Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 39

Thread: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    120

    Question Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Hi all,

    A number of people here have mentioned that coating carvel planks in CPES or some other Epoxy is a potentially good way to deter marine borers, since vapor diffusion through the coating still allows the planks to swell together as they're supposed to. This made me wonder whether it might be possible to increase the abrasion resistance of the wood by bedding a cloth like kevlar or fiberglass in this epoxy as it's being applied. Would that still allow the planks to behave as they're intended to? I'm talking about doing this to individual planks one at a time, rather than encapsulating the whole hull, which I understand can end quite badly. I'm also not talking about gluing the edges of the planks together; the seams would still be caulked traditionally, just between reinforced planks.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    2,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by keck314 View Post
    Hi all,

    A number of people here have mentioned that coating carvel planks in CPES or some other Epoxy is a potentially good way to deter marine borers, since vapor diffusion through the coating still allows the planks to swell together as they're supposed to. This made me wonder whether it might be possible to increase the abrasion resistance of the wood by bedding a cloth like kevlar or fiberglass in this epoxy as it's being applied. Would that still allow the planks to behave as they're intended to? I'm talking about doing this to individual planks one at a time, rather than encapsulating the whole hull, which I understand can end quite badly. I'm also not talking about gluing the edges of the planks together; the seams would still be caulked traditionally, just between reinforced planks.

    Thanks!
    It would lift off at the edges even with caulk & paint, maybe not right away but a year or two...

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    42,741

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    CPES is way way too thin to use with glass.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    41,927

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    West System & System 3 publish some of the best research and how-to info for epoxy use, esp. with regard to boats. Here's some from West -- https://www.westsystem.com/instruction-2/

    You could read up... or just call their tech support line with you questions and proposals.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    35,178

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Back in the 1970's nylon cloth set in resorcinol resin was used a lot to protect from borers. Nylon is elastic and so will move with the wood.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    3,860

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Nylon is elastic, but is epoxy? Perhaps it would be best to use nylon cloth and G Flex, since it is more flexible.

    I think that some type of cloth should certainly be used with the resin, otherwise the resin would crack with expansion and contraction of the substrate, which I would try to lessen by using vertical grain planking or plywood.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Juneau, Alaska
    Posts
    4,061

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Why would you want to do this? At best it makes future repair harder and adds cost.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    3,860

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    He wants to keep the bugs out, not a bad idea. They may still get into the edges, but not all that likely if they were treated with copper napthanate or zinc napthanate after the epoxy work is done.


    "At best" it keeps the bugs out and keep the planks from cracking.

    At worst it allows the inner face to expand and contract at a much different rate from the outer face causing cupping. That being the case I would glass both faces and use one of the preservatives on the edges.

    I don't see how it would make future repairs any more difficult.
    Last edited by Gib Etheridge; 10-20-2017 at 09:40 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Juneau, Alaska
    Posts
    4,061

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    If the solution to keeping bugs out is a layer of glass then carvel would seem like a bad choice of build method. Strip planking would be more suitable.

    As as far as being harder to repair, even if just one plank at a time was glassed and that bond didn’t fail due to the wood wanting to expand while the glass didn’t, you still have to grind the glass off to fin/remove fasteners during a plank repair. That’s not my idea of a good time but to each his own I guess.

    On top of that, I’m not convinced that sealing planks with cpes is that great of an idea on a plank on frame boat. That boat Mr. Madison just bought had its planks well sealed inside and out and it took forever to take up by his account.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    120

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Keeping the bugs out would be the purpose of the epoxy, as I've heard that that alone is generally sufficient. My idea was that the fabric's primary purpose would be increasing abrasion resistance. I was inspired by this post about a couple who reinforced their cold-molded cedar yacht with kevlar for a trip into the ice above the arctic circle, and started thinking about whether that might be possible with a carvel-planked boat, particularly if it was built in at the construction stage.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Padanaram, MA USA
    Posts
    9,263

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    I've heard that there are toxic paints.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Portland, Maine
    Posts
    14,750

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Oh, come on. You know you really want to copper the bottom. Just admit it and get on with it

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    10,545

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    My friends Terry and Linda Wells sailed their wooden sloop "Swift Current" to New Zealand from California. The boat was new and had an adequate amount of bottom paint on her, when they left. Upon arrival, they found that the planking was infested with ship worms at the water line. They took the boat up a river and anchored in the fresh water for a week to kill the worms. A haul out and replacement of the worst planks ensued. After stripping the bottom bare, Terry then coated the bottom planking with creosote folowled by several coats of bottom paint. No more problems with marine borers occurred ever again!

    Creosote is a common wood borer deterrent for wood that goes down to the sea in ships. Some even mix it with bottom paint as a thinner. If you wish to be environmentally correct then don't use it. But, think of all the many hundreds of thousands of pilings, pier timbers and telephone poles that are coated with it and the bottom of your boat becomes insignificant in the scheme of things!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 10-21-2017 at 01:58 PM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    35,178

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Back in the 1970's nylon cloth set in resorcinol resin was used a lot to protect from borers. Nylon is elastic and so will move with the wood.
    The product is called Cascover.

    NES 160:1990

    Cascover Sheathing Application And Repair
    Naval Engineering Standards (UK Ministry of Defence)
    https://infostore.saiglobal.com/stor...oductID=407290
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    120

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Yeah, if it were at all possible to obtain creosote I'd use it, but it just isn't. Plus, I'd like to increase the hull's resistance to abrasion if possible!

    Maybe I'll just paint the planks with this Kevlar-impregnated epoxy product before applying the bottom paint. Does anyone have experience with it?
    Last edited by keck314; 10-21-2017 at 05:00 PM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    2,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    I've heard that there are toxic paints.
    Why? Carvel plank worked for hundreds, maybe thousands of years. Where are you taking this boat that you need all this protection? Is it a large boat? Are you running rivers and landing on sand bars? Or in the post that you quoted, or you going to the Arctic North? Will this boat be in the water 24/7 365?

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    120

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    It's a 30-foot pilot cutter. Definitely no running rivers, and hopefully no sandbars, but ice might be a possibility. Yes, it will live in the water except for the occasional haulout.

    Planking will be 1-1/4" Alaskan Yellow Cedar.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Deer Isle, Maine
    Posts
    1,183

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Quote Originally Posted by keck314 View Post
    Hi all,

    A number of people here have mentioned that coating carvel planks in CPES or some other Epoxy is a potentially good way to deter marine borers, since vapor diffusion through the coating still allows the planks to swell together as they're supposed to. This made me wonder whether it might be possible to increase the abrasion resistance of the wood by bedding a cloth like kevlar or fiberglass in this epoxy as it's being applied. Would that still allow the planks to behave as they're intended to? I'm talking about doing this to individual planks one at a time, rather than encapsulating the whole hull, which I understand can end quite badly. I'm also not talking about gluing the edges of the planks together; the seams would still be caulked traditionally, just between reinforced planks.

    Thanks!
    Are you building, or seriously considering building, a carvel planked boat? Or are you just spit-balling ideas?
    Sounds pretty silly to me. Other, proven options are available.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    120

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackster View Post
    Are you building, or seriously considering building, a carvel planked boat?
    Yes


  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Deer Isle, Maine
    Posts
    1,183

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Wow, keck314 I see you have invested a LOT of effort and disposable income in your project. Looks damn good from here. Congratulation.
    Is there a design/designer involved?
    AYC is a fine planking material and I can see where you are concerned about the longevity of your investment...
    But, if your FIRST concern is with marine borers than your hull material should have been fiberglass or steel or aluminum or ferocement.
    All of which have there own concerns. But you are too far along for that option.
    I guess strip plank and cold mold would be options, but framing schedules for those methods are different, thus the designer question. He/she would know.
    As far as anecdotes are concerned, I know and know of, boats that have sailed around the world, some multiple times, with northern white pine planking and worm shoes and no bug infestation. So I guess anecdotal stories are a wash.
    Diligence with maintenance on traditional carvel boats, and all other types for that matter, is needed.
    Even strip and cold mold, with glass sheathing (and the dreaded CPES slathering) CAN be breached and allow worms access, if hit hard enough.
    But to get back to your proposal, glassing the outside surface of your AYC planks and applying them plank-on-frame style with caulking and paying seams strikes me as at best experimental and bound for failure...worst of both worlds, IMHO.
    Good luck with your decision, update your build here, and keep up the good work.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    2,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by keck314 View Post
    Yes

    I'm sorry, don't you think you're just trying too hard by obsessing over abrasion?

    1.25" AKC is pretty tough alone.

    CPES is usually used on old wood not new.

    Glass cloth on planks just won't work long term. There is a glass composite planking system available for building boats.

    On strip plank hulls, the composite that is developed from glass inside and out makes an incredibly strong hull.

    Good luck!



    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    2,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    I'm sorry, don't you think you're just trying too hard by obsessing over abrasion?

    1.25" AKC is pretty tough alone.

    CPES is usually used on old wood not new.

    Glass cloth on planks just won't work long term. There is a glass composite planking system available for building boats.

    On strip plank hulls, the composite that is developed from glass inside and out makes an incredibly strong hull.

    Good luck!



    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Oh http://seemanncomposites.com/cflex.htm


    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    13,387

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Abrasion resistance?
    2 or 3 layers of dynel.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Deer Isle, Maine
    Posts
    1,183

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Abrasion resistance?
    2 or 3 layers of dynel.
    Over a carvel planked boat??

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    13,387

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Yes. Spline it.
    My first choice for this boat would be a single layer of strip planking, but the caveman rabbet has already been applied.
    Just make the planks narrow and spline em.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Deer Isle, Maine
    Posts
    1,183

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Yes. Spline it.
    Ah, but then it is no longer a carvel planked boat, now is it?
    Last edited by jackster; 10-21-2017 at 07:53 PM.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    120

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Thanks guys! Yeah, I'm probably obsessing about abrasion resistance a bit much, but never having experienced a grounding in anything bigger than a dinghy, I don't really have much of a frame of reference for what 1.25" of AYC is like when it hits something. ...And when faced with a lack of data my inclination is to overbuild.

    Plus, lately I've been reading accounts of boats that have had to bash their way through growlers in the NW passage, so while I don't have any specific plans to head up there, my brain keeps thinking "what if...". Of course it'll probably be open water all the way to the pole by the time I'd be ready to do anything like that, so...

    The design is Lyle Hess's plan 177, i.e. "Taleisin". Lyle's not around anymore, but Lin has been a helpful sounding board for ideas - as has this forum! I'll definitely keep everyone updated - these days, though, those are mostly "well, now there's one less frame left to glue up."

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    San Francisco Bay
    Posts
    11,336

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Creosote. Another very effective old time product that they won't allow to be sold anymore!

    Decent bottom paint is seemingly unobtainable anymore. There used to be one place on some island in the West Indies that still supposedly sells it, but you have to sail their to get it and then smuggle back wherever you came from. The active ingredient of the stuff that used to stop marine borers dead in their tracks is now internationally banned. http://nsglc.olemiss.edu/Advisory/Antifouling.pdf We have to look to some sort of mechanical barrier for wooden hulls. Penetrating epoxy sealer (CPES) seems it may be a good option.
    Last edited by Bob Cleek; 10-21-2017 at 09:16 PM.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Madison Wisconsin
    Posts
    8,536

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    I'm a big fan of epoxy resin and have a fair bit of composite experience, but it strikes me that the potential for future problems from trying to fiberglass the planks of a traditional construction is a lot higher than the potential of serious damage from abrasion on that type of boat. Be aware that the abrasion resistance of composites does not mean they are abrasion-proof. Take a big enough and heavy enough object with enough momentum and hit a rock and you will soon find that your abrasion resistance has some serious limits - especially if it's just a layer or two of fiberglass cloth. With the potential impact force that your boat is likely to be capable of creating, simple fiberglass sheathing on a fairly soft and crush-able wood base isn't likely to do much to prevent damage.

    The other thing to consider is what will happen when you eventually sell the boat. Yes, we all think we love our boats so much that we'll never sell them, but things change over time and it happens frequently. Home brewed epoxy/fiberglass sheathing on a traditional construction type that doesn't usually have it will probably immediately drive away half of your potential buyer pool because they won't trust it. In fact, the more they know (or think they know) about boats and/or composites the less likely they will probably be to have any interest in it, or to take a gamble on an unproven construction method. It looks like you have a good start on a traditionally built boat. It would be a shame to go off the rails and shift it into that "questionable" category.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sweden,Scilly Isles, Siberia
    Posts
    7,922

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    You might also consider what you use for planking. Lots of oak planked boats around here operate in ice. Something that might be of interest; https://www.frim.gov.my/v1/JTFSOnlin...n3/400-412.pdf





    p

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Rockland Maine USA and Woodbridge, Suffolk, England
    Posts
    293

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The product is called Cascover.
    Cascover sheathing was pretty successful. We built several yachts in the 1960's using that, chiefly to protect against marine borers, as an alternative to coppering.

    Here's Tammy Norie, 17 ton 40' ketch in build in 1963. She is iroko on English oak steam bent timbers, copper clench fastened over roves. The seams were caulked with oakum below the waterline and cotton above. The seams below the waterline were filled with resorcinol glue mixed with coconut husk, as were the countersinks over the nails. You can see on the photo that the nylon sheathing has been applied to the underside of the wood keel before the ballast keel was bolted on – so it could be lapped under the actual hull sheathing.

    In those days, The Borden Chemical Co. sent a team up to the yard to apply the nylon - it is glued on with resorcinol resin, with splines and staples securing it until the glue goes off. After that, the bottom is finished conventionally. Several of the boats we built at that time are still just fine, 50+ years on. Tammy Norie unfortunately was destroyed in a fire when in winter storage in Maine – we built a replacement, which is still based in Maine waters.



    Generally I would observe that there's perhaps too much fuss made about shrinking and swelling of carvel boats. If they are properly built, using air-dried timber at about 16% moisture content, and properly fastened and caulked, they cope pretty well with being hauled out for quite long periods - perhaps not in hot dry climates - but certainly in climates like we have here in Maine, or in England, where we regularly hauled out 40+ yachts for winter storage from about October to May without any problems at all. I do think that copper fastenings clenched over roves is superior to screw fastening however in this respect.

    Earlier this year I helped a friend complete the restoration of his Buzzards Bay 14 – she had been out of the water for at least five years and was very dry, with several new planks and new timbers. She was refastened throughout and one of my jobs was to re-caulk her. When she was launched she took up in two or three days – and there was never anything apart from minor seepage anyway.

    I don't think just applying glass or kevlar or whatever just to individual planks is likely to be successful in any respect really. Better to spline the seams underwater and apply cloth all over. I'm not convinced that nylon with resorcinol glue is any more flexible really that dynel and epoxy – though I have no scientific basis for that observation! It's just that resorcinol resin glue is pretty inflexible strong stuff ...

    Cheers -- George
    To be truly free to live, one must be free to think and speak.

    A C Grayling

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    120

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    So based on all this my takeaway seems to be that, while using epoxy a sealer and mechanical worm barrier on carvel planks is probably OK, that kind of application is quite different from applying it in the quantities that would be necessary to glue down fabric.

    In my head I'd been thinking that if epoxy was already being used for the former application, perhaps one might easily add some fibers for additional reinforcement, but the consensus seems pretty clear that that's sketchy practice at best, in addition to being only marginally helpful in a collision situation.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    13,387

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    To be clear, I do not think putting dynel on a carvel boat is sketchy.
    If it is poorly built, tired, rusty or rotten ...surprise, not so good.
    A well built new boat... big plus.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    2,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    To be clear, I do not think putting dynel on a carvel boat is sketchy.
    If it is poorly built, tired, rusty or rotten ...surprise, not so good.
    A well built new boat... big plus.
    Steel boats do have some qualities for cold water & ice. I'm trying to remember, does steel rust Less in cold water than it does in warm water ?

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Rockland Maine USA and Woodbridge, Suffolk, England
    Posts
    293

    Default Re: Reinforcing carvel planks using fabric?

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    To be clear, I do not think putting dynel on a carvel boat is sketchy.
    If it is poorly built, tired, rusty or rotten ...surprise, not so good.
    A well built new boat... big plus.
    Yes - 100%. Plank her with decent dry timber, well fastened with non-ferrous fastenings; caulk (preferably with oakum) and spline the seams (glue splines in with epoxy); apply first coat of epoxy; lay dynel in the second coat; further coats of epoxy as necessary. Shouldn't be a problem and you will be pretty much worm-proof.

    As with Cascover nylon. insert the dynel between the wood keel and the ballast keel. Make the housings for things like the rudder fittings a touch oversize so you can dynel in them. Dynel under the deadwoods and then afterwards maybe fit a hardwood wear shoe. At about 150mm above the waterline run a shallow rebate (about 1.5mm - 2mm) so the dynel fairs into the topsides OK.

    Hitting icebergs is another story - as the Titanic discovered – one layer of dynel won't help much with that.

    Many years ago, we refitted an ex-RNLI lifeboat for a NW Passage attempt – they are a double-diagoinal skin, all copper clenched. We sheathed her with bi-axial glass cloth (kevlar wasn't available at that time) and WEST epoxy – and around the stem and waterline we increased it to several layers. She successfully negotiated the NW Passage, taking three years, overwintering on the ice. But double-diagonal is a very different structure from conventional carvel...

    Cheers -- George
    To be truly free to live, one must be free to think and speak.

    A C Grayling

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •