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Thread: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

  1. #1
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    Default Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    I have a number of leftover western red cedar cove and bead strips from a previous canoe build. There are enough of them that they could be laminated into a blank for the yard for my Caledonia Yawl. The yard, based on the plans, is 2-1/8"X 13 feet long and my strips are 17 (+) feet so no scarfing would be required. It would make do a nice light yardarm but would it be strong enough? There are no fittings that will be screwed to the yard. If it is a reasonable thing to do should I use epoxy for the glue-up or titebond III?

    I would appreciate any knowledgable input.
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    Using up leftover materials is good. Light is good, for a yard. Either adhesive would be fine. But would it be strong enough and have suitable characteristics. I'd say no, and no. 'Strength' in common useage is often a shorthand for MoE... modulus of elasticity. WRC is not 'strong' in that way. But there are other measures of strength, and WRC doesn't measure up well in any of the relevant areas.

    If you do decide to go ahead, I'd recommend one thing. Compare the 'strength' numbers for WRC vs. whatever species was specified (probably Sitka Spruce or Douglas Fir), and beef us the yard scantlings accordingly. That'll at least take one issue off the table.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Using up leftover materials is good. Light is good, for a yard. Either adhesive would be fine. But would it be strong enough and have suitable characteristics. I'd say no, and no. 'Strength' in common useage is often a shorthand for MoE... modulus of elasticity. WRC is not 'strong' in that way. But there are other measures of strength, and WRC doesn't measure up well in any of the relevant areas.

    If you do decide to go ahead, I'd recommend one thing. Compare the 'strength' numbers for WRC vs. whatever species was specified (probably Sitka Spruce or Douglas Fir), and beef us the yard scantlings accordingly. That'll at least take one issue off the table.
    Thanks for your reply, I will review the specs on Sitka Spruce or Douglas Fir vs WRC.
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    Quote Originally Posted by Steamboat View Post
    Thanks for your reply, I will review the specs on Sitka Spruce or Douglas Fir vs WRC.
    Just know that - even if you beef it up a bit - you'll still be pushing the envelope. Have seen a few spars fail under load, and under way... I'm not personally inclined to do that. Not even with my personal projects, where I'm willing to be more experimental. YMMV, of course.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    For a dingy I'd say go for it .
    A CY is not a dingy. Would you build your oars of WRC?
    Not worth the risk for kicks n giggles of using up spare bits.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    Plus the fact that WRC tends to be "brittle", which sorta gets into David's modulus comment, but we're talking about a difference like that between cast iron and steels. Cast iron would have a brittle fracture, while the steel is a bit more "elastic". With a yard being bent, I'd want that elasticity and forgiveness.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  7. #7
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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    Nobody has mentioned the possibility of glassing it. One could even make it in 2 halves, glass the inside, then join the halves and glass the outside.

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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    Right about the glass. WRC canoes and kayaks put all of their loads on the glass skins. The WRC is little more than filler. If you made the spar up of your leftover strips and then laminated a glass sleeve over it, you'd have a pretty strong yard.
    Something like this: http://www.fibreglast.com/product/Br...raided_Sleeves
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Right about the glass. WRC canoes and kayaks put all of their loads on the glass skins. The WRC is little more than filler. If you made the spar up of your leftover strips and then laminated a glass sleeve over it, you'd have a pretty strong yard.
    Something like this:http://www.fibreglast.com/product/Br...raided_Sleeves
    Aye... but then you will very likely have created a yard that is far stiffer than the designer planned on. To some extent - the sailmaker (if he's both engaged and knowledgeable) can obviate that effect some. But enough? I don't know.

    We're getting further and further into uncharted waters - which are typically full of 'unintended consequences'.

    I'd say - give up the lovely fantasy of using up your cedar, and just Build To Plan. Always the best idea anyway.

    It's all very well to speculate, invent, McGuyver, and cobble together a creative approach... but - in the end - someone is going to have to SAIL this boat.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    Thank you all for your input. At this point I feel the consensus is don't push your luck. I will default to the designers plan for Douglas Fir.
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    How about do both and compare the results?

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    You will be thankful if you make it light. Hollow doug fir constructed by the birdsmouth method is a good way to go.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    Most sailmakers would delight in a yard which is "too stiff". One of the biggest hassles we face in designing and cutting sails is making allowances for spar bend. If you cut the sail to account for all the potential bend in windy conditions, that excess tends to create too much unwanted draft in light air. In 37 years of making sails, nobody ever brought me a spar which was too stiff unless it was dimensionally way too thick. In that case, it was much more a weight aloft problem than one of stiffness.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    There you go, from an expert! TWO layers of glass on the outside, I say!

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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Right about the glass. WRC canoes and kayaks put all of their loads on the glass skins. The WRC is little more than filler. If you made the spar up of your leftover strips and then laminated a glass sleeve over it, you'd have a pretty strong yard.
    Something like this:http://www.fibreglast.com/product/Br...raided_Sleeves
    Your suggestion kept tickling my brain so I did a rough calculation: DF spar would be 10.2lb base on average density and the WRC spar with your 10oz glass sleeve plus epoxy would be about 7.4lb. A 30% reduction in weight aloft is not a trivial difference. It is not a cheep experiment but how would you test the glassed WRC/glass spar before putting it into service? OK, to some this is a risky idea but what if we learn something new from it?

    I'm not about to put this spar into service and take my wife sailing with an experimental entity unless there is a rational way to test it without destroying it.
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    What are the dimensions of your WRC strips?

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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenbauer View Post
    what are the dimensions of your wrc strips?
    1/4" x 3/4"
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    I was thinking you could glue two strips together to make one stave for a birdsmouth spar. But 1/2” by 3/4” staves gives you a spar of just under 2” diameter. If the solid fir spar should be 2 1/8” and a hollow spar should be bumped up 10% I’d also want to bump it a bit extra for the less strong wood. Maybe 2 3/8” or so. That means your extra strips won’t really help you out here.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Laminating Western Red Cedar Cove And Bead Strips to Make Yard

    It sure looks to me that those scantlings are figured for stiffness, not for ultimate strength. I can't imagine breaking that yard, short of sailing under a low bridge. The only detail you might want to consider for peace of mind is to fit a solid plug where the halyard will be made off.
    -Dave

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