Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    24

    Smile Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    After searching for suitable plans re a trailerable launch (displacement hull, canvas cabin top 4 ft 6” -5 ft high, low free board, shallow draft, low power, say 10hp max) to be used on protected waters , I stumbled on traditional Chinese boats as used on West Lake, Shanghai .
    I like the forward cockpit and the aft raised deck. From what I detect, tourists to China are requested to put their behinds on the cockpit benches and then move sideways into the ‘cabin’, like in church. Makes perfect sense to me. (Not worried about a self draining cockpit)
    Specifically fond of the helmsman position : either elevated (standing) position to see over the canopy, or inside (under canvas roof, looking forward (extended tiller)

    But the standard version is obviously way too big. (See photo)

    However, I found a smaller version with the helmsman standing in a small aft cockpit--just as good. (see two other photos below of smaller boats, one with with green, leafy decorations). Estimate it to be about 18 feet with a 5-6 ft beam. Guess one can just add some light weight rails to the cockpit to get the same concept. (Would get rid of the seemingly heavy cabin/house and replace it with a canvas roof on light frame when using plywood, and if really needed, some ballast)

    It seems as though the position of the maximum beam (width) is more or less at the aft end of the ‘cabin’, in front of the sculling position, and not amidships as usual. The cabin/house is in fact a bit wider aft than in front. Lots of buoyancy aft, and I think this contributes to an elegant ‘nose down’ ride. Looks like the hull is a slight 'off centre' rocker, but of that I am not sure at all.

    Question: Can anyone indicate what the closest comparable ‘western-internet available’ hull would be – for this smaller version? Is it just a bigger punt-hull, or maybe a sampan? Both with wider hulls aft ? What does it look like below the water line? (Keeping in mind weight distribution and fact that traditional boats are built with heavy planking and not lightweight plywood)

    I know one can’t just transplant a ' top-half' concept of one boat unto another hull , just taking a long shot here , looking for a starting point somewhere. Not interested in heavy, hi- tech, fan tail launch designs.

    Michalak’s Casa AF4 fits the bill in terms of dimensions, weight and (smaller) canopy, but it is a planing hull with a conventional sharp bow.

    Thanks for bearing with me. Any input or advise will be appreciated. Talking me out of it also.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    26,667

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    If it were me I would peruse plans for prams/scows/punts/garveys and go with whichever one would be easiest to dress up as Chinese. Outboard punt designs will be faster but tend to have flatter sheers. Sailboats such as the SF Pelican might be more appealing but keep in mind the hulls are designed for sailing more than motoring.

    Doug Hylan's might take more power than you have in mind.

    http://www.dhylanboats.com/design/pl..._garvey_plans/


    Then there's the SF Pelican, less all the sailing bits and cabin

    Last edited by JimD; 11-01-2017 at 04:19 PM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,209

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    There's a garvey about the size you want in American Small Sailing Craft.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    10,553

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    A book that is packed with both design and practical imformation on the subject you are asking about is "Junks and Sampans of the Yangtze by G.R.G. Worcester"
    I have it in my library and have found it to be the best book on the subject I have ever read.
    https://www.amazon.com/Junks-Sampans.../dp/0870213350
    Jay

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Whangarei New Zealand
    Posts
    425

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mich View Post
    After searching for suitable plans re a trailerable launch (displacement hull, canvas cabin top 4 ft 6” -5 ft high, low free board, shallow draft, low power, say 10hp max) to be used on protected waters , I stumbled on traditional Chinese boats as used on West Lake, Shanghai .
    I like the forward cockpit and the aft raised deck. From what I detect, tourists to China are requested to put their behinds on the cockpit benches and then move sideways into the ‘cabin’, like in church. Makes perfect sense to me. (Not worried about a self draining cockpit)
    Specifically fond of the helmsman position : either elevated (standing) position to see over the canopy, or inside (under canvas roof, looking forward (extended tiller)

    But the standard version is obviously way too big. (See photo)

    However, I found a smaller version with the helmsman standing in a small aft cockpit--just as good. (see two other photos below of smaller boats, one with with green, leafy decorations). Estimate it to be about 18 feet with a 5-6 ft beam. Guess one can just add some light weight rails to the cockpit to get the same concept. (Would get rid of the seemingly heavy cabin/house and replace it with a canvas roof on light frame when using plywood, and if really needed, some ballast)




    It seems as though the position of the maximum beam (width) is more or less at the aft end of the ‘cabin’, in front of the sculling position, and not amidships as usual. The cabin/house is in fact a bit wider aft than in front. Lots of buoyancy aft, and I think this contributes to an elegant ‘nose down’ ride. Looks like the hull is a slight 'off centre' rocker, but of that I am not sure at all.

    Question: Can anyone indicate what the closest comparable ‘western-internet available’ hull would be – for this smaller version? Is it just a bigger punt-hull, or maybe a sampan? Both with wider hulls aft ? What does it look like below the water line? (Keeping in mind weight distribution and fact that traditional boats are built with heavy planking and not lightweight plywood)

    I know one can’t just transplant a ' top-half' concept of one boat unto another hull , just taking a long shot here , looking for a starting point somewhere. Not interested in heavy, hi- tech, fan tail launch designs.

    Michalak’s Casa AF4 fits the bill in terms of dimensions, weight and (smaller) canopy, but it is a planing hull with a conventional sharp bow.

    Thanks for bearing with me. Any input or advise will be appreciated. Talking me out of it also.

    Go with Michalak plans.
    Having spent many years looking into and learning about far Eastern watercraft, I think it is too easy to misinterpret waterline beam proportions and fineness of bow sections.

    Look at at the drawings in Worcester's Junks and Sampans ( as Jay suggests) and you will see that pram bows and wide splayed waterlines at the stern are not given features.

    Low power characteristics on traditional craft determined lines and trim more than style.

    Look at underwater lines of post WW2 Chinese boats and see that with the increase in propulsion power the lines change to become much like Western boats.
    Older Sampans propelled by human arm power (in the region of 1/2 to 1 hp) were less beamy and had higher L:B ratios than motor power craft.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    S.W. Florida
    Posts
    2,011

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    Pete Culler designed an 11 ft (3.35 m) sampan, rowing and sailing versions.







    [11' sampan] "Pine would be used for the bow, stern, risers, and seats; white oak for the frames, chines, and stern and bow seat supports;and cedar for side and bottom planking. This was based largely on what is available in the northeast U.S. Your locale may have different species traditionally used for boatbuilding stock, but if you keep in mind lightness with strength and durability, plus good holding for fastenings, you should do fine with what is available locally."
    ~~~~~ Pete Culler, Skiffs & Schooners

    Hope the voyage is a long one.
    May there be many a summer morning when,
    with what pleasure, what joy,
    you come into harbors seen for the first time...

    Ithaka, by Cavafy
    (Keeley - Sherrard translation)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    24

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    Thanks everyone. Wow, what a lot of substantial info.

    The actual search was all about finding a shallow draft hull that can sustain an aft cabin/light weight shelter structure, not so much a Chinese boat. It's just personal taste, but its all about a displacement hull with forward cockpit. In any case one cannot tamper with most wooden motor designs as the forward cabins are structurally part of the bow.

    Thanks JimD and JohnW for showing the Garvey option. Saw a photo somewhere on net of a Garvey sailer with aft cabin, but can't find it now. Wide beam aft looks like she will easily carry a light weight cabin aft without sagging and stay level at hull speed, which is actually all that is needed. Not fond of boats with motor and passengers all positioned aft with bow pointing upwards and cabin spoiling the view. But of course in another context and bigger waters they are fun also. Just not sure about the ease of Garvey building. Thinking to order the study plans at least.

    That Pete Culler design sure is a beautiful thing, Sharpiefan, the beam just looks a bit narrow.

    And Jay Greer, now I'll first have to read yet another very nice book before continuing. And I've just de-junked my garage to start building. Sh*t happens. Looks like a very good book to have

    Thanks for the warning, Lugalong. For a while I tried exactly that: to determine the 3d dimensions of those Chinese hulls by close examination of available photo's and models. It seems to be very simple. The bottom seems to be a plank of constant width, slightly narrower forward, and also a slight rocker. Getting that flare and the sheer of the sides is difficult, but possible. Built a cereal box model or two, but then decided the risk is not worth it, dunno what I'm doing. And as you say, the eastern boats has 'another way of thinking'. But at least it resulted in the search on this forum.

    Attached the only photo I could find of one of those hulls on dry land, just for interest's sake.
    (a even bigger version, but I think it shows universal features) Refined craftsmanship in such rugged surrounds.

    Thanks again.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    S.W. Florida
    Posts
    2,011

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    C&P this in your browser window

    site:http://forum.woodenboat.com/ garvey

    to get a list of garvey threads on the forum.

    For a while I tried exactly that: to determine the 3d dimensions of those Chinese hulls by close examination of available photo's and models. It seems to be very simple. The bottom seems to be a plank of constant width, slightly narrower forward, and also a slight rocker. Getting that flare and the sheer of the sides is difficult, but possible. Built a cereal box model or two, but then decided the risk is not worth it, dunno what I'm doing.
    Some of the oriental artists include considerable detail in their works.



    I remember a PBS program, NOVA Builds a Rainbow (LINK), in which a replica of the ancient Rainbow Bridge was built based on details in a 900-year-old painting.


    Last edited by sharpiefan; 11-02-2017 at 12:11 PM.

    Hope the voyage is a long one.
    May there be many a summer morning when,
    with what pleasure, what joy,
    you come into harbors seen for the first time...

    Ithaka, by Cavafy
    (Keeley - Sherrard translation)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Waterbury, Connecticut
    Posts
    1,946

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    More or less (more less) on the topic: a few years ago I saw a beautiful wooden sampan rigged for sail in a driveway off River Road in (probably) Amesbury, Massachusetts (possibly closer to the Haverhill border). It seemed to hang out there some weeks or months for sale. Any area forumites ever see it or hear about its fate? -- Wade

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    26,667

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    The actual search was all about finding a shallow draft hull that can sustain an aft cabin/light weight shelter structure, not so much a Chinese boat. ... Saw a photo somewhere on net of a Garvey sailer with aft cabin, but can't find it now
    This one? http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...rvey-Houseboat



    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Whangarei New Zealand
    Posts
    425

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    Talking of books and pictures for inspiration..... there is Setting Sails, by Derek Maitland and Nik Wheeler(available from Amazon), which shows very clearly the full stern configuration mentioned in the OP here.
    Then there is the description by Basil Greenhill, that all Chinese craft are derived from two essential types - the duck sampan and the chicken sampan, where the essential features of flat bottom ending in a transom at each end characterises the chicken sampan and much more rocker, with hard chines, characterises the duck sampan.

    Since tail squat is never desirable, with 10hp power available on a small flat water boat, both a transom stern and tail rocker will be good to have.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    24

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    That's the one.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    24

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    Thanks for the book references, only saw that post now. BTW, Agree with you on the stern section, Lugalong. It is IMHO a major contribution of the Chinese; the way they seem to able to lift a boat's ass out of the water (pardon the description, cant get hold of correct boating words right now). In spite of the centre of gravity being aft, they counter it with boyancy...if I can speculate. And this is a negative when substituting a Chinese hull with even the Garvey - the stern. Even with the Garvey it becomes an 'understatement' , a stern without enough 'lift' and presence. But maybe this is highly subjective and not supposed te be an issue.

    But still, as you say: "Since tail squat is never desirable, with 10hp power available on a small flat water boat, both a transom stern and tail rocker will be good to have." This is exactly what I am looking for. A Rocker tail-end with transom only marginally out of the water, (or on the water, depending cargo) will do. At this stage an option would be to upscale Phil Thiel's 'Sweet & Simple Sampan" http://www.mission-base.com/pedal-power/pp_sssampan_layout.html Larger sampan plans seem to be scarce?

    OK, in view of the absence of plans, attached are pictures out of an enclosed manual for building a Chinese Model. For your entertainment.
    Presumably the dimensions are fake and meant for the tourists market, but what is not fake is the way that constant width bottom is disguised by flare and sheerline ('Sampan' means 'three planks' I read somewhere). PLUS one can hang a motor there...

    Really wish plans were available, but perhaps the book-route will be even more rewarding

    Thanks again.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Lexington, MA
    Posts
    752

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    I suggest that you talk with Doug Hylan about his two garvey's. They are extremely capable boats, wide, stable and adaptable.
    The WoodenBoat store has plans.
    I'll bet that Doug could tweak either one to look Chinese!

    www.dhylanboats.com/design/plans/ben_garvey_plans

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    24

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    Thanks, will do. Garvey hull still seems to be a very good option. No need to dress it up as Chinese, as long as it can do the job as mentioned. Regards, M

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    26,667

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    "Since tail squat is never desirable, with 10hp power available on a small flat water boat, both a transom stern and tail rocker will be good to have." This is exactly what I am looking for. A Rocker tail-end with transom only marginally out of the water, (or on the water, depending cargo) will do
    That is what I wanted, too. So I designed my own. This boat started out as an 8' pram, and is now just under 19'. The photo makes it look a little wonky, but the bottom is dead straight in the middle section with the bow rockered up slightly and the stern rockered sharply. It glides effortlessly with low power at slow to medium speed.









    The last 2 pics are with a 6 hp, basically full throttle. Will have a15 on it next year to see how it behaves and if it will climb to a full plane or not. But I don't really need it to. It's already well above hull speed. The bow is up but you can see it is not squatting badly and this is at about the speed where I would expect it would squat. And it's a narrow boat with no weight in the front. Its all in the back, namely me and the motor. Unfortunately 6 hp was not enough to push it any harder. This boat is too narrow for you but I bet DH's garvey with the stern modified would be just about right. Not sure how he feels about it but I would not hesitate to make such changes to run it with ten horsepower. Although no doubt there are reasons there aren't more boats drawn this way. My boat is more of a motor canoe, long and narrow, and the stern shape was forced on me by the pram I started out with. But I'd guess that if you want to carry a lot of weight aft, and don't want it to squat at higher speeds something like this seems like a good compromise.
    Last edited by JimD; 11-03-2017 at 01:01 PM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    26,667

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    You might find something from Paul Fisher: http://www.selway-fisher.com/Skylarks.htm

    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Nebraska/Bull Shoals AR
    Posts
    69

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    Similar to JimD's above, the 20' jon that I built is dead flat in the middle and slight rocker front and rear. With a 9.9 four stroke I am getting 16 mph on my GPS phone app. Very efficient.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Western Washington
    Posts
    2,983

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    Perhaps larger than what you had in mind, but interesting in some ways, and maybe quite useful:



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    East Quogue,NY
    Posts
    13,623

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    John Gardner drew a 22-foot low-speed garvey ( 10 kts @ 10 hp, supposedly.) It is in his book, Building Classic Small Craft.





    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    10,553

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    I once sailed a sampan such as the one shown here in the Ensenada Race which is, normally a down wind race along the lower coast of California and into Mexico.
    The boat had an outboard well that was set up almost identical to the one seen above. Since the boat had no efficient bilge pump aboard, I brought along my "Portagee" Pump that would empty half a gallon with each stroke. It was a good thing because the following seas swamped the boat through the outboard port and nearly sank us! That pump was our life saver! I am sorry but that, open, out board well is a very bad idea! Perhaps the rain gods were trying to tell you something!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 11-06-2017 at 01:46 PM.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,209

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mich View Post
    Thanks for the book references, only saw that post now. BTW, Agree with you on the stern section, Lugalong. It is IMHO a major contribution of the Chinese; the way they seem to able to lift a boat's ass out of the water (pardon the description, cant get hold of correct boating words right now). In spite of the centre of gravity being aft, they counter it with boyancy...if I can speculate. And this is a negative when substituting a Chinese hull with even the Garvey - the stern. Even with the Garvey it becomes an 'understatement' , a stern without enough 'lift' and presence. But maybe this is highly subjective and not supposed te be an issue.

    But still, as you say: "Since tail squat is never desirable, with 10hp power available on a small flat water boat, both a transom stern and tail rocker will be good to have." This is exactly what I am looking for. A Rocker tail-end with transom only marginally out of the water, (or on the water, depending cargo) will do. At this stage an option would be to upscale Phil Thiel's 'Sweet & Simple Sampan" http://www.mission-base.com/pedal-power/pp_sssampan_layout.html Larger sampan plans seem to be scarce?

    OK, in view of the absence of plans, attached are pictures out of an enclosed manual for building a Chinese Model. For your entertainment.
    Presumably the dimensions are fake and meant for the tourists market, but what is not fake is the way that constant width bottom is disguised by flare and sheerline ('Sampan' means 'three planks' I read somewhere). PLUS one can hang a motor there...

    Really wish plans were available, but perhaps the book-route will be even more rewarding

    Thanks again.
    You could scale this up.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Whangarei New Zealand
    Posts
    425

    Default Re: Best substitute for Chinese traditional hull?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mich View Post
    Thanks for the book references, only saw that post now. BTW, Agree with you on the stern section, Lugalong. It is IMHO a major contribution of the Chinese; the way they seem to able to lift a boat's ass out of the water (pardon the description, cant get hold of correct boating words right now). In spite of the centre of gravity being aft, they counter it with boyancy...if I can speculate. And this is a negative when substituting a Chinese hull with even the Garvey - the stern. Even with the Garvey it becomes an 'understatement' , a stern without enough 'lift' and presence. But maybe this is highly subjective and not supposed te be an issue.

    Suggestion by john W to scale up the model could be helpful if it was modified to suit double chine plywood construction, and at the same time make use of Jim Michalak plans (of one of his double chine designs) to get a boat on the water in aid of further development.
    Workability of the design will depend very much on displacement and trim, so that playing with

    But still, as you say: "Since tail squat is never desirable, with 10hp power available on a small flat water boat, both a transom stern and tail rocker will be good to have." This is exactly what I am looking for. A Rocker tail-end with transom only marginally out of the water, (or on the water, depending cargo) will do. At this stage an option would be to upscale Phil Thiel's 'Sweet & Simple Sampan" http://www.mission-base.com/pedal-power/pp_sssampan_layout.html Larger sampan plans seem to be scarce?

    OK, in view of the absence of plans, attached are pictures out of an enclosed manual for building a Chinese Model. For your entertainment.
    Presumably the dimensions are fake and meant for the tourists market, but what is not fake is the way that constant width bottom is disguised by flare and sheerline ('Sampan' means 'three planks' I read somewhere). PLUS one can hang a motor there...

    Really wish plans were available, but perhaps the book-route will be even more rewarding

    Thanks again.
    Suggestion by john W to scale up the model could be helpful, if it was modified to suit double chine in plywood construction.

    However, I think that tests will show the bow ( with that duck sampan nose rocker) will either plow and create too great of a bow wave(if trimmed by the bow, in the case of your passengers being seated forward). or else want to lift over the wave and ride with a nose-up attitude ( which you prefer to avoid).

    This is why I suggest starting with one of Jim MIchalak's double chine designs, and play with the trim and tail end mods, in order to get the CB aft, where you want it.

    Paying the very reasonable price for Jim's plans of a boat in the size and displacement range that you are interested in, might be as economical as buying a book or two.

    The book (Setting Sails) is one with good pics of motorised sampans and junks being built around HongKong, and does clearly show how they have evolved to suit motor power.

    Underwater, the bows can be seen to be less blunt than sampans that are good for sculling in the canals.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 11-06-2017 at 08:16 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •