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Thread: BSA Girls

  1. #36
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    I like you, Tom.
    So many questions, so little time.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    Let's even things up a bit…….
    Last edited by skuthorp; 10-12-2017 at 06:32 AM.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  4. #39
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    Is this a BSA or a Triumph?

    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  5. #40
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    Watch out for loose gravel…………….

    Ouch!!

  6. #41
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Triumph of what?
    of the modern textile industry.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  7. #42
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    I say Triumph.

    Doesn't that perky blond in green look like Doris Day?
    Gerard>
    Everett, WA

    RESIST. FIGHT THE POWER.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    Enfields, real ones…………….

  9. #44
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    I fully support it. I read where Cub packs would be separate for boys/girls, and possibly Scouts also.
    No idea how it will work out.
    I have 4 daughters and a son - ALL love to camp, and would have benefited from the type of program Boy Scouts offer. They envy my son and I taking off for weekends. (We did alot as a family also)
    But Girl Scouts never did it for them.
    TZ
    "One can say with certainty that he is not with us at present. It is worth adding, however, that he himself did not always understand what time ought to be considered the present." - Laurus, Eugene Vodolazkin.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    As a current Assistant Scoutmaster, I don't think we're really treading any new ground, here. "Traditionalists" will certainly take issue with the announcement, but it really is an effort to improve enrollment which has been flagging, regardless of all the support people claim for the organization. How many who are complaining about this move currently have children enrolled in either Boy Scouting or Girl Scouting?

    All children will benefit from what the program has to offer in terms of life skills, citizenship and the self-confidence that is the goal. There currently are co-ed programs for older Scouts including Explorer Posts, the Venture Scouting program, and Sea Scouting. I don't see anything new under the sun, really.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  11. #46
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Let's even things up a bit…….
    Ish... aren't you going to post some maundering screed protesting the fact that the MAN got to go topless, but none of the women posted were so attired?
    David G
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    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  12. #47
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    My wife was a Girl Scout Leader for a good many years. She took her girls camping every month regardless of the weather (snow, rain included). They cooked over open fires, slept in cabins, lean-to's and tents. Each girl had to bring her Scout Knife to school so as to have it ready for her weekly Scout meeting. They learned ropes, hiking, horseback riding and other "boy" things, but they also enjoyed being girls...sewing, proper makeup, appropriate fashion. Once in a while, Catherine will see one of her girls, and she many times gets a "Thank You for your Help". I think they appreciated what she did.

    I know she did a lot for those girls, and I don't believe she could have done it with boys in the mix....And, it isn't easy to get women to lead "Boy" Scouts and bond as she did with those lucky girls.

    kg
    \"Of all the things I\'ve lost, I miss my mind the most.\"

  13. #48
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    Kevin,

    I don't see that being an issue with what is being proposed for the Cub Scout program. They're proposing separate dens or even packs for girls, so they can choose to add program they want.

    One of the things you proposed - sewing - should be a skill that the boys get as well. Appropriate fashion isn't a bad idea either.

    I think that proposals for adding girls to Boy Scout troops will be similar with patrols that are made up of young women. Being that the program is "boy run" and will be "girl run", they'll be able to choose what the patrol does with the appropriate adult guidance.

    As a society, there are very few places that we work to segregate people by sex - other than bathrooms. I'm thinking if this reflects the real world better, what's the problem?
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  14. #49
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    "...In fact, the Boy Scouts already offer several co-ed programs and have for years. They include Venturing and Exploring, which bring activities and career training to boys and girls..."

  15. #50
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    I've lost track of the number of advocates for girls' education who have passionately supported girls-only schools, girls-only science and math classes, girls-only programs to interest kids in learning computer coding, etc.

    In some cases, folks have justified these by arguing that there are systematic gendered prejudices, which prevent girls from learning or wanting to learn. That a significant number of girls would only really succeed in making up lost ground was to remove the gender-competition stuff which is holding them back.

    In other cases, folks have justified gender specific education by talking about statistically valid differences in physical, intellectual, and emotional development. That the way girls and boys learn at the same ages are different, due to these physiologically driven differences in maturation. That girls' language and critical-analytical skills develop sooner, and that separating classes by gender will enable girls (and secondarily, boys) to reach their fullest potential by orienting pedagogy to follow these different gender/age typical capacities.

    If either of those arguments which most commonly are offered to support girls-only programming are valid, then shouldn't they similarly apply here? Are there gendered benefits which girls at this age would actually lose, compared with a similar set of program objectives delivered in a same-sex context? And if those arguments aren't valid for Scouting type activities, why are they obviously more valid in school contexts?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  16. #51
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    I've lost track of the number of advocates for girls' education who have passionately supported girls-only schools, girls-only science and math classes, girls-only programs to interest kids in learning computer coding, etc.

    In some cases, folks have justified these by arguing that there are systematic gendered prejudices, which prevent girls from learning or wanting to learn. That a significant number of girls would only really succeed in making up lost ground was to remove the gender-competition stuff which is holding them back.

    In other cases, folks have justified gender specific education by talking about statistically valid differences in physical, intellectual, and emotional development. That the way girls and boys learn at the same ages are different, due to these physiologically driven differences in maturation. That girls' language and critical-analytical skills develop sooner, and that separating classes by gender will enable girls (and secondarily, boys) to reach their fullest potential by orienting pedagogy to follow these different gender/age typical capacities.

    If either of those arguments which most commonly are offered to support girls-only programming are valid, then shouldn't they similarly apply here? Are there gendered benefits which girls at this age would actually lose, compared with a similar set of program objectives delivered in a same-sex context? And if those arguments aren't valid for Scouting type activities, why are they obviously more valid in school contexts?
    I get your perspective, but if that's the case, why do we educate boys and girls together in public schools?

    For the outdoor skills, I don't see a difference in teaching them to young women or young men.

    I do see a difference in some of the social and psychological developments and for that, the young women might be an excellent example for the young men - plus the opportunity for young men to form better behavioral patterns around those of the opposite sex. One of the key differences that I notice around my own son - having grown up with a sister - is his treatment of young women his age versus those of his male friends without sisters or other close female examples of a similar age.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  17. #52
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    Scouts Canada has been unconditionally co-ed since 1998, and there was lots of phase-in stages: Rovers, 1971, Venturers, 1984, all sections on a local option, 1992. As many have pointed out, it is neither good nor bad, but it is different. I was a youth in the program for 15 years, all non-co-ed (except Rovers, which lofty perch I never attained), and a leader for 15 years, all of it co-ed. I was a Scout leader, Venturer advisor, and even lucky enough to be a Rover advisor for a short time.

    I did not find much difference at the Scout age. However, I found the Venturers (14 -17) tended to morph into a situation where the girls run the show as the group organizers (chairpersons, secretaries, treasurers etc.), providing the "soft" skills, and the guys provided the "hard" skills required, like setting up the tents and tarps, setting camp menus, organizing gear for camps, etc. This is natural, as Venturers are supposed to run their own programs, electing their own company officers. The girls tend to have these skills already, so they get these positions, as it is easily recognized by the whole company that they are the best ones for the job. The problem is that this means the guys do not get a chance to develop these skills. The Rovers (17 - 26) were better balanced, but I believe that may be because the guys in the Rover crews had come out of all-male troops and Venturer companies, so they had the soft skills as well as the hard ones.

    My knowledge of Scouts Canada is 15 years out of date. I was a leader during the transition from all-male to mostly-male to balanced-genders in membership. That meant the girls in my Venturer company had not come up through the system from Beavers, Cubs, and Scouts. If they had, perhaps they would have had the hard skills too. But I suspect they would still have been the better organizers, and the guys would again have been left, by their own choice, as the "grunts".

    This is the biggest drawback that I have seen to girls in Scouts. Whether this situation has changed, I do not know.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    #54. My experience too, especially the differences in organising skills. I rather thought that mirrored the situation at home.

    I too ran the gamut from cubs to rovers and then scouter and eventually group leader. Started in sea scouts, boy was I lucky there.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    I get your perspective, but if that's the case, why do we educate boys and girls together in public schools?

    For the outdoor skills, I don't see a difference in teaching them to young women or young men.

    I do see a difference in some of the social and psychological developments and for that, the young women might be an excellent example for the young men - plus the opportunity for young men to form better behavioral patterns around those of the opposite sex. One of the key differences that I notice around my own son - having grown up with a sister - is his treatment of young women his age versus those of his male friends without sisters or other close female examples of a similar age.
    It's my perspective, Canoez, that advocates of whatever position shouldn't be permitted to have it both ways.

    If a girls-only physics class is crucial so girls can break free of negative cultural messages and be confident enough to outperform the boys ... why isn't that operative when it comes to learning to portage a canoe or build a shelter? What mattered at 10 this morning doesn't matter at 7 tonight?

    I like co-ed programming mostly - and agree with the socialization benefits. We use it in our dojo, and my kids have taught all permutations of gender groupings how to canoe, swim, sing, play drums, etc. It is interesting, though, to see how the trajectory of what folks learn more easily (and how they learn) changes if for one week you're teaching a single-gender group, and the next week it's co-ed.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  20. #55
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    I say Triumph.

    Doesn't that perky blond in green look like Doris Day?
    Funnily enough, I found another pic of the same woman... same helmet and what looks like the same bike. It had what appears to be a badge saying "OHC" behind her leg.... a bit like the one that appears on a DOHC Honda 450. It had me beat at that stage... and I had other things to do.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  21. #56
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    Default Re: BSA Girls


  22. #57
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    Default Re: BSA Girls


  23. #58
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    Default Re: BSA Girls


  24. #59
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    Things Boys Could Learn at Girl Scouts

    https://nyti.ms/2kJSk8N

    Merit badge for dentistry seems sketchy! But looking at the requirements, not as deep as one might expect, no actual surgery or fillings.


    I think there needs to be a merit badge for BBQ. Because it's BBQ. And MacGyvering; give them a problem where they need to improvise a solution from common household items in the time typical for between TV commercials.


    For both: Flirting for Males, Flirting for Females. I can't think of a more basic and needed skill.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  26. #61
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    Default Re: BSA Girls

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    Things Boys Could Learn at Girl Scouts

    https://nyti.ms/2kJSk8N

    Merit badge for dentistry seems sketchy! But looking at the requirements, not as deep as one might expect, no actual surgery or fillings.


    I think there needs to be a merit badge for BBQ. Because it's BBQ. And MacGyvering; give them a problem where they need to improvise a solution from common household items in the time typical for between TV commercials.


    For both: Flirting for Males, Flirting for Females. I can't think of a more basic and needed skill.
    Great article. Thanks.
    "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Alice

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