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Thread: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

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    Question Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Are there kits to build a tandem sliding seat rower, with minimal decking to make room for passenger(s), that can be fast for bay or open water rowing and comfortablely seat a third adult plus enough cargo for three adults, who are backpackers, to row minimal provisions for two nights of row cruising | camping?

    My 4wd truck shell with Thule roof rack has a 150# limit so I would like the option to cartopping. The need for speed is row to safety and to row across as the SF Bay for lunch then row back home before nightfall even if the wind and waves picks up.

    So far, a CLC Anapolis Wherry Tandem kit seems to fit the want of a faster day sculler that can also be outfitted for occasional two nights for beach camping for three.

    A transome mount capability would be a nice touch for that smaller electrical outboard "500?" I saw at West Marine, for later on, but this might be a heavy option that might never get used.
    Last edited by Chris94703; 11-03-2017 at 02:54 PM. Reason: clarity

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    I bet you could build a light weight gunning dory then add sliding seats and use the existing oarlocks.

    This would be a real sweet ride, and Dave would surely help you with the design for the sliding seats.

    I would mount 2 of the sliding seats, without the riggers, from the Piantedosi Row Wing.




    http://gentrycustomboats.com/GunningDory.html



    It's a much easier, faster and less expensive build than the same hull in traditional wood, and it weighs less than 150 pounds.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    ...Thanks, Gib. "Skin-on-frame" of the Gunning Dory sounds rather vulnerable, but then hulls of 6mm Okume (sp?) plywood sounds already daring. What's a good first book on the subject of building wooden row boats for open-water speed?

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Check in with Clint Chase with one of his Drake versions; if you were going for double slides the 19 footer would be better than the 17 footer. There are also the gents with the Row Cruiser (Angus Rowboats) which have a slick DIY drop in rowing unit. I'd be a little leery of a CLC wherry on SF bay, pretty low freeboard.
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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Check in with Clint Chase with one of his Drake versions; if you were going for double slides the 19 footer would be better than the 17 footer. There are also the gents with the Row Cruiser (Angus Rowboats) which have a slick DIY drop in rowing unit. I'd be a little leery of a CLC wherry on SF bay, pretty low freeboard.
    Yes, my gut feeling agrees with you on "...leery of a CLC wherry on SF Bay..." even with the additional length of the Tandem version.

    Thanks for this suggestion: http://www.chase-small-craft.com/new...-drake-19.html

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Skin on Frame is a whole lot tougher than most folks realize., and it's the only way you'll get a boat that size and that safe that I know of that's within your weight parameters.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    I think I'd start with Clint Chase too.

    If fixed seat were acceptable I think you would have more options. Allowing for a light trailer would open up many more.

    CLC's Southwester Dory might fit most of the bill.
    Take a look here: http://www.selway-fisher.com/Rowskiffs.htm, Hartford 18?

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    https://angusrowboats.com/

    Look at this site if you haven’t already. Great adventure row boats. You could build one without the cabin and fit up to three in there maybe? . But two and camping gear for sure. They are desingned and used by ,understantment here, a very capable and experienced person.

    A three person openwater rowboat that can carry camping gear for all three, with weight under 150#s might be hard to get but maybe not it won’t be much under 150 if so. What is that 650-700 pounds of people and gear? I like the skin-on-frame suggestion above. It’s a great way to get strong and light, and they are tough. A good, sleek, fast, and long dory, as suggested above sounds right. As does a trailer as opposed to car topping.
    Last edited by Matt young; 10-30-2017 at 11:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Maybe one of the larger St.Lawrence River Skiffs built as light as possible in glued lapstrake.


    http://www.grapeviewpointboatworks.com/slrs.html


    https://store.mysticseaport.org/ship...ver-skiff.html




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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt young View Post
    https://angusrowboats.com/

    Look at this site if you haven’t already. Great adventure row boats. You could build one without the cabin and fit up to three in there maybe? . But two and camping gear for sure. They are desingned and used by ,understantment here, a very capable and experienced person.

    A three person openwater rowboat that can carry camping gear for all three, with weight under 150#s might be hard to get but maybe not it won’t be much under 150 if so. What is that 650-700 pounds of people and gear? I like the skin-on-frame suggestion above. It’s a great way to get strong and light, and they are tough. A good, sleek, fast, and long dory, as suggested above sounds right. As does a trailer as opposed to car topping.
    Angus Rowcruiser and the CLC Annapolis Wherry Tandem are my two contenders that are offered as kits.

    I’d buy a trailer, but i’d rather install a second pair of Thule rack (four bars) and figure out a way for two adults to mount a 150# boat to the truck top.

    Only one of them are tandem sculler boats.
    Last edited by Chris94703; 11-01-2017 at 12:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Specifically the Thames 19 or the Lodden 20. You could add an extra plank,or two on the Thames. St Bronaghs skiff also at 18ft.

    http://www.selway-fisher.com/Rowskiffs.htm

    Theres the new Hartford 18....looks good!





    All weigh under 150 lbs

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    If you contact Clint, see if he has his 19 footer as a kit. It would not be hard to take out the seats and drop in rowing rigs. Been my experience in open water boats that you run out of boat length at about 17 feet LOA ( say 16 on the water) with two people rowing and optimally 18 foot lwl is better. An interesting option in open water boats is to do slides without outriggers. This was done in the 19th century, see, for example, the Bailey Whitehall in the Mystic Seaport Museum collection. I've done it with my ducker. Dick Shew used to set up his whitehalls that way.
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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three


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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three


    If you only had 1 or 2 rowers in this one, or any one for that matter, you would want to be able to adjust seat placement to avoid being bow down. A good way to do that would be to have seats (with floatation) going longitudinally down each side with their inboard edges parallel and equidistant so you could place supports for the slider between the two at any position you want. Of course, then you'll need to have multiple options for placement of the oarlocks as well, and oars of various lengths to fit the beam where the seat is placed.

    I still think the SOF gunning dory is your best bet, it's the third person and all of that gear that makes me think that. Some of the others suggested would make me very nervous fully loaded in a heavy chop.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Only a design idea and not intended for open water rowing and also not as refined as some of the suggested designs, but should be a simple and straightforward build maximizing three sheets of 6 mm plywood used for the hull and matching most of the requirements of the OP.

    LOA: 19' 5"
    Beam: 49"
    Approx. bare boat weight: 130 lbs
    Design displacement: ~ 800 lbs







    Last edited by flo-mo; 11-02-2017 at 12:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Looks like the third person could sit down low in the stern and the camping gear could go in the bow. More floatation could be added below the thwarts and along the sides inboard, and sponsons outboard of the sheer planks as well as side decks and a combing all the way around would keep it quite a bit drier, altogether making it much more suitable for open water use, all without adding much weight. It could even be done SOF.

    The person in the stern could help by manning a rudder.

    More rake to the bow and stern would be nice for dealing with surf and waves.

    I like it.
    Last edited by Gib Etheridge; 11-02-2017 at 06:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    For that crossing with that big a crew I would vote for Clint's Drake 19, maybe with extra decking.



    https://www.flickr.com/photos/clintc...57649788979477

    I row the Bay in a fully decked Walkabout, it can get pretty rough returning in the afternoon most summer days.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three



    May/June 2011 #220 WoodenBoat article, I don’t know if you have seen it it’s a good one. Chris, I like your plan to row about the bay it sounds like a fun time. And a great way to safely navigate and enjoy that area. I agree with you, two people will have no problem getting the boat you are talking about on top of your roof rack.

    Flo-Mo, nice boat you dropped here. It looks like a good voyager canoe to me, I like it. Maybe some kind of outrigger for those oars, Can you post a crosssection lines plan? What is the rocker and loaded waterline? It looks to have a fairly hard chine bilge, is that so?

    The Hartford 18 above by Fisher looks great, wonder if he would stretch it to 19’ or so.
    Last edited by Matt young; 11-02-2017 at 09:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    I find the Hartford 18 has similar lines to my Vatternsnipa...



    I have already taken off the lines and mould shapes with the idea of possibly reproducing it in plywood. After seeing the Hartford, i wouldnt bother.
    Most of Pauls work is done inside a PC, so stretching should not be too difficult, but need a new set of plank expansions to be plotted, unless you fancy lining off yourself.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    I tried a drop-in sliding seat and riggers in Leeward, my Chamberlain gunning dory, and hated it. First, it was a great deal of clutter in the boat. And in that size boat, I don't see stuffing in two. And if a tandem, it would never be suitable for solo rowing. As a live-aboard, the riggers made the dory unsuitable as a tender as I could not lay alongside anything.

    And most of all, the riggers are totally and forever a menace in any open water with anything like a little chop. More than 1' and you're catching crabs with almost every stroke.

    Go fixed seat, open top oarlocks, and learn the dory man's stroke that you'll find well illustrated in one of your back issues of WoodenBoat Magazine.

    Finally, for open water I very much advocate a centerboard and rudder. You can lash the rudder at whatever angle lets the boat go straight, different angles for upwind, quartering, or whatever. And the centerboard will let you row about two points off the wind, which is so much easier than rowing straight into a Strong Breeze (Force 6, wind c. 25 knots). Better to tack up wind than fight it. You'd be amazed how easy it is just a little off straight upwind but to do this you must must must have some grip on the water, hence the centerboard.

    Of course, if you only go out when it's calm, these points are moot but then it's not really open water where you take it as it comes.

    G'luck
    Last edited by Ian McColgin; 11-03-2017 at 06:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt young View Post
    Flo-Mo, nice boat you dropped here. It looks like a good voyager canoe to me, I like it. Maybe some kind of outrigger for those oars, Can you post a crosssection lines plan? What is the rocker and loaded waterline? It looks to have a fairly hard chine bilge, is that so?
    Hi Matt,
    thank you for your kind words.

    The Flywood TSR utilizes a building method that is called folded plywood (hence the name of the design: Folded plywood => Flywood) or butterfly construction technique, which I know from B&B Yacht Designs’ Moccasin Canoe and also Mark Pettingill’s Sweet Dream Canoe.
    This method makes for nicely shaped full and buoyant ends which gradually turn into a hard chine towards the middle of the hull.

    Numbers for rocker are always kind of vague, but I'd say 3 to 3.5" rocker.

    Lines plan with the waterline at 800 lbs displacement (5.5" draft):



    The actual building sequence would be similar to the build of this small paper model: https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...5LPgNCe7vJ1bGu





    Kind regards,
    Stefan
    Last edited by flo-mo; 11-03-2017 at 10:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    I like the Hartford 18 too -- some resemblance to the Cosine Wherry stretched to 18 ft.








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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    I tried a drop-in sliding seat and riggers in Leeward, my Chamberlain gunning dory, and hated it. First, it was a great deal of clutter in the boat. And in that size boat, I don't see stuffing in two. And if a tandem, it would never be suitable for solo rowing. As a live-aboard, the riggers made the dory unsuitable as a tender as I could not lay alongside anything.

    And most of all, the riggers are totally and forever a menace in any open water with anything like a little chop. More than 1' and you're catching crabs with almost every stroke.

    ...
    G'luck
    Because of racing boats I think, we seem to be fixated on outriggers with sliding seats. It does not have to be that way. Slides work well with on the gunwale rowing, but you have to build them. I have a small frame for my ducker on which the gunning box sits and rolls back and forth just fine. Dick Shew used to do rowing frames for his whitehalls. The Bailey whitehall at Mystic has not outriggers and a slide. What you need is a frame that fits over the fixed seat on which the tracks are fixed. You may need a stanchion at one end because of overhang. Use your regular foot stretchers. Or look at the system that the Finns use. The Poseidon sliding seat system and the Savo open water rowing boat which is available as a kit and the two person model might be just what the OP needs.
    Ben Fuller
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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Have you tried talking over your needs with Open Water Rowing, the group in Sausalito? http://owrc.com/
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    I see three scenarios:

    First is it's me and my two backpacking male buddies as crew, which means we'll wear or haul wetsuits (full or farmer johns) and dare to row out in challenging yet safe conditions, two taking turns to scull, and getting in some trouble's fine as long as no one gets permanently injured;

    Second is one male buddy and my wife as crew, which means we'll be dressed for nice lunch on shore restaurant(s) on day trips and we'll use it for camping, all during fairer weather;

    -- I would not mind changing the setup to only one sliding seat for the times I will scull alone --

    Third, I may end up building a second boat from a compete kit: https://angusrowboats.com/pages/rowcruiser.

    All these are aspirational notions of a neophyte landlubber, so please comment with reality checks or considerations. We do have an ergo machine and I have had some crew exposure in college.
    I had better stay away from plans and stick with a complete kit for my first build: It's inconceivable I'd limit myself to only one row boat, especially since friends have showed interest in rowing together.
    Last edited by Chris94703; 11-03-2017 at 03:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    Have you tried talking over your needs with Open Water Rowing, the group in Sausalito? http://owrc.com/
    Thanks, I will visit all the relevant rowing or sculling clubs in our lovely SF Bay area, eventually.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris94703 View Post
    I see three scenarios:

    First is it's me and my two backpacking male buddies as crew, which means we'll wear or haul wetsuits (full or farmer johns) and dare to row out in challenging yet safe conditions, two taking turns to scull, and getting in some trouble's fine as long as no one gets permanently injured;

    Second is one male buddy and my wife as crew, which means we'll be dressed for nice lunch on shore restaurant(s) on day trips and we'll use it for camping, all during fairer weather;

    -- I would not mind changing the setup to only one sliding seat for the times I will scull alone --

    Third, I may end up building a second boat from a compete kit: https://angusrowboats.com/pages/rowcruiser.

    All these are aspirational notions of a neophyte landlubber, so please comment with reality checks or considerations. We do have an ergo machine and I have had some crew exposure in college.
    I had better stay away from plans and stick with a complete kit for my first build: It's inconceivable I'd limit myself to only one row boat, especially since friends have showed interest in rowing together.
    This provides a bunch more information. With 3 you really will need to go beyond 17 feet. The 19' Drake with the Angus or other slide could well work but email Clint Chase. The two person Savo may also work. Both of these are kitted boats. The biggest challenge to these will be weight distribution. When you have a passenger aboard in the stern ideally you need to shift both of your rowing positions forward. This is easier with an outrigger system, but no matter your selection, you will have to modify your kit.
    Ben Fuller
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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    This provides a bunch more information. With 3 you really will need to go beyond 17 feet. The 19' Drake with the Angus or other slide could well work but email Clint Chase. The two person Savo may also work. Both of these are kitted boats. The biggest challenge to these will be weight distribution. When you have a passenger aboard in the stern ideally you need to shift both of your rowing positions forward. This is easier with an outrigger system, but no matter your selection, you will have to modify your kit.

    Ah, thanks for suggestion of the Savo 650 D3:
    http://www.oarsmanmarinetallow.com/s...lank%29__.html
    http://puuvenepiste.fi/en/boat_savo_...eferences.html

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Whatever you build, you will need to have the oarlocks high enough, or your legs low enough, or both, that you have enough clearance between the water and the blade of the oar on the recovery stroke so as to avoid catching crabs when the wind comes up and the chop gets high, and it will. That's something you can achieve with the gunning dory that many of the suggested hulls don't provide.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Also, Dave Gentry may be producing a kit for the gunning dory. You'd have to email him about that.

  31. #31

    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    How about the Bolger Long Dory? The plans and a construction guide are in the book "Instant Boatbuilding with Dynamite Payson:". 19' 6" by 4', with tack and tape construction. It has three movable seats on a ladder-like framework and would seem to be quite versatile. I haven't seen any videos of it rowing, but there are pics on-line of them being built and rowed. Construction seems very straightforward and in my opinion, it is a very beautiful boat. Probably not light enough to car-top, but it would trailer very easily.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    The Savo 650D is a fantastic rowboat specifically designed for racing the Finnish lakes.

    Design displacement is 450 lbs (200 kg).

    Heavily laden it will still be faster than any other rowboat mentioned in this thread but it is certainly not what it is designed for.



    Weight equipped boat: 46 kg Displacement: 200 kg
    Length over all: 6490 mm Water line length: 6392 mm
    Beam over all: 1270 mm Water line beam: 747 mm
    Depth over all: 625 mm Draft: 115 mm
    Freeboard: 320 mm
    Wetted surface: 3,39 mē
    Weight to immerse: 2,93 kg/mm


    Last edited by flo-mo; 11-04-2017 at 07:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    It might be the drone camera angle, but it looked to carry a good way between strokes. Im not sure sliding seats are that great for rough water, despite them being used on Transat boats.

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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Here you see the difference in speed between drive and recovery:


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    Default Re: Open water tandem sculling boat, row cruiser for three

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris94703 View Post
    I see three scenarios:

    First is it's me and my two backpacking male buddies as crew, which means we'll wear or haul wetsuits (full or farmer johns) and dare to row out in challenging yet safe conditions, two taking turns to scull, and getting in some trouble's fine as long as no one gets permanently injured;

    Second is one male buddy and my wife as crew, which means we'll be dressed for nice lunch on shore restaurant(s) on day trips and we'll use it for camping, all during fairer weather;

    -- I would not mind changing the setup to only one sliding seat for the times I will scull alone --

    Third, I may end up building a second boat from a compete kit: https://angusrowboats.com/pages/rowcruiser.

    All these are aspirational notions of a neophyte landlubber, so please comment with reality checks or considerations. We do have an ergo machine and I have had some crew exposure in college.
    I had better stay away from plans and stick with a complete kit for my first build: It's inconceivable I'd limit myself to only one row boat, especially since friends have showed interest in rowing together.
    I found some pictures of what I see as the two extremes of a wooden boat solution. First is a big ole banks type dory, very seaworthy but not so fast and high windage. This is Pete Evans' Grunwald dory. Pete rowed this around the Bay for decades and never wanted for anything else. Really not car-toppable:


    At the other extreme is a boat like this, Mike Huntsinger's English Gig. This is really a river and lake boat, like the Finnish boats, and it absolutely was NOT safe on the Bay until decks and flotation bags were added. It is very quick and low windage, but you cannot move around in it and I don't find it comfortable after an hour or so. It will carry two rowers and a cox, but at 23 feet is much bigger than the the other boats you are looking at. I would not go much smaller for 3.


    The gig will fit on a truck rack:

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