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Thread: efficiency of the sprit rig

  1. #141
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    To keep the sail shape when reefed you will almost certainly need to move the snotter lower on the mast. To make the sprit peak easy to handle you will want a peak pennant. To make it easy to get in and out of the boat without having to lace or fasten the sail to hoops you may want a brailing topping lift. However, at CWB where the boat stays overboard the sail can stay on the mast as long as it has a cover, so it can go on hoops or leave the lacing in place. Hardware to let sails be removed from hoops is available from Lowell. You can also turn lacing into toggled diagonal robands If the sail is loose footed the sail can go into a bag right up on the mast. Pieces I have done for WB and for SCM on sprit rigging cover ways to do this.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
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  2. #142
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    I had in mind something that would resemble a Woods Hole spritsail boat, but longer and lighter, and with a boom instead of a loose-footed sail.



    https://smallboatsmonthly.com/articl...pritsail-boat/

    My boat has the same beam as the boat above, but is a couple feet longer, somewhat lighter, and has a straighter run.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    I use the brailing line with my ducker rigs; run to a bee out on the boom, distance a little less than the distance from tack to throat. But for a CWB boat where the boat will live overboard you'll not need to make it easy to pull the rig. A loose footed sail on the boom will allow it to be unbent at the clew and bundled in a bag at the tack without unlacing the sail from the mast. I'd still use a peak pennant as it will make the peak controllable and I might have a brall to the mast after unbending the clew. The reason for shifting the snotter down is that often when reefing you use the sail shape.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  4. #144
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    I use the brailing line with my ducker rigs; run to a bee out on the boom, distance a little less than the distance from tack to throat. But for a CWB boat where the boat will live overboard you'll not need to make it easy to pull the rig. A loose footed sail on the boom will allow it to be unbent at the clew and bundled in a bag at the tack without unlacing the sail from the mast. I'd still use a peak pennant as it will make the peak controllable and I might have a brall to the mast after unbending the clew. The reason for shifting the snotter down is that often when reefing you use the sail shape.
    Our Woods Hole boat uses two different thumbs for the snotter at different levels, one for the full sail and one for the reefed sail. For some reason, we can never keep a pennant on the sail. I've explained that it's not a decoration but part of the rigging, but they keep getting pulled off and not put back on.

  5. #145
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Well indeed, that is a very different boat from a Melonseed, at least in terms of freeboard. Having the boat so open will make managing the rig much easier. Though with a much lighter boat and big sail, you'll need to. Will be very good for sail training. A gaff will add more weight aloft, even with the other options it may need a crew of three to hold it down in more than a light breeze. Again, good for training.


    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I had in mind something that would resemble a Woods Hole spritsail boat, but longer and lighter, and with a boom instead of a loose-footed sail.



    https://smallboatsmonthly.com/articl...pritsail-boat/

    My boat has the same beam as the boat above, but is a couple feet longer, somewhat lighter, and has a straighter run.

  6. #146
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeInHand View Post
    Well indeed, that is a very different boat from a Melonseed, at least in terms of freeboard. Having the boat so open will make managing the rig much easier. Though with a much lighter boat and big sail, you'll need to. Will be very good for sail training. A gaff will add more weight aloft, even with the other options it may need a crew of three to hold it down in more than a light breeze. Again, good for training.
    I might compromise a bit and have it decked in such a way that the crew can hike more easily than on a Woods Hole boat, but I do like the long cockpit.

  7. #147
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Our Woods Hole boat uses two different thumbs for the snotter at different levels, one for the full sail and one for the reefed sail. For some reason, we can never keep a pennant on the sail. I've explained that it's not a decoration but part of the rigging, but they keep getting pulled off and not put back on.
    Unless you have a little cleat on the sprit about a third of the way down or so, you'll need to teach the users how to tie a rolling hitch!
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  8. #148
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Unless you have a little cleat on the sprit about a third of the way down or so, you'll need to teach the users how to tie a rolling hitch!
    One of my favorite knots!

    The thumbs on the mast allow us to move the attachment for the snotter down when we reef.
    Last edited by johnw; 12-02-2017 at 12:04 PM.

  9. #149
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Attachment 5733

    So, more like this? I didn't raise the tack very much. Don't want to lose a lot of sail area. What is your opinion on battens? I wouldn't mind having a bit of roach.
    Of the rigs you've drawn John I find this the most attractive in terms of general proportion. Regarding function I'm still on the fence, sprit vs lug. But it is refreshing to hear some more discussion of the spritsail.
    Eric

  10. #150
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    Of the rigs you've drawn John I find this the most attractive in terms of general proportion. Regarding function I'm still on the fence, sprit vs lug. But it is refreshing to hear some more discussion of the spritsail.
    Eric
    One reason for the boom is that I think it's easier for people to see whether they're sheeting the sail right. People just aren't used to thinking about a mainsail as sheeting like a jib, which you have to do with the loose-footed spritsail.

    Honestly, I know the gaff better, and I'm somewhat more comfortable with it, but I suspect the sprit has more potential.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Another reason would be that with that sail profile and without the boom, the sheet would have to lead to a spot several feet aft of the transom. That sail absolutely has to have a boom of some sort.

  12. #152
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    Another reason would be that with that sail profile and without the boom, the sheet would have to lead to a spot several feet aft of the transom. That sail absolutely has to have a boom of some sort.
    Of course, I would design a boomless sail differently. The Woods Hole boats developed high-aspect rigs because of the problem you describe.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    A reason to have sprit rig is the simplicity: don't hoist it but tie it to the mast and then you are sailing when you stick in the sprit. You want to wrap it around the mast, so use soft cloth and no battens. I try to talk customers out of brailing lines because they have a habit of spoiling the leech. Or leach. Dunno. If you want battens, I do, balanced lug, standing lug or gaff is fine. I am happy to build them all.
    Www.oarandsail.nl

  14. #154
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    A reason to have sprit rig is the simplicity: don't hoist it but tie it to the mast and then you are sailing when you stick in the sprit. You want to wrap it around the mast, so use soft cloth and no battens. I try to talk customers out of brailing lines because they have a habit of spoiling the leech. Or leach. Dunno. If you want battens, I do, balanced lug, standing lug or gaff is fine. I am happy to build them all.
    Www.oarandsail.nl
    Yes, that's why I drew the rig with no roach on the leach. I suppose if you had a small enough and slick enough brailing line, it wouldn't spoil the leach, but I've yet to see one that worked that way. Anyhow, with a boom, I'm not so sure the brailing would work.

  15. #155
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    if you had a small enough and slick enough brailing line, it wouldn't spoil the leach, but I've yet to see one that worked that way.
    Now you have.

    Sail%20Rig%203%20post.jpg

    Sail%20Rig%201%20post.jpg

  16. #156
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Thanks! How big is the grommet, and how big is the line? Is it a slick Nylon?

  17. #157
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    How about a sprit boom or wishboom?

    In light winds our leech gets spoiled a bit by the brailing line, but when the wind picks up we do fine.



    We went down several line sizes from what was in this this picture to 3mm hemp I believe, from R&W Rope. Still some work to do to get a slippery block or fairlead at the top of the mast.



    P14 Spritsail copy.jpg
    Last edited by signalcharlie; 01-04-2018 at 06:12 PM.

  18. #158
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by signalcharlie View Post
    How about a sprit boom or wishboom?

    In light winds our leech gets spoiled a bit by the brailing line, but when the wind picks up we do fine.



    We went down several line sizes from what was in this this picture to 3mm hemp I believe, from R&W Rope. Still some work to do to get a slippery block or fairlead at the top of the mast.



    P14 Spritsail copy.jpg
    I've sailed this boat quite a bit:



    The problem with a sprit boom is that in light air, its weight pushes it back, and it flattens the sail. That's why I didn't incorporate on on the rig I designed for this boat.

  19. #159
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    It's a #0 spur grommet put through the panel fabric and a couple small patches (grommets require a certain amount of cloth thickness to set properly, and we want to distribute the stress over a broader area). I'm thinking the line was a 5/32 yacht braid, but don't remember for sure. There really is no reason to worry too much about it being slick or brail lines ruining the leech shape. In decent air the leech will be just fine as long as you back off the line a bit and don't go nuts on line weight and have cut the leech properly in the first place.

  20. #160
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    I think I have mostly used that nice sailmakers leech line, maybe 1/8" for brail lines. I don't bother with block, just a stainless or bronze ring is plenty good enough. I tie the bitter end to the tack grommet setting it up with needed slack. When I brail the sail I just take the slack doubled and clove it around the sail and sprit. For the boomed sprits the brail line goes through a bee hole on the underside of the boom, and a tug pulls the boom, the sprit and the sail together in a bundle on the mast.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  21. #161
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  22. #162
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    A reason to have sprit rig is the simplicity: don't hoist it but tie it to the mast and then you are sailing when you stick in the sprit. You want to wrap it around the mast, so use soft cloth and no battens. I try to talk customers out of brailing lines because they have a habit of spoiling the leech. Or leach. Dunno. If you want battens, I do, balanced lug, standing lug or gaff is fine. I am happy to build them all.
    Www.oarandsail.nl
    I agree, simple to reef, simple to ehm "brail" without having to brail it.
    I like to wrap the sail around itself rather than around the mast though. Keeps the jib halyard free and it comes free much faster when it's time to go sailing again.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student, a rigger apprentice and Journeyman http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/

  23. #163
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by signalcharlie View Post
    How about a sprit boom or wishboom?

    In light winds our leech gets spoiled a bit by the brailing line, but when the wind picks up we do fine.


    I think the sheeting point may be a bigger problem for you.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student, a rigger apprentice and Journeyman http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/

  24. #164
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Great blog Mats which google translated nicely for me

  25. #165
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    Arrow Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    P1030477.jpg Have a look at the lines in the main for reefing: They go from the the leech to a turtleblock on the end of the boom to the mast and thereby pulling the leech out of shape. You can see the creases. This is a new set of sails for a Maurice Griffiths boat and the owner was first dismayed but later understood how to correct it.

  26. #166
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    I agree with the comments made earlier by Jame McMullen regarding the messing around required when reefing a spritsail on the water - but Ben Fuller has forgotten more than most of us will ever know about handling this rig. Nothing is ever perfect, and I tend to encourage the inexperienced sailor to use a Balance Lug or even a Standing Lug if they want to follow a more-or-less traditional path. However, for myself, I am very happy with the Sprit Rig for a range of reasons that I won't bore you with here.



    This photo shows an example of my "Phoenix III" design (built by Paul Hernes) and for a simple sail-and-oar boat, this rig propels her rapidly - including hard on the wind. Yes, the jib sheet lead could come forward a little, but she is looking fine for a recreational boat which carries no standing rigging.
    Last edited by Ross Lillistone; 01-05-2018 at 03:31 PM.

  27. #167
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    [QUOTE I think the sheeting point may be a bigger problem for you.

    /Mats[/QUOTE]

    Most of the American sprit rigged sailing workboats were long enough to be able to get a nice angle for sheeting. Have a look at the ones from the Chesapeake, for example. Most dories had relatively short footed sails that allowed aftersheeting. The biggest problem was double enders like peapods which have terrible sheeting angles but rowed mostly upwind ( row in the morning when it was calm, set the rig to get home in the afternoon) or had booms like duckers.
    Ben Fuller
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  28. #168
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Lillistone View Post
    I agree with the comments made earlier by Jame McMullen regarding the messing around required when reefing a spritsail on the water
    I see this repetedly, without any kind of explanation on why it would be difficult.
    My experience tells me different, but as I have said in different places, my experiense is limited to about 6 m/19 ft long boats with a sprit main and a staysail. And no centerboard, if that makes a difference.
    Reefing a spritsail on the hmm about five boats I've done it on, single handed, out in the sea, took me about 1 min. The first time perhaps a wee bit longer, when I had no experience with spritsails.
    Some boats have fancy ways of setting up the sprit, that don't add any functionality as far as I see it, and those may make it more cumbersome, other in my view unnecessary or even stupid add-ons may also make it more difficult.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student, a rigger apprentice and Journeyman http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/

  29. #169
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Ross, I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you find the thread?

  30. #170
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by mohsart View Post
    I see this repetedly, without any kind of explanation on why it would be difficult.
    My experience tells me different, but as I have said in different places, my experiense is limited to about 6 m/19 ft long boats with a sprit main and a staysail. And no centerboard, if that makes a difference.
    Reefing a spritsail on the hmm about five boats I've done it on, single handed, out in the sea, took me about 1 min. The first time perhaps a wee bit longer, when I had no experience with spritsails.
    Some boats have fancy ways of setting up the sprit, that don't add any functionality as far as I see it, and those may make it more cumbersome, other in my view unnecessary or even stupid add-ons may also make it more difficult.

    /Mats
    Do you just loosen the snotter when you reef, or shift it to a different point on the mast?

  31. #171
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Do you just loosen the snotter when you reef, or shift it to a different point on the mast?
    Typically, on a rig design I prefer, I pull down the snotter a bit lower than what is needed and lower the sail about as much. Then I retie the clew and tack points and hoist the sail and push up the snotter.
    In reality I would probably pull down the tack as the last step, but that's a detail.
    After this the sail is reefed already, and I can take my time tying up the slack with the reef bands.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student, a rigger apprentice and Journeyman http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/

  32. #172
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Todd, I should not have made a public comment, and for having done so, I sincerely apologise. I have removed my reference to you from the post.

    The appropriate thing for me to have done would have been to send you a private message at the time. Karma got me by making my illustration in the post disappear due to third-party photo posting issues with Photobucket, so I ended up with a well-deserved helping of egg on my face.

    The photo of the sprit rig is now back up in post #166.

    I have sent you a private message via the forum.
    Last edited by Ross Lillistone; 01-05-2018 at 04:23 PM.

  33. #173
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    [QUOTE I think the sheeting point may be a bigger problem for you.

    /Mats

    Several of my designs make provision for the sprit mainsail to be boomless or boomed. At the design stage the sheeting angles were carefully considered, and the results are satisfactory as far as I am concerned. One of the benefits gained by using a boom on my boats is that the foot of the main can be set higher on the mast. But for open water work, the boomless arrangement is safer, and more simple.

    The photo below shows a boomless "Phoenix III" tacking away from a "Pooduck Skiff".


  34. #174
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Lillistone View Post
    Several of my designs make provision for the sprit mainsail to be boomless or boomed. At the design stage the sheeting angles were carefully considered, and the results are satisfactory as far as I am concerned. One of the benefits gained by using a boom on my boats is that the foot of the main can be set higher on the mast. But for open water work, the boomless arrangement is safer, and more simple.
    Sorry but I don't get what you are replying to

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student, a rigger apprentice and Journeyman http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/

  35. #175
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    Default Re: efficiency of the sprit rig

    It was just in relation to the comment made by Ben Fuller in post #167.

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