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Thread: 3M curing question!

  1. #1
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    Default 3M curing question!

    I'm planning on gluing the chines and the sides to the transom for my LYS this weekend. 3m 5200 directions say to apply in at least 40*, and to cure at 70* for up to 7 days.

    It's getting cold in upstate New York, and my garage is not insulted or heated. Do I need to buy or borrow a heater for the garage? If I do, and run the heater for 48 hours, will that be enough to cure the 3M 5200? I don't want to run a kerosene or propane heater for a full week.

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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Send the 5200 to hell to warm up, where it belongs!

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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Do the plans specify 5200? Seems an odd choice for gluing up a plywood boat.

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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Quote Originally Posted by willin woodworks View Post
    Do the plans specify 5200? Seems an odd choice for gluing up a plywood boat.
    3M 5200 or Sikaflex 291. I bought a couple tubes of Sikaflex at Westmarine for $26 per tube. I found 3M online for $10 per tube.

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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    LYS? Oh, Lumberyard Skiff. Well, the WB link says they use Sikaflex and 3M 5200 is pretty darned close to the same thing.

    There are two things from organic chemistry to worry about that I recall, Q-10 and activation energy. One says that for every 10 degrees drop in temperature, the cure time doubles, and the other says that at a certain temperature it aint never gonna happen. So at 40 it is dead slow and below that you have to wait for it to warm up. On the plus side, you have all the time in the world to work with it before it sets up. Cold won't ruin the stuff, it will just delay the cure. You can work around that.

    The goo might be rather thick and hard to work with if it is too cold, so you might need to warm the tubes before applying it. Then when you are through working for the day, throw a plastic sheet over the boat and put a heater under it.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    I'd use thickened cold cure epoxy.


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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    LYS? Oh, Lumberyard Skiff. Well, the WB link says they use Sikaflex and 3M 5200 is pretty darned close to the same thing.

    There are two things from organic chemistry to worry about that I recall, Q-10 and activation energy. One says that for every 10 degrees drop in temperature, the cure time doubles, and the other says that at a certain temperature it aint never gonna happen. So at 40 it is dead slow and below that you have to wait for it to warm up. On the plus side, you have all the time in the world to work with it before it sets up. Cold won't ruin the stuff, it will just delay the cure. You can work around that.

    The goo might be rather thick and hard to work with if it is too cold, so you might need to warm the tubes before applying it. Then when you are through working for the day, throw a plastic sheet over the boat and put a heater under it.

    Thank you!

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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    I'd use thickened cold cure epoxy.

    It does say that the epoxy will cure at 35°F. It is going to set up a lot stiffer, and less flexible than the PU, neither of which is a problem in a good joint. The adhesive/sealant is a lot easier to use and has adequate strength and stiffness for the application. If the shop is well below 35, the only worry is whether the epoxy will run before it cures. Once it warm up, it will kick. Either the epoxy or PU should work. The epoxy will set up a lot sooner. I am assuming that the joints are held by fasteners so the set time for adhesives is not critical. If you have to clamp until it sets up, then the epoxy is going to help a lot.

    My main reason for chiming in again is that the OP asked how long he would have to keep it warm. I looked at the 3M 5200 tds (link below) and was a bit surprised at the 30 hour open time at 70F. It also says 4 hours at 90% RH and 90°. No telling how much difference is due to humidity and how much to temp, but if it is 40F and dry, it will be a very long time. Full cure takes 5 days at 70°F and 50% RH, but handling strength should not take more than 48 hours at 70F. I wouldn't try to heat the whole shop. I would go with a plastic 'tent' and goose it up nice and warm for at least 8 hours once you really need set the glue. As long as the tacky seam isn't causing a problem, it can wait.

    https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/...-tech-data.pdf
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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Devil Sperm kicks faster if you wet it .

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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    3M 5200 requires moisture to cure. Depending on temp, thickness and moisture levels, 5200 can take a long time to fully cure. The colder it gets, the slower the cure will be. And as the gick gets colder, I suspect it will get more difficult to apply and get messier. And as anybody who has worked with it knows right well, application of 5200 is a sticky, messy project ("How did I get 5200 way over here? I wasn't anywhere near it with the caulking gun!")

    If you are pushing the boundaries of what the directions spec out, you might want to call the 3M technical support.

    General Help/Support: https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/help-center/
    Marine Product Support: https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/marine-us/support/

    For 5200, you probably want this group (or you can send them a message via the above marine support link):

    Adhesives, Sealants and Masking Tapes

    Address
    3M Company
    3M Industrial Adhesives & Tapes
    3M Center
    St. Paul, MN 55144-1000, USA
    Phone: 1-800-831-0658
    Call Monday – Friday
    8AM to 5PM Central Time

    Edited to Note: 3m does make a "Fast Cure" flavor of 5200. I suspect you trade off a little strength for a faster cure. You might want to look at that.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  11. #11
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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    You could just go ahead and use the 5200. That way you receive an automatic lifetime membership in the club that says they'll never use it again.

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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Devil Sperm kicks faster if you wet it .
    Yup. Shoulda explained it more plainly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    3M 5200 requires moisture to cure.
    'swhat Bruce said. Only he said it better. I did mention that you will pro'ly need to warm it up a little.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    You could just go ahead and use the 5200. That way you receive an automatic lifetime membership in the club that says they'll never use it again.
    Well, it all depends on the user. I was helping out on one of the family boat building things on the Mall in DC one weekend where about a dozen groups slathered Sikaflex on the seams of their Bevins Skiffs. Everyone got a dark green t-shirt to wear. When they finished, the shirts varied from spotless to all white front and back. Some folks have the knack to handle the stuff and some should avoid it at all cost. So you're right -- or wrong, depends on the individual. The stuff can be user vicious. YRMV
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  13. #13
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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    I have a friend who's an avid racer. He bedded a sheet cleat in 5200 and forgot to put the bolts in. Some time later he was in a race and afterwards realized his mistake. The cleat had not pulled loose. I have a lot of respect for the stuff, think of it as liquid snow tire, but don't enjoy using it.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Devil Sperm kicks faster if you wet it .

    At the expense of [possibly high] losses of strength and/or adhesion.

    The space shuttles tiles were/are affixed with 5200s Harvard-edjimicated cousin. No the construction process, workers on the tile crews were fired when caught "improving" things by spitting in the gick to make it cure faster.

    The stuff needs the right amount of [ambient] moisture to cure. Not wet.

    Whether that loss of strength is significant enough to affect one's particular application is natch, dependent upon the application.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Just a note, Chowda: 5200 is a gooey, messy glue that gets everywhere. Havel lots of paper towels handy and be deliberate with the caulking gun.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Instead of a garage heater, find an electric blanket. That way you’re heating what needs to be heated, and not heating ambient air.
    Heute ist so ein schöne Tag...

  17. #17
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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Just a note, Chowda: 5200 is a gooey, messy glue that gets everywhere. Havel lots of paper towels handy and be deliberate with the caulking gun.

    Kevin
    Ain't it the truth. Damn stuff will wind up everywhere but where you want it. You'll be scraping it out of the glove box in your truck...

    I would use epoxy. Not a big fan of deviating from the builders plans but 5200 is awful stuff.
    A cheapo electric blanket is a handy way to heat the work.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    +1, 'Moisture Activated Cure
    I would not be concerned about curing when temps are within the suggested range or close, BUT if the humidity is too low that is a problem.

    3M 5200 Tech Data Sheet:
    http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/4...-and-21450.pdf
    This is the first lesson ye should learn: There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.
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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Quote Originally Posted by George Ray View Post
    +1, 'Moisture Activated Cure
    I would not be concerned about curing when temps are within the suggested range or close, BUT if the humidity is too low that is a problem.

    3M 5200 Tech Data Sheet:
    http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/4...-and-21450.pdf
    Guy was caulking a deck with polysulphide. It was winter and he was in one of the big sheds off of Westlake. Stuff was not going off so he put in heaters. did not help in fact seemed to slow down curing. I have heard that spraying with water helps more than anything...but you are on your own.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Thanks for all of the posts!

    I was going to tent with a small heater. At a party on Friday someone suggested leaving the door between my house and garage open. The next week the daily high's are around 50 and the low's around 30-40. I'm going to leave the door open for the next three days and that should work.


    garage door open heat.jpg

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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Use masking tape along each side of every seam. Pull the tape when done fiddling with it. Do not let the tape stay on with the curing goop. Use lots-o-tape to make clean-up easier. Don't touch the goop after you pull the tape.

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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    And wear gloves.

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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    If you call someone on the phone,you'll get some on their ear.
    R
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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Quote Originally Posted by CHOWDAINABREADBOWL View Post
    Thanks for all of the posts!

    I was going to tent with a small heater. At a party on Friday someone suggested leaving the door between my house and garage open. The next week the daily high's are around 50 and the low's around 30-40. I'm going to leave the door open for the next three days and that should work.

    Lots of 5200 will have a pretty strong smell. Might get some folks in the house a bit upset.

    To add to the cautions - the moment you open the tube, 5200 will teleport to places you'd never suspect.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: 3M curing question!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Williamson View Post
    If you call someone on the phone,you'll get some on their ear.
    R

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