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Thread: Skin on Frame fabric question

  1. #1
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    Default Skin on Frame fabric question

    I'm considering an sof build and am unsure about fabric. I expect I would use polyester, 8 to 12 ounce. Kudzu refers to this as Dacron. Is this just sail cloth? What material should I be shopping for and where? I'm on southern Vancouver Island.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Sail cloth has its weave filled, so I am not sure that it would drape to follow the 3d shapes. Is there also not a requirement to heat shrink with a hot air gun to remove the last of the wrinkles?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Dude, Get it from Jeff or Dyson or someone. It’s worth it.
    The stuff you want is uncoated, unfilled, uncalendared, un-whatever else they do to fabrics.

    I’ve done sof in cotton, nylon, paper (yes, don’t) and most recently Dacron, which I got from Jeff. It is awesome stuff. It stitches well, shrinks a bit (some of it) with heat, doesn’t dramatically change tension (ahem),is plenty resistant to puncture, and takes finish well.

    I like to use the lightest cloth I can. My 12 foot kayak is going in three years with some 6-8 ounce (I disremember) poly made from recycled bottles. Hehe.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    George Dyson is great to order from, and local-ish for you. I can get you his contact info if you shoot me a PM.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    The real light aircraft wing skinning dacron needs t.l.c, 8 to 12 oz poly or nylon not so much.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    George Dyson is great to order from, and local-ish for you. I can get you his contact info if you shoot me a PM.

    Tom
    .
    George Dyson is very good to deal with , and quick , in my experience.
    Regards Rob J.

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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    I'm considering an sof build and am unsure about fabric. I expect I would use polyester, 8 to 12 ounce. Kudzu refers to this as Dacron. Is this just sail cloth? What material should I be shopping for and where? I'm on southern Vancouver Island.
    Hi Jim
    George Dyson - GDyson@gmail.com Email him direct to order. Check out his stuff here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fbujyoc1o9...Notes.pdf?dl=0 He's got the best prices, the best service, and is just over in Bellingham.

    Dacron is a trade name for polyester fabric. Sailcloth is typically lightweight Dacron with the weave filled with various resins, as noted already.
    You'll likely want to use uncoated 8oz polyester for skinning, depending on what you are building. It heat shrinks pretty well, and takes a lot of different coatings - including just oil based paint.
    If you anticipate very rough usage, you might consider skinning with 8-12oz nylon, which is somewhat stronger than the same weight of polyester fabric. It has a few issues, though. Feel free to PM me at GentryCustomBoats@yahoo.com if you have any questions - skinning or otherwise. I'm happy to pontificate.

    What are you building?
    Dave

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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Dyson is good. Another source is The Skinboat Store. If you look around that site, you'll find all sorts of information and tutorials that are well worth studying before you get to work.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    I'll add my vote to Dyson. I used nylon I think. I forget the weight. My last boat I gave 5 coats of that stuff you put on hard wood floors. Tuff as nails and going strong 5 plus years later. Sand lightly between coats.
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    ...What are you building?
    Dave
    Going to self design a pair of simple outriggers for our canoe-ish 19'x4.5' plywood boat, currently powered by outboard, so we can sail it. Not sure if I'll go for vee bottom or dory hulls. They will probably be only 8 feet long. For this boat:



    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    And if all goes well, meaning I enjoy the building process, I'd consider an SOF row/sail.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    That's the latest iteration of the stretched pram? <thumbs up>

    Ken

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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Quote Originally Posted by IHWillys View Post
    That's the latest iteration of the stretched pram? <thumbs up>

    Ken
    Yup! I think I'm finally done with the faster/longer/higher theme. It's a really handy size now. Can hardly wait for next year's camping and fishing season. I'm sure someone with a little more nerve than me would be fine sailing it as is, but I want the skin on frame training wheels to put myself at ease with capsize issues.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    That boat could easily be sailed as is.
    Well with a centerboard of some kind.
    And reinforcement for a rig.

    Just pick a reasonable size rig.
    And build a rudder.
    And get the center of pressure of the sail right compared to the centerboard.
    And a few other details.

    Good luck, pictures.

    I didn't see the row/sail SOF you are considering??

    I also like dacron from Dyson.

    Have you ever seen the book about George Dyson and his father - "The Starship and the Canoe"? I really enjoyed it.

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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Yup! I think I'm finally done with the faster/longer/higher theme. It's a really handy size now. Can hardly wait for next year's camping and fishing season. I'm sure someone with a little more nerve than me would be fine sailing it as is, but I want the skin on frame training wheels to put myself at ease with capsize issues.

    Completely cool.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    That boat could easily be sailed as is.
    Well with a centerboard of some kind.
    And reinforcement for a rig.

    Just pick a reasonable size rig.
    And build a rudder.
    And get the center of pressure of the sail right compared to the centerboard.
    And a few other details.

    Good luck, pictures.

    I didn't see the row/sail SOF you are considering??

    I also like dacron from Dyson.

    Have you ever seen the book about George Dyson and his father - "The Starship and the Canoe"? I really enjoyed it.
    I have all kinds of sails and necessary spars collecting dust in the garage rafters, as well as rudder(s). It's already fully reinforced for whatever rig I end up with. I have a vague idea that I could end up with three sails, so it will be yawl rigged, with the rig spread out over as much length as possible, making it a little easier to compensate for poor rig balance and design. So I have a jib of about 30 sf, a four sided main of about 70 or 80 sf (can't remember exactly) and a four sided mizzen of around 25 sq. I'll probably fit a single daggerboard to one side of the hull...I'll keep an eye out for that book. Haven't given too much thought to a future skin on frame row/sailer but paddle sail might make more sense, so a sailing canoe, perhaps.
    Last edited by JimD; 10-11-2017 at 07:21 PM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Completely cool.
    Currently powered by a six horse, but as soon as I get numbers on the side as required by law, I will put the 15 hp Yammy on it as I'd much rather run the quiet smooth 15 at lower rpm than endure the noise and shake of the six working harder. And to go with the outriggers, eventually up to three sails since I already have them.
    Last edited by JimD; 10-11-2017 at 07:24 PM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Going to self design a pair of simple outriggers for our canoe-ish 19'x4.5' plywood boat, currently powered by outboard, so we can sail it. Not sure if I'll go for vee bottom or dory hulls. They will probably be only 8 feet long. For this boat:
    I would go for "V" section. That will generate more side force than dory shaped.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    V shaped outriggers do develop more side force. They also develop more drag and less righting force. And they have to be sunk deeper to generate the righting force, resulting in more heel - defeating one benefit of outriggers. You really should generate side force with something efficient - a centerboard or leeboard type foil.

    Of course you could make them really big, adding weight and cost to build.

    Longer narrower ones will also have less drag and cost less in interference waves between main hull and outrigger.

    Sorry if I'm preaching to the choir.

    Check out the justification for rectangular outriggers with the W17 and Seaclipper trimarans.
    I wouldn't make them out of SOF -

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    And if you're going to the trouble to add them, make them longer than 8'. I'd say 12' minimum. Otherwise they'll just create a lot of drag. As long as they can stow inside the boat for transport, they're not too long.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    I purchased my SOF supplies from here ... http://shop.skinboats.com. They're in Anacortes.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    And if you're going to the trouble to add them, make them longer than 8'. I'd say 12' minimum. Otherwise they'll just create a lot of drag. As long as they can stow inside the boat for transport, they're not too long.
    I had in mind something between the 4' minis on the Solway canoe





    ...and the 12 footers on the Osprey

    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    I wouldn't make them out of SOF -
    I get it, but I'm so sick of plywood and goop.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Strip plank. Can make a nice looking shape for once.
    I agree with you about plywood.
    Not so much about goop/ frozen snot.

    Got it now. You're looking for training wheels, not trimaran floats.
    I was assuming a significant volume of the float in a short length.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    Strip plank. Can make a nice looking shape for once.
    I agree with you about plywood.
    Not so much about goop/ frozen snot.

    Got it now. You're looking for training wheels, not trimaran floats.
    I was assuming a significant volume of the float in a short length.
    Yes, more the training wheel concept than the full tri experience. The boat itself is 42" beam waterline and 54 at the rail and around a 16 ft waterline it has quite a bit of stability. Don't really want twice as much boat by adding big outriggers, just looking for some help in the gusts...I've strip planked a few boaty accessories and I don't think I want to go that way, either. I think if I have any future in boat building it will be ultralight fabric boats.
    Last edited by JimD; 10-13-2017 at 10:01 AM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I would go for "V" section. That will generate more side force than dory shaped.
    Edited: I may yet go for vees. Haven't decided yet. Vees would be lower volume and these will already be short.
    Last edited by JimD; 10-13-2017 at 09:59 AM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Thoughts on asymmetric hulls that were absolutely flat on the outside? Super easy to design and build. Somewhat like this illustration only without the slight curve.





    Also, straight on the inside or straight on the outside? I've seen them drawn up both ways. Is it worth worrying about considering given the size of the outriggers and the patchwork boat they're going on? Short asymmetric hulls would have short radius curves on the curved side. That might make bending the wood stringers tricky.
    Last edited by JimD; 10-13-2017 at 11:14 AM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Asymmetric dory hulls?

    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    I once saw a thread where the OP wanted to use Hobie 16 hulls as outriggers to make a trimaran.
    He "thought" it would be better with the curve on the outside and was unhappy it didn't work.

    So I suggested he reverse them (to copy the original Hobie).
    The boat then worked as he imagined. Fairly decent lateral area function.

    Recently I saw an explanation of a W17 trimaran with the curve on the outside. Just wanted to shake my head.
    With previous (attempted) conversations with the designer, it would do no good to make a comment.

    Centerboards are still best.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    This selection process seems to be driven mainly by my personal laziness and desire to have something done quick and easy. Also, I've been building in plywood for so long I tend to think in terms of simple and not compound curves. I need not do that for sof. A double ended deep vee with curved sides ought be doable with polyester over frame, yes? Like type B

    Last edited by JimD; 10-13-2017 at 12:37 PM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Any one of those will work in SOF.
    But so will rectangular section, or fully curved like a kayak.
    The only thing you don't want to try is a concave (hollow) section.

    Take a look at Dave Gentry's boats.

    Are you actually thinking about outriggers from SOF? Use a heavy cloth, IMHO.

    Think about the fact that in light air, the outrigger will not be depressed in the water much at all.
    That means no contribution to the lateral area (resistance to slip).
    So if you care about light air, you need plenty of board anyway. So you don't need the outrigger lateral area.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    So how about round bottom double ended outriggers and a board on the boat, somewhere, most likely on the side so I don't have to cut a hole in the hull and build a trunk.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    It fits my bias.
    You must be a smart guy!!!

    Good luck with whatever you choose.
    Pictures.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Skin on Frame fabric question

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    ...
    You must be a smart guy!!! .
    I'm learning
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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