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Thread: AYC Frames?

  1. #1
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    Default AYC Frames?

    How is yellow cedar for frames? Growing up on the east coast, it's hard to shake the assumption that cedar (which means eastern white cedar) is just for planking, ideally over oak frames. However, a couple boats I've looked at out here in WA have had yellow cedar frames.

    So how is it? Rot-resistant as all get-out, I assume, but how about for strength? Any conflicts with particular metals? Anythign about it I should be aware of, if I fall in love with an old boat with AYC frames?

    Thanks,
    Alex

  2. #2
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Steams well, glues well, surprisingly resilient, but the sapwood rots, watch out for that. It's only slightly different colored (lighter) and easy to miss.

    AYC is one of the few species that you can use for any and every application in a hull, including the mast(s) and spar(s).

    It's a bit heavier than WRC, so not often used for planking in small boats, except maybe for the sheer as accent, but it does make excellent planking.

    What boat are you considering?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Are these frames steam bent, laminated, or sawn? I would take the latter two in AYC every time.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Alaska Yellow Cedar can, and has been used for, just about any part of a boat on this coast for a hundred years. I don’t have any experience with steam bending frames with AYC.

    Only Port Orford is better, but very hard to come by since the Japanese have culled the logs for decades.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Woodwinds frames , floors, keel, stem ,stern and their knees, clamp, deck beams and rudder are ayc.
    Her frames are 7 lams, 2" x 3 ".
    It was not my second choice.
    All AYC.
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 11-02-2017 at 12:32 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    All good info. Thank you.

    There's no one specific boat I'm looking at seriously --though there's one 1946 boat I'm squinting at to see if I like her, supposedly with 3"x4" AYC frames (steamed or sawn, doesn't say)-- but I've seen AYC frames a couple times in listings and wanted to learn a bit more about it. If it rots in five years with galv fasteners, or explodes on contact with dieself fumes, I want a little advanced warning.

    Alex

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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    AYC is fine for frames. If you are substituting it for another species specified in the plans, you might want to compare relative strengths, and adjust your scantlings accordingly.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  8. #8
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    ...adjust your scantlings accordingly.
    How would you adjust those scantlings from, say, white oak (since that's what I'm most familiar with)?

    Woodwinds frames , floors, keel, stem ,stern and their knees, clamp, deck beams and rudder are ayc.
    Her frames are 7 lams, 2" x 3 ".
    It was not my second choice.
    Whew! If that isn't a vote of confidence, I don't know what is. What's she planked with?

    Alex

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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Woodwind is planked with DFir. Mt St Helens knock down. I was quite poor when she was built. Ran out of AYC and the fir was right there. Yes, I would have preferred she be %100 AYC.
    Laminated, it makes a very stiff frame.
    To compare it to hardwood , I like to say," sound cedar is stronger than rotten oak".

  10. #10
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Just comparing MoE - the most common and simplistic of shorthand metrics for 'strength' ---

    AYC -- MoE = 1,420,000 lb/sq. in.
    http://www.wood-database.com/alaskan-yellow-cedar/

    W. Oak -- MoE = 1,762,000
    http://www.wood-database.com/white-oak/

    By that measure... w. oak is almost 25% stronger. So I'd be thinking about increasing the scantlings something like 20-25% in a conversion to AYC. We can get by with slightly less than a direct ratio... because the larger dimension also - all by themselves - increase beam strength - in greater than linear fashion.

    If you wanted to be more precise (not because you really need to, just for fun... or if you suffer from anxiety or OCD [g]... or just for fun) you might create an average of a set of several strength metrics to compare and use that average value for adjusting your AYC dimensions.
    Last edited by David G; 10-31-2017 at 10:34 AM.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  11. #11
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Yea David, but these graphs are for a plain nog of wood. Not for laminates.
    A board of oak ,(assuming it is still sound), is ONLY 25 percent stronger than AYC? That would make me lean to AYC even more!
    Yes, if the AYC grown frames are compared to Oak grown frames, the AYC needs to be bigger.
    But compare laminated AYC to steamed Oak.(not that I have mathematically).

  12. #12
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Remember that AYC & POC are not cedars - but cypresses. Very different wood when compared to Eastern White.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Just another note about AYC and iron/steel fastenings: The intrusion of salt water will turn the surrounding AYC black over time. Not a problem, really, if you are painting it all, but if you are planning on a clear or natural finish to let the glory of that golden wood grain show, then consider using bronze fastenings if $$ permits.

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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Yea David, but these graphs are for a plain nog of wood. Not for laminates.
    A board of oak ,(assuming it is still sound), is ONLY 25 percent stronger than AYC? That would make me lean to AYC even more!
    Yes, if the AYC grown frames are compared to Oak grown frames, the AYC needs to be bigger.
    But compare laminated AYC to steamed Oak.(not that I have mathematically).
    Yup... the calculus changes when you're talking bent lamination, which tends to stiff everything up.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Quote Originally Posted by MAGIC's Craig View Post
    Just another note about AYC and iron/steel fastenings: The intrusion of salt water will turn the surrounding AYC black over time. Not a problem, really, if you are painting it all, but if you are planning on a clear or natural finish to let the glory of that golden wood grain show, then consider using bronze fastenings if $$ permits.
    AYC isn't all that gorgeous anyway - at least to my eye.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  16. #16
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Just another note about AYC and iron/steel fastenings...
    That's a good thing to remember. Chemical reaction beyond just oxidization of the metal?

    If I'm starting from scratch with something as nice as AYC, I'll be using bronze anyway, but this could be a handy indicator if I'm looking at older work.

    Steams well, glues well, surprisingly resilient...
    With all these favorable reports, I'm considering using it for a piece of quarter-round trim between cockpit coaming and deck, replacing a piece of WRC that I installed wrong, that had, in turn, replaced a played-out 30-year-old piece of white oak. Just a detail piece, but it'll need to be steamed into place, and then be rot-resistant.

    Thank you all very much!

    Alex

  17. #17
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    I'm a big fan of yellow cedar.

    This post is not relevant to the framing question, but for anyone using yellow cedar for planking... my boat is planked with yellow cedar and I have been warned by two boatbuilders that this is a favourite with the teredo (did I spell that right?) worm so it is important to keep it protected. That is easily done with bottom paint, however. My boat is over 35 years old and when last hauled out the planking was still in great shape.

    I was also told, when looking at building a new hull, that yellow cedar should be sealed before painting as paint does not easily stick to it. Again, I've had no problems myself but as tip came from a trusted source I'm passing it on.

    Jamie

  18. #18
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Port Orford Cedar is the one that rejects paint.

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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Port Orford Cedar is the one that rejects paint.
    How so? Neoga's whole bottom has been replaced with POC - but she hasn't been splashed. The initial coat of bottom paint seems to be sticking well - but maybe won't when she gets wet?

    Is there a solution?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  20. #20
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Heine Dole had a POC boat that I painted for nim for years. ( I hate that POC spells poc). He had me slosh any bare wood with white gas,(Coleman ), to drive out, or in, the oil, before a coat of thinned out paint.
    Later, as he trusted me more, I switched over to priming her with CPES.
    I recon I would prime the bottom of ANY wood boat with CPES anymore.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Hmmm... I painted the bare wood with thinned non-ablative bottom paint - with the intention of a 2nd coat of regular Micron before she splashes.

    Won't CPES affect the swelling?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  22. #22
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Yes, Sure it will, but alone, will not stop it.
    It will slow down the swelling of curse, it will also slow down the drying.
    Which can be a good or bad thing.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Only complaints I've heard about AYC is in the extreme cold of Alaska winters it gets some kind of freeze checking. This from a shipwright at the co-op at Fisherman's Terminal where they service the Alaska fleet.

    He recommended Fir above the waterline for that reason. But there are so many reasons to do that the other way around that its just an academic point.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    When we hauled out Heinie Dole’s lovely “Evening Star” on the ways at Gig Harbor, the whole place smelled of Port Orford when we pressure washed her bottom. Heinie even made a gizmo that added added air from the shop compressor to try to reduce the psi on the paint and underwater planking.
    Especially fascinating when you factor in the boat was built soon after WWII for the owner of the Astoria shipyard, Heinie was the yard Superintendant and bought the boat and was gone up North every year for 6 months with his wife, Peg.
    I gotta say, I really miss the sights and smells of the wooden boat shops I was fortunate to start out in...cedar shavings from the planer, oak steaming for the frames, the pine tar in a Norway...sigh.
    So the port Orford was tough to get paint to stick, like Teak in a different way.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Poplar, Alex, is the wood species that explodes in contact with diesel fumes. Fortunately, as you know, not common in boat construction.
    Chuck Hancock

  26. #26
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    Default Re: AYC Frames?

    Ya gotta sneak up on it by not using primer and putting on the first coat piss thin followed by heavier coats. First coat soaks in and binds the second coat if applied when the first goes slightly tacky.
    Jay

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