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Thread: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

  1. #1
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    Default Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Looking for advice on best additive to make non sag epoxy glue.

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    I can add enough of pretty much any powder to thick it up.

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    If making a glue, stay away from the fairing mixes (microballons).
    I like to add wood flour and silica for glue ups. If I think that something really critical then I might choose a purpose made additive like West system 404.

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    I can add enough of pretty much any powder to thick it up.
    I thought the same thing.

    Well, my answer was more along the lines of, “Lots.”

    Really, though, be careful, and keep track of your mixes. Make little recipes for easily repeatable batches. The line between too soft and too stiff a mix can be very fine, though, so take care.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    I like colloidal silica for non-sagging mixtures. Duckworks has it fairly cheap:

    http://m.duckworksbbs.com/supplies/a...lica/index.htm

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    As usual... the answer to 'best' is: It Depends. What task will you be using it for?

    Have I mentioned lately how much I hate these bald questions with no background and no details? I haven't? Well I do. I find it aggravating. It usually provokes lots of responses which 'might' be correct... or not. It's not until we chivvy the requisite facts out of the OP that it becomes apparent that most of us were on the wrong track all along.

    I'd really prefer that queries err on the side of Too Much info, rather than Too Little. Really, really!!! Not trying to pick you YOU Oldad... just an ongoing pet peeve.
    Last edited by David G; 10-10-2017 at 12:22 PM.
    David G
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    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Or... you could keep the details to yourself, and just read up on your own, until you are satisfied about the answer --

    West System -- http://www.westsystem.com/the-gougeo...-construction/

    System 3 -- https://www.systemthree.com/pages/literature

    Russell Brown -- http://newcollege.net/wp-content/upl...ics_e-book.pdf
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    "Non sag epoxy glue" implies structural gluing, does it not? It didn't seem like that vague of a question to me.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    We want non sag for fairing as well.
    Non sag can be anything from 404 to 410. Big difference.

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    "Non sag epoxy glue" implies structural gluing, does it not? It didn't seem like that vague of a question to me.

    Tom
    'Non-sagging' is pretty clear, with little room for ambiguity. But not NO room.

    'glue' is a term thrown around, often incorrectly, for a variety of actual resin uses.

    Without some background to buttress or disprove our suppositions... yes, it's a vague question, subject to a range of interpretations. And all unnecessary if the folks asking the questions would take the time to offer up some details of what they were about.

    I've been using epoxy since the Gougeon brothers first popularized it for marine applications back in the 70's. And I'm more than happy to offer advice. I'd just find it more thoughtful and incisive if the OP's would invest the time to make the questions as answerable as possible. Without having to go back and forth with a bunch of interrogation on their intent.

    Of course... I recognize that some of that is unavoidable. Often - if a person knew enough to realize what the germane factors were - he's know enough to not need to ask the question. But - esp. in this sort of venue (as opposed to a face-to-face, or phone conversation) I find it inefficient to ferret out the information. I'd appreciate it if they at least made an effort to save us from the necessity, and to garner themselves the most precise and cogent advice.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Great answers, thanks.Yes, no sag glue is what I am after. Gluing side panels to bottom and want the glue to stay in place and not sag or run. I have colloidal silica so that is what I will use unless someone comes up with something better. As for the rest, I think the response in #8 sums it up pretty well. Thanks Wi-Tom

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldad View Post
    Great answers, thanks.Yes, no sag glue is what I am after. Gluing side panels to bottom and want the glue to stay in place and not sag or run. I have colloidal silica so that is what I will use unless someone comes up with something better. As for the rest, I think the response in #8 sums it up pretty well. Thanks Wi-Tom
    Fumed silica is fine for your application. Wood flour, also. And others.

    And fotos? Did I mention fotos? Fotos are usually QUITE illuminating.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    I like pic too, bu in this case I am not there yet, asking the question before the need arises rather than waiting til the last minute. Big change for me.

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    For structural gluing, I'll often also toss in some fibers (milled cotton, linen or tiny chunks of cut glassfiber) to act as little re-rods and strengthen the epoxy. It can sometimes make the stuff a bit more difficult to spread evenly and it's a bear to sand if you have to, but it does reinforce the resin. I bought a bag of milled fibers from Gougeon about 25 years ago when laminating a new bottom for a Simmons skiff and still have some, so it goes a long way. Makes your resin look kind of like runny oatmeal.

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Fumed silica is fine for your application. Wood flour, also. And others.

    And fotos? Did I mention fotos? Fotos are usually QUITE illuminating.
    Thread drift: Dave, I just saw your SOF designs are featured in the current issue of Watercraft. Congratulations!

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Thread drift: Dave, I just saw your SOF designs are featured in the current issue of Watercraft. Congratulations!

    Tom
    Oooohhh... not me. You're mixing me up with the brilliant, handsome, and talented Dave Gentry. Haven't received a nicer compliment in weeks!! And, please, don't put my hobby-horse spurring down to his ledger sheet. He's far more soft-spoken, patient, and gentlemanly with his quirks.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldad View Post
    Great answers, thanks.Yes, no sag glue is what I am after. Gluing side panels to bottom and want the glue to stay in place and not sag or run. I have colloidal silica so that is what I will use unless someone comes up with something better. As for the rest, I think the response in #8 sums it up pretty well. Thanks Wi-Tom
    I almost always use colloidal (aka fumed silica, cabosil, aerosil).
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Milled cotton for me!

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    We want non sag for fairing as well.
    Non sag can be anything from 404 to 410. Big difference.
    But its not being used as a glue if it is for fairing. I agree with WI-Tom, the original question was short and to the point, plenty precise.

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    I was recently introduced to this product, found it was excellent for its non-sagging qualities.
    https://goindustrial.ca/index.php/en...-fibers-detail

    Jamie

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Orr View Post
    I was recently introduced to this product, found it was excellent for its non-sagging qualities.
    https://goindustrial.ca/index.php/en...-fibers-detail

    Jamie
    Why would one choose polyethylene??? Perhaps it doesn't sag, but why would a matrix of polyethylene be superior (stronger, hold together better) than silicas and other non plastic fillers??

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Orr View Post
    I was recently introduced to this product, found it was excellent for its non-sagging qualities.
    https://goindustrial.ca/index.php/en...-fibers-detail

    Jamie
    I've done a lot of my shopping at IPP over the years. Great store. So is this recommended for gluing or just fairing or both? Have you used any on your Chebacco or some other build, perhaps?
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    A nice alternative to the silica is Cell-o-fill by MAS. Cellulose based, doesn't billow, not as hazardous, easy to work with. Been using it a lot on several boats, very nice. Available at CLC.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Orr View Post
    I was recently introduced to this product, found it was excellent for its non-sagging qualities.
    https://goindustrial.ca/index.php/en...-fibers-detail

    Jamie
    Was it a blind date... or thru a mutual friend from bagpipe practice??

    OK... to be serious... tell us more, please.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    It might have some interesting low friction possibilities for coatings if enough was mixed in, though that same potential slipperiness might reduce its bonding abilities as glue. Some testing would be worth doing to see what actual effects it has.

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Thank you David G., you usually have said what I was thinking so I don't feel a need to add to the chatter. I am impressed that you take the time to try and answer what is an unanswerable question.

    What is the safest speed on the highway? With out knowing the road or the conditions or the vehicle, there is no answer.

    There is no single answer to what is the best for every application, only better choices for specific needs.

    Filler are used in epoxies to improve its performance in different applications such as fairing, bonding hardware, laminating timber, etc. With no context there is no answer.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    Why would one choose polyethylene??? Perhaps it doesn't sag, but why would a matrix of polyethylene be superior (stronger, hold together better) than silicas and other non plastic fillers??
    No idea of relative strengths, it only had to be strong enough. We were repairing rot in the cabin topsides, had to cut a corner back about six inches on both side and aft bulkhead then patch in new plywood, so it involved both gluing and fairing. I'd like to say a retired boatbuilder was helping me, but in reality he did 95% of the job. I think he let me pass him the odd tool..... He supplied the mini fibres, and after seeing the results I went right out and bought some for myself. I've used a lot of silica in the past and it always drooled to some extent, this didn't.

    Jamie

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    I'll toss in another colloidal silica. At least that's my default additive for gluing. Just joined & glued up some angelique with it & when I tried to break the joint, the wood split right near it.

    However, I do get that different jobs need different products.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Orr View Post
    No idea of relative strengths, it only had to be strong enough. We were repairing rot in the cabin topsides, had to cut a corner back about six inches on both side and aft bulkhead then patch in new plywood, so it involved both gluing and fairing. I'd like to say a retired boatbuilder was helping me, but in reality he did 95% of the job. I think he let me pass him the odd tool..... He supplied the mini fibres, and after seeing the results I went right out and bought some for myself. I've used a lot of silica in the past and it always drooled to some extent, this didn't.

    Jamie
    I was really flumoxed that the site you referenced specified "mini fibers" and then called out the material as "ground polyethylene fibers." I've used milled cotton fibers, and milled glass fibers, as well as colloidal silica and wood flour in epoxy, all with excellent results in gluing. I'm just having problems wrapping my head around what polyethylene fibers might look like, how they are produced, and how they might significantly differ from powdered or flaked polyethylene.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    A nice alternative to the silica is Cell-o-fill by MAS. Cellulose based, doesn't billow, not as hazardous
    I fail to see how Cell-o-fill can be less hazardous than the powdered silica I use - the MSDS for the powdered silica says "Engineering Controls:Ventilation, If ventilation is inadequate treat as nuisance dust (wear a painters dust mask), If over-exposed, get fresh air". Those are the same precautions for a fart.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    I was really flumoxed that the site you referenced specified "mini fibers" and then called out the material as "ground polyethylene fibers." I've used milled cotton fibers, and milled glass fibers, as well as colloidal silica and wood flour in epoxy, all with excellent results in gluing. I'm just having problems wrapping my head around what polyethylene fibers might look like, how they are produced, and how they might significantly differ from powdered or flaked polyethylene.
    They're white and fluffy, but don't float around in a draft the way silica does - less chance of breathing them, another advantage. I don't know anything about the product other than what I've already said, but I like how it works so I'll keep using it. I suggest addressing any questions to the folks on the website.

    Cheers,

    Jamie

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    For a structural no sag bond I say add fibers of your choice like cotton flox, PE, Kevlar fluff, milled glass, wood flour etc. until peanut butter consistency then silica until no sag. Prime with neat epoxy.

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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    I guess you already have your epoxy, but for bonding applications, I've come to like system 3's gel magic. It's already thickened when you mix it, 2:1. No milled cotton, no silica, nothing to add. We built the whole PC23 with S3 and liked it a lot. Also, no priming. I still like to keep a bit of west system around, for the small batch pump feature, but for the big bonding jobs, it's gel magic for me!

    Cricket

  34. #34

    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Is Russell Brown cool with his $5.99 ebook being freely available in the below link? Sadly it's the first hit if you search for the publication, with only the second result being the legitimate source:
    http://ptwatercraft.com/ptwatercraft/EPOXY_BASICS.html

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Or... you could keep the details to yourself, and just read up on your own, until you are satisfied about the answer --

    West System -- http://www.westsystem.com/the-gougeo...-construction/

    System 3 -- https://www.systemthree.com/pages/literature

    Russell Brown -- http://newcollege.net/wp-content/upl...ics_e-book.pdf

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Best additive for non sag epoxy glue??

    Quote Originally Posted by jim_cricket View Post
    I guess you already have your epoxy, but for bonding applications, I've come to like system 3's gel magic. It's already thickened when you mix it, 2:1. No milled cotton, no silica, nothing to add. We built the whole PC23 with S3 and liked it a lot. Also, no priming. I still like to keep a bit of west system around, for the small batch pump feature, but for the big bonding jobs, it's gel magic for me!

    Cricket
    I have used the West System Six10 which is supplied in a cartridge for a caulking gun, comes out as a gel and stays where it is put, even upside down, the drawback is it is more expensive.

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