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Thread: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

  1. #1
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    Default I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    If God will not step in and protect people in church, what is the point?

    I know, someone will say he gives us free will, but those who got shot were not exercising their free will, and it seems if God exists and has any control of anything, He would protect those worshiping him from the free will of others.

    Isn't 'free will' just another way of saying He has not control over anything?
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    man where is jimd when you really need him? i think i shall to a presbyterian god, 'oh where is jimd?'
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    We kinda went through this, for all that you didn't find it convincing that time. Look up the Charleston thread.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    "Free Will" is a convenient excuse, as is having an invisible enemy to go along with your invisible friend who is supposedly omnipotent.
    Steve

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    If God will not step in and protect people in church, what is the point?
    He sent the armed neighbor over to put an end to it.
    TZ
    "One can say with certainty that he is not with us at present. It is worth adding, however, that he himself did not always understand what time ought to be considered the present." - Laurus, Eugene Vodolazkin.

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    God loves watching babies and pregnant woman get shot, must be a special thrill for it to happen in church when people are praying to him. And how they must have prayed for their lives as the bullets smashed skulls and organs send blood and meat spraying across the aisles, how they must have prayed cowering among the screaming dying children.... Hell of a guy
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Strap Jesus!!!
    Study Peace

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Y'know, I really don't think so, Paul.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Tom, whatever you argue, its from a position of dogma not reality.
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Reality is that people got killed by a nutter, my point is that there is no god.
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Tom, whatever you argue, its from a position of dogma not reality.
    No, it's from a position of the personal experience of love, within a personal experience of creation as a place which is primarily spiritual in nature, and only secondarily the matter we bump our noses and stub our toes into.

    The thinking (which can turn into "dogma") begins from that experiential point, and moves outward from there. But in none of the possible lines of discussion consistent with that originating experience of love does God get a hard-on from having babies and pregnant women getting their heads shot to pieces while in church.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Your complex circular arguments are complete crap. God is loving...yeah right. God is an excuse to do nothing or in this case did the shooter pray for success and God grant his wishes? Certainly sounds more reasonable considering this "god" has a long history of genocide, infanticide revenge etc.
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Paul, I'm not gonna do this today. It's just fine that my position didn't convince you (or others) before - it wasn't really intended to. It was intended to describe the way that folks like me actually have a consistent worldview, and to observe that isn't what the popular secular caricatures of Faith look like. I (and folks like me) find those caricatures entirely bogus and unsatisfying (or worse) too.

    I don't have new stuff to lay out since the last time, but so far as I can tell, neither has anyone else.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Get over it Tom, god is an idea in your head. It's the retreat to an idealised childhood and no less a fetish that those people whole wear adult diapers and play act being babies.
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Why so angry and disparaging, Paul? How has my description of my experience of love - and my rejection of secular caricatures of faith - hurt you?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    As Bob Dylan noted, " if god was on our side, he'd stop the next war ".

    Prayer is a useless bandwidth.
    Gerard>
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    Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    You Tom are part of the problem, not the solution. Mealy mouthed sweet talking platitudes amounting to zip issue forth from politicians, preachers and believers alike, yet children get slaughtered regardless and I am meant to nod my head in thoughtful agreement when you dish up your "we kinda went through this" as if its dealt with?
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    A lot of fear and frustration being expressed. Understandable.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    pointless arguments useless justifications complete waste of time THERE IS NO GOD OF ANY KIND Don't you all get that ? Sad really.

    Now, why someone with a gun or a pick up truck or a van full of explosives needs to kill other people is the question , and how we let it happen is another, and how we provide the means to do it is another and as sure as rain is wet it has nothing to do with gods, but a lot to do with dimwits who think there are.
    When you come to a fork in the road , take it.


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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    What problem is that, Paul?

    The problem that a guy who presently described himself as an atheist went into a church and shot about two dozen people dead? Perhaps the problem that a while back (the thread I'd referenced with my "mealy mouthed" platitudes), 9 folks were shot dead as they met in a different church, again, shot by a guy who described himself as atheist?

    Is the problem that the big ecumenical organizations of mainline Protestant Churches and the Catholic bishops (and the Pope!) regularly speak out calling for firearms legislation changes in America, and mental health supports, and etc.? They're all on record, and those organizations represent probably 75% of the folks who actually attend church regularly. So again, how are these folks part of the problem, rather than the solution?

    Perhaps you figure that orthodox and progressive versions of Christianity don't take seriously the fact that people do evil things? That there's this capacity that exists in the population, and to one degree or another exists in each of us, to do in some measure exactly what we know in our hearts we shouldn't? You figure that "mealy-mouthed" descriptions of love somehow soft-soap the existence of evil?

    Shoot, Paul (so to speak ). I thought that the Church was supposedly in the Guilt business, with all that "original sin" stuff. That the Church is too oppressive, too fixated on the depravity that our species is capable of. Grinds people into the dirt by not taking seriously enough the "good" in people. Except when it's either the structures of the Church of the members of it actually doing the bad things, of course, at which point we turn vastly more hypocritical than, say, school teachers or social workers or soccer coaches etc.

    I'm not setting out to convert you, Paul. Never been my project to do evangelism. But I'm not gonna wear the idea that somehow having a defining experience of Love makes me and people like me part of the problem. As I've said before, go visit your local formally secular community service organizations - food banks, women's shelters, soup kitchens, poverty advocacy groups, social housing organizations etc. Take a quick tally of the proportion of those volunteers who are there because they're acting out their Faith, compared with the proportion who are atheist or agnostic. Then compare it with the proportions who declare themselves either way in your most recent census.

    Tell me again how those people working like stink to be part of the solution, while their secular neighbours trend mostly to not do that, are in fact "the problem."
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    I sympathise with your position Tom, and wish it had more substance.
    But ''people working to be part of the solution" has nothing to do with the existence of a god, let alone one that cares. It seems to me that god/s are being touted as an excuse for not taking responsibility, and has for a very long time.
    Thousands of years of propaganda however are hard to overcome.
    Last edited by skuthorp; 11-06-2017 at 03:14 PM.

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    This topic has been hashed/rehashed ad nauseum - and it comes down to a matter of 'faith' - or the lack thereof.

    You can no more prove 'no god', than any of us can prove 'is so'. That's.... faith.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Maybe George, but as to whether this 'faith' is of any actual use except in very personal positions is another matter entirely.

    About time we got over it.

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Gosh, I've never heard this issue come up before...
    Well, Mr. Botard, do you still deny all rhinocerotic evidence?

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Why so angry and disparaging, Paul? How has my description of my experience of love - and my rejection of secular caricatures of faith - hurt you?
    A lot of believers want to force their beliefs on the rest of through laws. That makes their beliefs our problem.

    If people have free will, and he cannot, or will not, interfere ever, then there's no way he can ever answer a prayer. I expect the people in those churches did a LOT of praying as the bullets flew.

    You are entitled to your faith and to live your life by it. I am entitled to not have your faith forced on me, or, IMO, pay higher taxes because the church pays none.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    One thing I have learned is that at absolute base those with faith and those without have no common ground on the subject. Bit like two plugs with different pin and socket patterns.
    My last word on this on the thread.

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    This is the eternal problem of theodicy, a question as old as human belief in gods, for which nobody has been able to come up with a universally-satisfactory answer in 4000 years and longer. The most succinct statement of the problem is attributed to Epicurus about 2300 years ago.

    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Maybe George, but as to whether this 'faith' is of any actual use except in very personal positions is another matter entirely.

    About time we got over it.
    Faith is always 'personal'. What are you on about???

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    A lot of believers want to force their beliefs on the rest of through laws. That makes their beliefs our problem.

    If people have free will, and he cannot, or will not, interfere ever, then there's no way he can ever answer a prayer. I expect the people in those churches did a LOT of praying as the bullets flew.

    You are entitled to your faith and to live your life by it. I am entitled to not have your faith forced on me, or, IMO, pay higher taxes because the church pays none.
    Oh, I see - you're unhappy about your taxes. All becomes clear.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    I can't transpose a spiritual experience to someone else, can't somehow have your consciousness jump into my body for a few minutes. I have no freaking idea why some of us have these numinous experiences, and others don't - or why for some people they are so much more vivid. It just is that way.

    Herself talks about coaching a particular 1st year student on a term paper - the poor girl just couldn't "get it." Not only couldn't understand how to tell if the paper's structure and flow was getting better, but even more ... had no idea at all about what it meant to "interpret" or "analyse" a novel rather than just "describe" it. The kid would listen, but just stare blankly and describe the text again, with different words. Worked like a dog to turn in a C- paper. She was crushed and it wasn't her fault, and it sucked that she needed the course. But she just wasn't wired that way. Other people are wired to see geometric proofs, or just know how to dance ...

    But not all of us.

    Not being able to do a thing doesn't make someone a defective human, and being able to do a thing doesn't make one a superior human. But we really can't claim that someone's experience - even if we can't access or understand it - doesn't exist. I can't pretend that there aren't magnificent dancers out there, who have access to something I just can't do. My body can burp and wiggle a bit in rhythm, but even the most charitable wouldn't exactly call it "dance." Now it's a shame; it's an obvious gap in how I'm human compared with some others. But I can do other stuff. It's no big deal, except if I claim that the actual dancers can't dance, and they claim that because I can't that I'm not just as decent a human as them.

    IMO this is that. I dunno why it is, but it is.
    Last edited by TomF; 11-06-2017 at 03:40 PM.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    I believe in nothing George, and I get along fine without a sop.
    But I have posted elsewhere about the matter of believers and non believers having no common ground on the subject.

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Other people are wired to see geometric proofs, or just know how to dance ... But not all of us.
    A personal example. I was introduced to geometric proofs in eighth grade, and the entire concept; the orderly series of steps with an irrefutable reason for each one, getting you from the obvious things you already know way, way out into unknown territory, all clear and shining and precise . . . Quite the revelation, probably the biggest AHA! moment I ever had in school. The lights came on, the clouds parted, the angels sang (well maybe not quite, but you get the idea) But I am probably the most inept dancer you will ever find - not unusually clumsy in other things, but dancing? Oy.

    But everybody can see the dancers doing their thing.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Yeah, dancers are obvious. Maybe it's more like W.H. Auden or Charlie Parker. Not a one of us can repeat what they've done, nor have we any real idea how they did it. They couldn't define it either. But that utterly defining and "real" aspect of them emerged somehow; we have the proof on paper and in recordings.

    But their capacity would have been as every bit as "real" if Auden had never set anything to paper, or Bird had never picked up his horn. The capacity would have been hidden, unavailable to us, but they'd still have been artists. Auden would still have been hearing the words in his head/heart, Parker feeling where the saxophone line wanted to go. It's just that the proof of what they were capable of wouldn't have been public and evident, and they'd otherwise have had nothing remarkable to distinguish them from the schlubs sitting next to them on the bus.

    What if Parker had passed on his genes to a son who was profoundly autistic? A musical genius, whose musicianship remained completely in his interior life? Would the boy's own experience of ecstasy and transport have been any less "real" than Bird's, for all that his father had displayed the gift to us all, yet his son could not?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Um - well, maybe. But those who have religious experiences claim - are completely convinced, if I understand you correctly, as sure of it as they are of anything - that the experience is not just something internally generated, like Charlie Parker's music, but a connection to something external and real. I do not doubt in the slightest you have the experiences you claim. I doubt profoundly that they mean what you think they mean. I could be wrong.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings

    Fair enough. As ever, we're back at Aristotle/Plato. I figure it's "out there," and you figure it's "in there."
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: I have ti ask in regards to church shootings



    As I have posted before Tom I toohad a 'revelation' but mine was purely secular……….figures…….

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