands and can consider "proper" dinghy cruising, I'll likely look at something along the lines of Pathfinder, Long Steps, etc. By then I'll know what I want much better as well. I'm worried too big a boat right now will mean more weekends spent on the trailer than in the water. I want to build a boat AND sail it.

    For the next 10-15 years I don't really see myself needing a larger boat than Houdini. I'm a minimalist camper and I know both my wife and I will have plenty of room sleeping aboard a Houdini (We're tiny, I'm 5'6" and she's 5'5". I can pack everything I need for a solo 3-day camping trip, including food, in a 20L backpack). I own a canoe and we've gone canoe camping quite a bit, so I'm pretty comfortable packing to minimize weight and volume. When the girls are a bit older, I can car top the Nutshell and trailer the Houdini. That way the girls can have some fun sailing on their own, and we'd make sure to sleep on shore. Beyond that, who knows? By the time they're teens life changes (again) so I'll see when I get there

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