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Thread: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    That's interesting, I think if I went to the trouble of strip plank, I'd build a round hull, I thought that's where strip planking had its best use? Especially those curvy boats like a Kingston Lobsterboat. What kind of wood would you use for the strips?

    I'll pass on the Buehler boats, not my cup 'o tea. Probably comfortable, etc, but as he says the inspiration for his design is an RV.


    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    Given your parameters, I'd be looking at George Buehlers Diesel Duck series. These are V bottom, reasonably easily driven, modest power, economical, and roomy.
    I'd build strip planked, like Wizbang, I like the idea that when the boat is finished end of life...it will largely return to the environment. It is more labour intensive, but simpler...a lot of small bits of wood rather than fewer larger pieces. Probably save 20% on hull cost.
    V bottom is easier to loft, frame, and slightly easier to plank. The rest of the boat will be the same work and cost.....
    Which comes first," someone asked Ira Gershwin, "the words or the music?" "The contract," said Gershwin.



  2. #37
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Quote Originally Posted by Harbormaster View Post
    A lot of the Reuel Parker boats are hard chine, even the bigger ones. I think either strip or hard chine can be built and would work. What are the other pluses for strip planking? Wouldn't it be more labor intensive? I'd go that way if I thought that the hull would be more fuel efficient, like 10 or 15% more efficient? That's why I'm thinking about making some models and testing them against each other. Any thoughts on that?
    Ask Doug Hylan about combining strip and plywood panel planking. In their simplest form (bent in one direction only) ply panels usually can only be used on hulls 'developed' for sheet materials. Strips work on other hull shapes.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Thanks, yes, I've admired his Yellow Cedar boats - it especially works in the 38'version. And that returns me to one of the original questions, how long should it be for two people living aboard ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Harbormaster, you might do well to check out the work of our fellow Forumite Tad Roberts's work at http://www.tadroberts.ca/services/new-design/power/. Tad has a series of classic-looking, high-efficiency powerboats, and if you don't see what you want, I am sure he would be happy to design one to your specifications. Here's an example:

    Which comes first," someone asked Ira Gershwin, "the words or the music?" "The contract," said Gershwin.



  4. #39
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Really? I've been told that the rule of thumb is about 1 GPH equates to about 17 hp. 60% of a 100 hp engine is still 60hp, so, wouldn't that translate to about 3 GPH?

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    I would not recommend to lean on power...you will some day need some power to punch your way in to shelter. You need more power to keep going in crappy conditions.
    For the size I am thinking for your project, I'd be thinking about 100-150 HP. Than run the engine 60-75 % ---90% of the time, on blast 90% for ~ 10% of time to keep the engine happy and clear the exhaust ports....
    With a properly designed drive train you should get ~1 GPH +-.
    Which comes first," someone asked Ira Gershwin, "the words or the music?" "The contract," said Gershwin.



  5. #40
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    My 45 foot ....18 ton powerboat built in 1934 cruised comfortably and totally consistently at 7 knots at 1.5 gal/hour at 1750 rpm ( max regular running speed according to the book was 2400 rpm) with a 125 hp Cummins from 1955. I ran the engine at 2200 rpm for about 1 hour in 10, getting a little over 8 knots ( with a lot more noise and vibration). My Brother has a 24 ton 45 ft boat built in 1927 with an original Gardner 75 hp drives him about 6 knots average.
    Strip planking a round bottom boat is almost as easy (though somewhat prolonged) as working on straight frames....were I really wanting V bottom or several chines I'd also consider steel or aluminum for the hull. The really simpler part is the lofting perhaps less than half the time and complexity of a similar round bottom boat.
    For two people to live aboard comfortably, I'd say the minimum is around 45 ft.....most of the couples ( i know at least 5 couples who have been aboard at least 5 years) I know living on generally traditional style boats, year round here are closer to 55 ft.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Surveys of long distance cruisers indicate the 32'-38' boats are the most 'successful' for two people, cost, handling and maintenance-wise. Liveaboards may be a different matter. Costs rise by weight, not by length, both in building and by perhaps a cube in maintenance. Length and width bear on mooring and dockage. It would take a LONG time to build a boat over 30' IMO. Do you have the time and funds for it before you want to be afloat? Even fitting out a used glass boat or hull to your liking is time consuming. Talk to Brendan Riordan of Rockport who's refitting a 32' Rhodes Swiftsure for his take on that.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Quote Originally Posted by Harbormaster View Post
    That's interesting, I think if I went to the trouble of strip plank, I'd build a round hull, I thought that's where strip planking had its best use? Especially those curvy boats like a Kingston Lobsterboat. What kind of wood would you use for the strips?

    I'll pass on the Buehler boats, not my cup 'o tea. Probably comfortable, etc, but as he says the inspiration for his design is an RV.
    Maybe as inspiration how *not* to do it.


    I don't understand why people buy these motor homes or their (theoretically) seagoing equivalent. A big-screen TV and a National Geographic nature video would serve the same purpose for a lot less money.
    ~~~ George Buehler, The Troller Yacht Book
    .......

    When yacht designer George Buehler decided he no longer wanted to sit in a cockpit of a sailboat and steer with a stick, he created a line of cruising powerboats that many people could afford and sailors could still love. He called them Troller Yachts. Unlike those fuel guzzling seagoing bulldozers called Trawler Yachts, his new designs were based on the graceful salmon trollers of the Pacific Northwest, among the most fuel efficient, seaworthy, and beautiful powerboats ever built. This wasn’t particularly original because some west coast naval architects had designed boats based on troller types long before Buehler was even born. But Buehler took the idea and gave it a hull form that was inexpensive to build, fuel tankage for transcontinental range, and an interior specifically planned out for a couple to be comfortable full time living aboard as well as long term cruising. Finally, he added a simple sailplan that greatly stabilizes roll, helps fuel economy, and will get you to shore if the engine quits.

    He named the first of these new designs DIESEL DUCK. Built of steel in California, powered by a small four cylinder diesel,and just 38 feet long, small for what many people thought an ocean going powerboat should be, she rapidly proved to be seakindly and comfortable to live in. But she did something else that nobody had expected. Wherever she went her rugged, simple, and traditional good looks stood out amidst all the white molded production boats, and soon Buehler was being asked to design more boats of this type. People wanted different lengths, different interiors, and even wood versions, so Buehler started designing variations on the Troller Yacht theme. People started building these new boats, and some of them added wonderful new ideas to the concept. Buehler happily incorporated many of them. Today, DIESEL DUCKS and his other fuel efficient Troller Yacht concepts are being built in various countries and are cruising on many of the world’s oceans.

    For example, a 41 footer circumnavigated South America, sending out an email as she rounded Cape Horn. A 44 cruised from her builder’s yard in China, through the Red Sea, to Europe. Another spent two years single handing the South Pacific before ending up in Washington State. Several of the 462s have crossed the Pacific and at least one is in the middle of a circumnavigation. Today, Troller Yachts are quietly out doing their job and more are being built. They are being built by professional builders who turn out beautiful yachts with gorgeous interiors as well as home builders, some with small budgets and smaller skills but big dreams. And that is part of the Troller concept’s appeal; it includes many approaches, all valid and equally welcome.

    http://trolleryachts.com/

    Hope the voyage is a long one.
    May there be many a summer morning when,
    with what pleasure, what joy,
    you come into harbors seen for the first time...

    Ithaka, by Cavafy
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Ummm... Covey Island Boatworks' schooner Tree of Life is 72 ft LOD, 91 ft LOA. Just sayin...
    I did say 'or so'.... Couple of people I have met sail the Westernman 40 & 50 fters..

    Strip would give the best round hull for efficient drive at displacement speeds, compared with hard chine with sheet material (Devlin) . Same can be done with carvel, with the higher skill level and caulking. I would go for strip and epoxy/glass. Bruce (wizzbang) produced a hull in very short time.

    BTW, if you can find a Gardener diesel, grab it. Two friends have them and there is nothing as good.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Not to be too picky about it, but the difference in efficiency in a 38-ft hard-chine live-aboard (relatively beamy) yacht travelling at just below hull speed vs. a round-bilged hull of similar length, breadth, and block coefficient is measureable, but actually quite small. Two weeks of slime growth on the hull of the round-bilged boat would make them about even.

    If I can be even more blasphemous, if I were considering a boat of that size for live-aboard cruising, I would look long and hard at buying a commercial fiberglass fishing boat hull, complete with engine, drivetrain, and tankage installed, have it trucked to my shop, and construct the interior, decks, and superstructure of wood. The results would look good, the technical bits would be done by professionals, the completed hull would need less maintenance, and I would save a lot of money by doing all that woodwork myself. Plus, I would get the aesthetics and interior arrangement that I wanted. There are lots of hull moulds available to choose from, ranging from hard-chine slender go-fasters to pregnant-guppy behemoths that would provide ginormous interior volume.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Quote Originally Posted by Harbormaster View Post

    I'll pass on the Buehler boats, not my cup 'o tea. Probably comfortable, etc, but as he says the inspiration for his design is an RV.
    The RV "inspiration" is drinks for 6, dinner for 4, and sleep 2. No point wasting interior elbow room squeezing in bunks that might never get used.
    How big to cruise for 2? I know several couples still "out there" after a decade on craft under 30ft. It is noted that Americans, generally, will have bigger boats than many Europeans, but mostly to carry the "extras" that many cruising people will do without. One of the easiest things is to over-boat yourself......usually at great cost.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Here is an Herreshoff design that is very efficient for going fast with little power but is also very easy on fuel and cruises nicely too.
    Jay
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le0nsvUQJOo
    https://twitter.com/louissauzedde/st...75990994714624

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    That is really nice Jay.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Having lived on a Marco Polo - 55'LOA x 10'B - I love the concept. Dave Gerr has some thoughts on "needle boats". But dockage is by the foot so an fifty footer with all the accomodation of a thirty footer is a bit pricy.

    Going a different way, Gerr has a nice little unit that's perfect for two people doing extended inland, river, and canal cruising with some pick you weather coastal.
    The 25' Escapade.
    Last edited by Ian McColgin; 10-29-2017 at 07:25 AM.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    This Joel White design would be a babe magnet of the first order, It's got bow and stern cockpits and all you'd want. Small twin diesels:
    291854_287262531285732_1035771716_n.jpg308013_287262774619041_332881050_n.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by rbgarr; 10-29-2017 at 09:19 AM.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Along the lines of the yacht STILETTO above, here's another (claimed) Herreshoff 'splinter' in need of a new owner. I've wondered if it's the former LFH designed John Higginson, one-time Harvard crew coaching launch:

    3660465_0_20110625214243_3_0.jpg


    http://www.boattrader.com/listing/19...f-47-102785405


    Last edited by rbgarr; 10-29-2017 at 09:25 AM.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Jay, that's fantastic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Here is an Herreshoff design that is very efficient for going fast with little power but is also very easy on fuel and cruises nicely too.
    Jay
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le0nsvUQJOo
    https://twitter.com/louissauzedde/st...75990994714624
    Which comes first," someone asked Ira Gershwin, "the words or the music?" "The contract," said Gershwin.



  17. #52
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Yes Dave, that's really close to what I have in mind, though with a lot less varnish. Doubt she needs twin diesels, though that makes her easier to maneuver - but it makes it easier to hide then, one on each side, under a berth rather than one right in the middle, in the way. I've got to track that one down some more. Thanks. Where did you find those pictures, and what's the boat's name?


    And the Herreshoff is quite something, put a pilot house on her, and she too could go cruising, though she's a bit long.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    This Joel White design would be a babe magnet of the first order, It's got bow and stern cockpits and all you'd want. Small twin diesels:
    291854_287262531285732_1035771716_n.jpg308013_287262774619041_332881050_n.jpg
    Last edited by Harbormaster; 10-29-2017 at 10:34 AM.
    Which comes first," someone asked Ira Gershwin, "the words or the music?" "The contract," said Gershwin.



  18. #53
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    I'm late to the conversation here, but there is one aspect of hull shape I don't see mentioned: roll rate. A light, flat bottomed sharpie hull can have a snap roll that will toss a cup of coffee across the cabin. A round-bilged displacement hull can refuse to settle down, wallowing back and forth until the guests loose their breakfast. For a boat that is to be lived in, I for one would insist on finding the comfortable middle ground.

    On another point, the suggestion of buying a sailboat, removing the rig and trimming the ballast is something I've wondered about. But I'll refine the idea a step. We used to have a 35' cruising catamaran that would run at 5-6 knots on one of it's two diesels, burning .6 gallons/hour. Without the air drag and weight of the rig, I would presume this to be even better. There are now quite a few older sailing cats available for less than $100,000 -- sometimes way less -- that offer highly efficient hulls and gobs of comfortable living space. I hear you, they aren't pretty. But functionally, there's a lot of bang for the buck -- and the coffee will not spill and the guests will digest in comfort.
    -Dave

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Power cat is how I would do this cruise.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    I would also consider a cruising cat...for cruising.
    Living aboard, not so much unless I could afford quite big. Living aboard involves some accumulation of stuff. Cats do not carry cargo as well.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Here is an Herreshoff design that is very efficient for going fast with little power but is also very easy on fuel and cruises nicely too.
    Jay
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le0nsvUQJOo
    Note carefully the stern mounted planing surfaces (likely added on afterwards).

    To me they warn of the danger, if higher speed as shown are desired, of too narrow a stern shape.

    Of course higher speeds can be attained, but by forcing the issue by using more power - but that fails the efficiency side of the equation for a true cruising boat for the not wealthy.

    Cheers,

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    She was in Hyannis Port for a couple of summers. I heard that the horizontal stabilizers were added to counter the tipping effect of the new engine's torque.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Build a live-aboard 38+ foot power cruising boat?

    I'm going to rain on everybody's parade and say, once again...if you want to go cruising, buy a used fiberglass powerboat. Power/sail, same principle applies.

    If you want to spend 8-10 years building a boat, then forge ahead. Just decide what you WANT.
    CLC Skerry = "Vingilothiel"

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    OR, look around with care for a liveaboard wood boat, maybe that needs a bit of structural work, and spent a year or two bringing her back.

    https://maine.craigslist.org/boa/d/4...339462129.html

    That way you get to saw up some wood, but you get going a LOT sooner.
    CLC Skerry = "Vingilothiel"

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan H View Post
    OR, look around with care for a liveaboard wood boat, maybe that needs a bit of structural work, and spent a year or two bringing her back.

    https://maine.craigslist.org/boa/d/4...339462129.html

    That way you get to saw up some wood, but you get going a LOT sooner.
    "Love" the ice fishing house stuck on behind the wheel house.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Quote Originally Posted by ulav8r View Post
    "Love" the ice fishing house stuck on behind the wheel house.
    Yeah, I got a giggle out of that, too. Nice boat, though and looks like the ice fishing part is quickly removeable if you happen to be heading for warmer climes.
    CLC Skerry = "Vingilothiel"

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Just a thought, and For more ideas have a Look at the Logan 33 built in NZ. 33ft glass, Narrow and low. 33-45 Hp diesel. Set up for short trips in semi sheltered waters. 2-4 people for a few days to a couple of weeks. Zane

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Quote Originally Posted by Harbormaster View Post
    Yes Dave, that's really close to what I have in mind, though with a lot less varnish. Doubt she needs twin diesels, though that makes her easier to maneuver - but it makes it easier to hide then, one on each side, under a berth rather than one right in the middle, in the way. I've got to track that one down some more. Thanks. Where did you find those pictures, and what's the boat's name?
    There's a chapter about her in Bill Mayher and Maynard Bray's book "Joel White": https://www.amazon.com/Joel-White-Bo.../dp/0960896406
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question


  30. #65
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    Default Re: Yet another pie-in-the-sky boat design question

    Sam Devlin's Czarinna 35' could be efficient, has the hard chine plywood form, but again twin engines. That could be changed. It's not really enough room for full time living aboard by two, but might work for one.

    https://www.devlinboat.com/2016/03/czarinna-35/
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