Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: A different patriotism question

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    20,847

    Default A different patriotism question

    I am always impressed by the visible patriotism of those who have not served. Sometimes, it seems, they can be the most patriotic of us all.

    So here is a question for only those who have served:

    Do you believe that anyone for any reason should be forced to stand for the National Anthem and why?

    If you have not served, your opinion is not requested. I have not served, so I will not answer.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    3,734

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    Of course not. It's all about personal choice and freedom of expression.

    Nor should they be forced to participate in combat, except upon invasion of their country, although requiring alternate service makes sense to me.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Rockford, IL
    Posts
    8,396

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    No. (that was supposed to be a one-word reply, however, the wonderful WB software will not accept a reply that short)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Mississippi Gulf Coast
    Posts
    596

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    Loaded question.
    Do you believe that anyone for any reason should be forced to stand for the National Anthem and why?
    Yes. Active, on-duty military members under most circumstance must stand.

    Everybody else? Nope. Never. It is a choice. You are not disrespecting me (veteran) or our country by not standing. That is your right and I offered to die to protect it.

    Jack
    Jack
    Nicotine free since 1 October 2009

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    20,847

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    Quote Originally Posted by JTA View Post
    Loaded question....
    Yes. Active, on-duty military members under most circumstance must stand.
    You are, of course, correct. I thought of this when I asked the question, but I tried to hard to keep it too simple.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Sequim, Washington
    Posts
    4,717

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I am always impressed by the visible patriotism of those who have not served. Sometimes, it seems, they can be the most patriotic of us all.

    So here is a question for only those who have served:

    Do you believe that anyone for any reason should be forced to stand for the National Anthem and why?

    If you have not served, your opinion is not requested. I have not served, so I will not answer.
    The true reason to serve is to preserve the right NOT to be forced into false allegiance.

    If my country, whom I pay to function, does stupid $hit I am required (peacefully) to call them out. The flag is a peace of cloth, the anthem is a song...nothing more.

    If by kneeling during the song to call these boneheads out...so be it!

    The whole place is only as good as its citizens.

    Perhaps US Military in uniform and under arms, but following amoral orders is wrong.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Sequim, Washington
    Posts
    4,717

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    One more thought, beware this patriot crap, its a diversion to take your eyes off the real sins..the stupid, criminal $hit I was speaking of previously.

    If we are that stupid and easily manipulated as a country the flag and song mean absolutely nothing!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    46,074

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    Excuse me, but what does 'serve' mean? Does it mean being in the US military? Why is that better than 'serving' in, oh, let's say the Child Protection Department, or the Peace Corps, or the EPA, or the Center for Victims of Torture, or the Red Cross, or whatever? Why should it matter? The last war we fought to actually defend the US against a serious threat ended in 1945. All of them since, right or wrong, have been optional, either to help other folks or to advance our foreign policy or both.

    (Sorry, just feeling a little ornery today.)
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    20,847

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Excuse me, but what does 'serve' mean? Does it mean being in the US military? Why is that better than 'serving' in, oh, let's say the Child Protection Department, or the Peace Corps, or the EPA, or the Center for Victims of Torture, or the Red Cross, or whatever? Why should it matter? The last war we fought to actually defend the US against a serious threat ended in 1945. All of them since, right or wrong, have been optional, either to help other folks or to advance our foreign policy or both.

    (Sorry, just feeling a little ornery today.)
    There is no difference. I limited it to the military because that seems to be the go-to choice for this president and the Republicans. I expect that the same military that they profess to be defending will renounce this shallow display of false patriotism and I did not want to give some people a means of diverting the discussion away from the core issue.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    28,340

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    The BEST response I have heard is from our very own Chad Smith

    Betrayal

    CHAD SMITH·TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2017




    Betrayal


    CHAD SMITH·TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2017

    Let no one doubt my Patriotism or my love of country. Thirty one years (and counting) of military service. I’ve never backed down and I’ve always paid the upmost respect to our country, our flag, and our citizens. Doubt me not when I say I love my country.
    You may ask what it is that I love about the USofA? Well the answer to that can be found in our Constitution and the Bill of Rights. This document outlines the basic freedoms that we enjoy, the freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, protection of the right of life and liberty. These rights and freedoms and many more can be found within that great document. When you get down to the nuts and bolts, what I love about my Country is that our founding fathers built this nation based on these rights and freedoms, free from the oppression of others. Sure we’ve had our bumps and bruises and we have a long way to go, but with our Constitution as the basic building block we can achieve a true equality of man.

    We’ve come a long way but yet we still have a long way to go. As a middle aged Southern white male maybe I haven’t seen how severe the racial difference is, maybe I do experience “white privilege”. So I’m probably not in position to say how others have been wronged. What I can say though is if there is a perception of wrong and it is very deeply seated that somewhere there is a kernel of truth. I can’t be blinded by my own safe and secure life to the troubles of others. Just because I don’t see it doesn’t mean that it isn’t there. When others talk about how they are oppressed or treated differently because of race and the call is repeated loudly and often, then I have to take notice and start to believe that yes there is a problem.

    I love football, I love the thrill of the game and all the excitement that goes with the winning and all the sorrow that goes with losing. Football is that escape from the drudgery of life, it allows us to step outside of ourselves and to be part of something bigger, but at the end of the day I understand that this is just a game. Here of late however the game I love has been buried in a muck of controversy as players kneel during the National Anthem. This is not the protest I would choose.

    I love my country and it brings a tear to my eye when I listen to the National Anthem, I think about all those rights and freedoms that was earned through the blood of others. I have a stirring in my heart as I think of all my brothers and sisters I served with over the years. I’m filled with pride as I think of my time served, of the times I spent away from my family so they and others could enjoy the rights and freedoms our forefathers fought for and established for us. I think of how brother fought brother to hold our nation together. I think of how not once but twice our grandfathers and fathers went off to help stop the spread of evil on the other side of the world. I think of our brothers and sisters that went around the world to spend their lives in defense of others. Of how we have tried to do our part to stop the spread of terror. And I also think about those great leaders that have struggled to bring us to the point where all men are equal.

    On game day when I see players take a knee during the National Anthem I am not angered. I don’t take a personal affront to their kneeling, I don’t feel disrespected because of these actions. What I do feel is sadness deep in my heart. A feeling of betrayal, not by them, but a betrayal of us. The blood of our fathers has given us the foundations for the greatest nation ever, a nation where all are equal, a nation where brother and sisters stand arm in arm regardless of race or ethnic background. We as citizens, we as brothers & sisters, we have betrayed that trust given to us by these great men. When our fellow man feels so wronged, when injustice is so great, when this man feels that to make himself heard he has to take a knee during the National Anthem, yes friends WE have betrayed him!

    These men are not “Sons of Bitches”, they aren’t disrespecting the flag. These men are taking a knee, crying out for help because we have betrayed them. There is an old saying “if there is smoke there is a fire”, well maybe these men have opened our eyes to the fire. If they choose to kneel in peaceful protest, I personally will defend their right even as I stand beside them with my hand on my heart.




    This post is temporary and my disappear at the discretion of the managment

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    27,902

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I am always impressed by the visible patriotism of those who have not served. Sometimes, it seems, they can be the most patriotic of us all.

    So here is a question for only those who have served:

    Do you believe that anyone for any reason should be forced to stand for the National Anthem and why?

    If you have not served, your opinion is not requested. I have not served, so I will not answer.
    Why is this only for those who served? How about those who tried to enlist but were turned down? Is being in the military something that makes one's views on patriotism more important or valid?
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    46,074

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    Well done, Chad.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    20,847

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Why is this only for those who served? How about those who tried to enlist but were turned down? Is being in the military something that makes one's views on patriotism more important or valid?
    Two reasons:

    1) We have nut jobs in our country who are making "take a knee" all about the troops.

    2) There are other threads where everyone else can contribute.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,120

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    I swore an oath back in '70 when I joined the "mob", to the best of my knowlage it has not been recinded. As a civilian, I "stand at ease" and face the flag. I do get upset when proper etiquete is not afforded ANY national flag, but especially mine. I'm not of any particular religious affilaition, but I will remove my head dress and remain silent while prayers are said. Make no mistake, I have no shame to say I served, both in the military and fire service, but I must say my volunteer service (Westfall Cole Harbour Fire Department) was most educating and rewarding.(spirtually)

    Dumah
    Duct tape can't fix stupid but it will muffle the sound

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Sequim, Washington
    Posts
    4,717

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    Quote Originally Posted by Dumah View Post
    I swore an oath back in '70 when I joined the "mob", to the best of my knowlage it has not been recinded. As a civilian, I "stand at ease" and face the flag. I do get upset when proper etiquete is not afforded ANY national flag, but especially mine. I'm not of any particular religious affilaition, but I will remove my head dress and remain silent while prayers are said. Make no mistake, I have no shame to say I served, both in the military and fire service, but I must say my volunteer service (Westfall Cole Harbour Fire Department) was most educating and rewarding.(spirtually)

    Dumah
    That's a good response..I concur.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Sequim, Washington
    Posts
    4,717

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    I feel all these categories separate us in so meany ways, especially from women. My wife is a Vietnam era veteran and has lost the same trust ,as myself, in this whole BS system.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Tacoma, WA
    Posts
    7,827

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    In his book "In The Garden Of Beasts" Eric Larson tells about the Nazi thugs on the streets of Berlin who would attack anyone, native or visitor, who failed to salute the flag. Usually it was when a car drove past bearing a flag, any and all were expected to turn and salute.
    “What, Me Worry?". -. A. E. Newman

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,120

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    Thank you Paul, my eyes leak.

    Dumah
    Duct tape can't fix stupid but it will muffle the sound

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Sequim, Washington
    Posts
    4,717

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    Quote Originally Posted by Dumah View Post
    Thank you Paul, my eyes leak.

    Dumah
    Indeed, even after 40 some years, I sit in the dark of the night alone.

    And my eyes leak as well.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Port Richey
    Posts
    11,325

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I am always impressed by the visible patriotism of those who have not served. Sometimes, it seems, they can be the most patriotic of us all.

    So here is a question for only those who have served:

    Do you believe that anyone for any reason should be forced to stand for the National Anthem and why?

    If you have not served, your opinion is not requested. I have not served, so I will not answer.
    Served for almost 50 years (active duty and DoD civil service). The only folks that should be required to stand are military "in uniform" as current regulations dictate. The rest of us, not so much.
    Tom

    "Leave the gun, take the cannolis"

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    14,852

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    The essence of patriotism is putting the interests of others ahead of your own. To brag about it is contradictory.

    To answer the question, no, no one should be forced to stand. That's part of of what my service was for.

    The reason to narrow it down to military is because people like to appoint themselves spokesmen. Why should there be a spokesman for someone who's standing right there? Why the middleman?

    With Trump as President I don't want to hear about respect for service from any Republican.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    This week, it is Robert E. Lee and this week, Stonewall Jackson. Is it George Washington next? You have to ask yourself, where does it stop?

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    44,348

    Default Re: A different patriotism question

    I knew a WW2 Grenadier Guards veteran, who after the war transferred to the medic/musician branch. Said he'd played the National Anthem so many times in service that when retired he refused to stand any more.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •