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Thread: Phoenix III in WI

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Nah.

    She's a beaut. You'll set her right.

    Good job!

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Looking good!

    A touch of inspiration might be handy at this point:

    DSCF1794 (2).jpg

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Bravo. Looks fantastic.

    Nathan

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Looking good Matt! Feels good to get her flipped, doesn't it? I had to tune up the center board slot a bit, and it was the first time I had actually been "in" the boat. A different perspective, and gave a real feel for how roomy the interior is. What's next? Thwarts? CB case? Gunnels? It's also kinda fun that there are so many directions to go. Or like me, just shot-gun it and do a little of everything, though that left me feeling a little schizophrenic!

    Ken
    When the desire to learn is greater than the desire to win, the journey becomes the prize.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Thanks all, first thing will be to clean up all of the glue drips, a heat gun and scraper do the trick. Then I’ll probably tackle the centerboard. I have all the components cut and a layer of glass on the inside so it should go quick.

    We have a campsite right off the water booked for July at Buckthorn State park. So Tom’s inspirational picture could be a reality by then.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Buckhorn is a nice place to camp and sail--next time I go, I want to explore the west side of the peninsula a bit more, and up into the Yellow (I think?) River.

    Enjoy the rest of the build.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Here are two pictures of the center board puller/pusher up thing (I am sure there is a nautical term that escapes me). Per the plans this is how you raise and lower the centerboard.

    I was a little unsure as to how I would fabricate this. Home Depot only had aluminum stock but I found some brass at Ace hardware. I drilled two holes in the round stock and cut a groove down the center to accept the flat piece. I used two copper nails to "rivet" the parts together. I then drilled the necessary holes in two more pieces of flat stock to make the brackets.

    In all I used a cordless drill, angle grinder (hack-saw would have worked too), vise and hammer. To be honest this was pretty fun to make. It took about 2 hours, not including the 1 hour I spent standing in Ace Hardware trying to figure out how to do this. I almost bought a torch and some brazing rod, mainly because I have always wanted to learn how to do that, but I'm happy that I went with the less expensive and easier rivet method.

    I've never worked with brass stock before. It is very soft (almost too soft to drill) and is very easy to bend. I made the bends for the handle by hand.

    If I ever want to change the handle it would be pretty easy by simply cutting off the bent portion and adding a wood handle with a set-screw to hold it in place.




  8. #43
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Hi Matt, enjoy your PIII build. I'm loving my First Mate (Lillistone's sister boat, a stitch and glue). One suggestion since you're on the centerboard step... Looks like you're going with a plywood cboard which means it will float and you'll need some way to keep it down. A simple way is a string from the handle to a cleat on the aft end of the centerboard case cap. OK. So, my suggestion if you're open to it is to use a cleat like this one, a Clamcleat with roller:



    The roller helps guide the string into the cleat part. Something I wish I'd done is mount it a bit higher up on my centerboard case, and paid close attention to the angle, so that I can control the cleat while singlehanding without having to move forward. The boat sails amazing with the cboard up. You'll want to make adjustments to the board depending on your direction. If you put the cleat just so, you can leave the string long and let it dangle over the thwart into the main cabin area. Then when you need to make changes you can do so and use the flotation of the board to lock it in.

    Hope it helps!

    Paul

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Paul, Great timing on your post! I picked up a clam to mount on the aft side of my centerboard case for that very reason. I got an open one though, no roller nor plastic, to keep the line in place. My thought was that if I hit something, it will pop out easier and hopefully not break the CB. And I can use the same line to tie the handle down forward to keep the CB up.

    But I like the idea of keeping the line more secure, with a closed style, like with your roller. Have you grounded your CB and does the line still let go from the clam with that roller in place?

    Thanks
    Last edited by garyb; 03-14-2021 at 10:32 PM. Reason: Fix typo

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    I've grounded but it was in mud, not rocks, so everything just slowed down until I figured it out.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    On my brother's Phoenix III, there's no centerboard cleat--just a cheap bungee wrapped around the metal handle/rod to hold it down.

    DSCF8142.jpg

    The bungee is just girth-hitched around the handle--I forget what it hooks to on the bottom end. But you don't have to remove it or adjust it--just set it, and it holds the handle wherever you position in, while still providing enough flexibility that the board will pop up and not be damaged.

    Here's a photo of the board up--a wooden dowel/pin keeps the handle in place, with the bungee still in place. Set and forget--not fancy, but very effective.

    DSCF7999.jpg

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    I used a bungee cord on a sharpie I built that had a similar centerboard handle. I’ll probably do the same for now as I am in “git-her-done” mode. I am planning on using a cam cleat to hold the rudder up. I picked up a stainless steel one (about the same shape, almost the same wetted area as the one on the plans) for $8 at a garage sale a few years ago. I always knew it would come in handy. Now that I think about it I should probably build the rudder bracket to accept the thicker wooden one from the plans in case I decide to change it out at a later date.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    The bungee idea for CB down is clever and simple, I like it. Guessing if you hit something, it pops up too. Thanks Tom.

    For keeping CB up, Jeff made a little clip that works for him. I don't have a spot for a dowel to go through like Tom does. But a little bungee on handle down to the limber hole on forward bulkhead should work. I've just been tying it off there with line (temporarily).

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Thx Tom, that's a good bungee trick. Is there an equivalent approach for a kickup rudder so you don't break strings if you ground?

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Quote Originally Posted by fossilfool View Post
    Thx Tom, that's a good bungee trick. Is there an equivalent approach for a kickup rudder so you don't break strings if you ground?
    Yes. I've got to run at moment, so can't post in a pic but my rudder is held down by bungees (I do the same on Morbic 11 too, works good). Go here and scroll down to rudder and you can see it..

    http://brownz.com/phoenix-iii-construction-blog/

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Quote Originally Posted by garyb View Post
    Yes. I've got to run at moment, so can't post in a pic but my rudder is held down by bungees (I do the same on Morbic 11 too, works good). Go here and scroll down to rudder and you can see it..

    http://brownz.com/phoenix-iii-construction-blog/
    Simple enough. i went with 2 ball nose plungers in my latest rudder build. At the risk of breaking etiquette posting in Matt's build thread, here's a pic. (Looks like you haven't gotten to the rudder yet!) You can see the small hole where the detent goes forward of the main pivot, as well as the wear track in the paint that happened during prototyping. There is a small detent hole on each side that the ball nose pops into. Normal sailing forces haven't popped it yet but upon hitting mud it kicked up like a champ.

    DSC00608.jpg

    I love my boat and in general I think the Lillistone way is a good way, but the stock rudder upper / cheeks design in the plans is really heavy and blocky!
    Last edited by fossilfool; 03-15-2021 at 03:18 PM.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    On my brother's Phoenix III, there's no centerboard cleat--just a cheap bungee wrapped around the metal handle/rod to hold it down.

    The bungee is just girth-hitched around the handle--I forget what it hooks to on the bottom end. But you don't have to remove it or adjust it--just set it, and it holds the handle wherever you position in, while still providing enough flexibility that the board will pop up and not be damaged.

    Here's a photo of the board up--a wooden dowel/pin keeps the handle in place, with the bungee still in place. Set and forget--not fancy, but very effective.

    Tom
    I use this same bungee arrangement on my Phoenix III - works like a charm.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Many ways to skin a cat. Here's a pic of our rudder with bungees. Note all the extra purchase to pull it up, since the aft edge of this rudder doesn't extend back far enough from the pivot point to give good leverage.
    rudder_bungees.jpg

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Quote Originally Posted by fossilfool View Post
    Hi Matt, enjoy your PIII build. I'm loving my First Mate (Lillistone's sister boat, a stitch and glue). One suggestion since you're on the centerboard step... Looks like you're going with a plywood cboard which means it will float and you'll need some way to keep it down. A simple way is a string from the handle to a cleat on the aft end of the centerboard case cap. OK. So, my suggestion if you're open to it is to use a cleat like this one, a Clamcleat with roller:



    The roller helps guide the string into the cleat part. Something I wish I'd done is mount it a bit higher up on my centerboard case, and paid close attention to the angle, so that I can control the cleat while singlehanding without having to move forward. The boat sails amazing with the cboard up. You'll want to make adjustments to the board depending on your direction. If you put the cleat just so, you can leave the string long and let it dangle over the thwart into the main cabin area. Then when you need to make changes you can do so and use the flotation of the board to lock it in.

    Hope it helps!

    Paul
    Close,but no cigar.You need a CL257 which will release if you hit something.


  20. #55
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Close,but no cigar.You need a CL257 which will release if you hit something.
    John, That's great, thanks! I would want to combine it with a fairlead or mount it on a wedge shaped riser because the angle of the cboard trunk doesn't work well with the angle that the plunger wants to go when it floats, at least on my boat.

    Also I want to follow up on the rudder hold down. I mentioned using ball nose plungers and liking them. I take it back! I doubt Matt or anyone else was planning to do it, but just in case... I sailed today and this method wasn't reliable enough to recommend. In fact, it sucked! I ended up using a clamp to get through the day. Maybe I'll do the bungees now.
    IMG_1201.jpg

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Why not use the CL257?They are marketed as a rudder hold down cleat.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Quote Originally Posted by fossilfool View Post
    I ended up using a clamp to get through the day. Maybe I'll do the bungees now.
    IMG_1201.jpg
    You can never have too many clamps. I'm going to add one to my boat bag!

    James

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    IF you've seen some of the threads I've posted about trips I've done in my brother's Phoenix III, you probably won't be surprised to hear that I think you've chosen a great boat to build. Here's a couple of photos for inspiration:

    Attachment 5516

    Attachment 5517

    Enjoy your build!

    Tom
    The child in me wants to sail out and camp on that island.
    be modest, and be proud of it.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    The child in me wants to sail out and camp on that island.
    There's only about 29,999 more of those islands (they don't call it the Thirty Thousand Islands for nothing), so you probably have a lot to choose from. No need to be a child--or at least, no strict age requirement to qualify.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Regarding cam cleats and other hardware for a boat this size:
    Is there a rule of thumb regarding how to attach them? I was planning on using bolts where I can and screws where I needed too. For the screw mounts I will drill an oversized hole, fill with thickens epoxy and then drill a proper pilot hole. Can I use screws for something like a cam cleat that holds a down haul? What about for blocks on a boom? I have a few reference books but have not been able to find an answer for this.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    I've used SS screws into sapele, and haven't had a problem yet. If I do, I'll do something stronger next time.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    If the load is at right angles to the screws, they work reliably. But if the load is at an upward angle then bolts are the way to go. So for cam cleats I've sometimes used screws and never had a problem.
    -Dave

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    If the load is at right angles to the screws, they work reliably. But if the load is at an upward angle then bolts are the way to go. So for cam cleats I've sometimes used screws and never had a problem.

    Thanks, that makes sense.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Hi Matt and team,

    Every time I've put hardware through vertical grain Douglas Fir, I've regretted it. Not because it's weak but because dark gray begins to spread along the grain, as much as 2" or more away from the screw. Ugly. You can see a bit of it in the pic. When I upgraded to the Clam Cleat I handled it differently. I created a small thin piece of carbon, bolted and glued that to the cleat, then glued that to the case. I heard that aluminum only bonds with epoxy if you sand it with wet sandpaper (wet with epoxy). I don't trust aluminum - epoxy - anything, so I used screws + epoxy. I definitely trust carbon - epoxy - wood. Here's a pic and a drawing for ya! If I decide to switch to the CL257 John Meachen is recommending then I would have to remove this unit with a hot air gun. Probably won't be hard because aluminum conducts heat well. / Paul

    IMG_1208.jpg

    IMG_1211.jpg

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    You needed to apply a sealer to prevent the water getting in.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    You needed to apply a sealer to prevent the water getting in.
    Thx John, but how do you do that in practice? Would I drill larger, then fill with thickened epoxy, then drill smaller, like Matt was saying? Or Q tip on some liquid epoxy? Thanks.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Quote Originally Posted by fossilfool View Post
    Thx John, but how do you do that in practice? Would I drill larger, then fill with thickened epoxy, then drill smaller, like Matt was saying? Or Q tip on some liquid epoxy? Thanks.
    Because boat building is the most labor intensive hobby ever, my guess is that someone should use both a hole filled with epoxy and a bedding compound. Why can’t I just like video games...

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    A few drops of varnish dribbled into the holes might have worked.So might a tiny squeeze of mastic.In fact anything to discourage water getting beneath the varnish.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Matt, were your screws stainless steel?

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in WI

    Well, I did it.

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