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Thread: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Maybe the op is indeed a troll....

    But, for the record, I believe in the notion that public accommodation, as a law, means that service cannot be refused to ANYONE... unless, of course, a person is disruptive.

    The point, however, was well-made: if we do NOT have a public accommodation law, then Christian evangelists in coffee shops, as well as gay couples in bakeries, can be refused service. Imagine what sort of society we would have, if anyone can be refused, for any arbitrary reason.
    for any arbitrary reason
    would be unacceptable. However removing the ability to to manage disruptive or other behaviour that harms your business would be a tad totalitarian.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    ...what does the anti abortion literature have to do with the gay rantings?
    According to the article, according to the shop owner, the screed included the idea, in the printed matter, that homosexuality in society brings the abortion mentality; that 'gayness' breeds baby murderers. I think I'd be incensed, too.


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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Longino View Post
    Typical Anti-US thread by Rum!
    Why does Rum hate the US?
    How is this an anti-US thread?

    Where do I say anything against the USA or that I hate the USA?

    Why do you always resort to making these false accusations?


    BTW The philosopher Socrates said "when debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Because he wants to move to the US, but could not get in?
    Nope.

    Visit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0DGjXE_BQQ
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Headlines from the left:

    Gay Coffee Shop Owner Kicks out Anti-Abortion Activists, Video ...
    TheStranger.com-15 hours ago
    Belltown's Bedlam Coffee has become the latest Seattle business to get a bunch of conservatives' chastity belts in a knot. The drama started ...

    Gay coffee shop owner throws out Christian zealots whose leaflets ...
    PinkNews-22 hours ago


    Heroic Gay Coffee Shop Owner Kicks Out Anti-LGBTQ Group, Says ...
    Out Magazine-16 hours ago


    A gay coffee shop owner kicked out religious mouth-breathers ...
    LGBTQ Nation-Oct 9, 2017

    Headlines from the right:

    Christian Pro-Life Group Kicked Out of Seattle Coffee Shop by Gay ...
    Washington Free Beacon-21 hours ago


    VIDEO: Gay coffee shop owner kicks Christians out of his shop

    Conservative Review-21 hours ago
    When the group stopped in Bedlam Coffee for a drink and a rest, they ... Shouldn't the gay coffee shop owner be castigated in the media for ...

    VIDEO: Gay coffee shop owner kicks Christians out of his shop

    Conservative Review-21 hours ago
    When the group stopped in Bedlam Coffee for a drink and a rest, they ... Shouldn't the gay coffee shop owner be castigated in the media for ...

    VIDEO: Gay Coffee Shop Owner Shouts Profanities at Christian Pro ...

    Breitbart News-Oct 7, 2017
    The Washington Times reports that the group, called Abolish Human Abortion, decided to order drinks at Seattle's Bedlam Coffee after passing ...

    Gay coffee shop owner kicks Christians out of cafe, goes on vulgar ...
    TheBlaze.com-Oct 7, 2017








    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    This from the caption below the photo in the OP, bothers me. The photo shows the shop owner holding one of the asshole's messages, with the image of a bloody, aborted fetus.
    Did I read it wrong? The customer was posting them outside on the street. If he didn't post it on the shop owner's window or in his store, then was it the shop owner who brought it into the store?

    This whole refusal of service issue is a double-edged sword and it should have been predicted it would cut both ways.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    BTW do you support this coffee shop owner's actions?
    In this one case I support the owner, not because his methods or demeanor was correct, but because it was a case of turn about is fair play pushed off the edge.

    I don't believe in denial of service to anyone who is behaving reasonably. Folks were making a point and it went sideways.

    Been there done that.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by paulf View Post
    In this one case I support the owner, not because his methods or demeanor was correct, but because it was a case of turn about is fair play pushed off the edge.

    I don't believe in denial of service to anyone who is behaving reasonably. Folks were making a point and it went sideways.

    Been there done that.
    I think I have to agree with you. I sympathize, but I can't condone the shop owner's behavior unless the customer brought this behavior into the store.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Maybe the op is indeed a troll....



    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Maybe the op is indeed a troll....

    But, for the record, I believe in the notion that public accommodation, as a law, means that service cannot be refused to ANYONE... unless, of course, a person is disruptive.

    The point, however, was well-made: if we do NOT have a public accommodation law, then Christian evangelists in coffee shops, as well as gay couples in bakeries, can be refused service. Imagine what sort of society we would have, if anyone can be refused, for any arbitrary reason.
    Sounds like you disagree with the coffee shopkeeper's actions.

    From original OP quote
    The incident comes as the U.S. Supreme Court gears up to take the case of Jack Philliips, the Christian baker who was ordered by the the Colorado Civil Rights Commission to serve wedding cake to LGBT couples — or none at all.
    The high court agreed in June to hear the case this fall.
    Wonder what the decision will be.
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    According to the article, according to the shop owner, the screed included the idea, in the printed matter, that homosexuality in society brings the abortion mentality; that 'gayness' breeds baby murderers. I think I'd be incensed, too.
    Did it?

    Did they hand him the pamphlet?

    Did they go in just for a cup of coffee or only to distribute their pamphlets?
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    "Christian" advocates.
    Here we have today's "christians", all spun up about other peoples behavior.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    According to the article, according to the shop owner, the screed included the idea, in the printed matter, that homosexuality in society brings the abortion mentality; that 'gayness' breeds baby murderers. I think I'd be incensed, too.

    ahhh, didn't see that part. i get pro-life mentality, i get pro-choice mentality, but how do you draw a line between abortion and gays? someone has their wires crossed.

    still, i think as a private business owner, you should be able to deny service for whatever reason you want. when that hurts your business it's your own fault.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    I've been uncomfortable with this law from the beginning and I think I finally understand why.

    There is a fundamental difference between requiring that a person be allowed into a group like a club vs requiring that a service be provided to an individual. It's not always different. Doctors can not be allowed to refuse treatment, but if a plumber refuses service that just opens the market for another plumber. If a baker will not bake a cake for a gay wedding, then let it be known and I'll buy my bread and such from another baker. But a Jewish baker really should not be required to bake for a neo-Nazi party. The law is simply too broad.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    on further reading and I hope a better understanding of what happened... I'd have kicked them out too
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    on further reading and I hope a better understanding of what happened... I'd have kicked them out too
    Could you be specific? That is a genuine request.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Let us not forget, these guys were not refused because they were "christian activists" they were refused because they were simple a$$holes.
    “What, Me Worry?". -. A. E. Newman

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    Let us not forget, these guys were not refused because they were "christian activists" they were refused because they were simple a$$holes.
    Wow if people should be refused because they are simple a$$holes, then a lot of fast food places would have no customers and go out of business.

    What about the educated or gifted "a$$holes" ?
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    I think it is entirely correct to prohibit the denial of service on the basis of race, gender or sexual orientation. I also think it's entirely correct to allow shop owners to deny service to patrons on other grounds such as their behavior.

    What's so funny about peace love & understanding?

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianY View Post
    I think it is entirely correct to prohibit the denial of service on the basis of race, gender or sexual orientation. I also think it's entirely correct to allow shop owners to deny service to patrons on other grounds such as their behavior.
    Were these guys rude or violent?
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Were these guys rude or violent?
    I think that the word you want is "offensive" as in giving offence.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Sounds like you disagree with the coffee shopkeeper's actions.
    I believe the shopkeeper was engaging in an act of civil disobedience.... presuming, of course, that we DO have a 'public accommodation' law, something I believe in strongly.

    The key element of any act of civil disobedience, by the way, is the acknowledgement that the person who is being 'civilly disobedient' is willing to accept the consequences of their action. Therefore, if we do indeed have a law against discrimination by those who operate a public accommodation, then the shopkeeper is guilty, and should suffer the consequences (a fine or jail time?)

    AND, if this is true, then the baker who refuses the business of an LGBTQ couple, is ALSO guilty, and deserves the very same penalty.

    Do I disagree, in principle, with the shopkeeper's actions? Certainly.... just as I would disagree with the baker who refuses gay business.

    At the very same time, I will applaud the shopkeeper for being willing to accept the consequences of his act of civil disobedience (as long as he accepts the consequences, of course), in order to demonstrate an important issue.

    I STRONGLY disagree with ANY law that permits someone to base his discrimination on a 'deeply held religious belief'... because the Constitution does NOT differentiate by religion. ANY 'deeply held belief', whether it is based on religion, OR NOT, is the same thing.
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I think that the word you want is "offensive" as in giving offence.
    Did they give him a pamphlet?

    Did they force a pamphlet on him?

    How were they offensive, because they were pro-life?
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    I believe the shopkeeper was engaging in an act of civil disobedience.... presuming, of course, that we DO have a 'public accommodation' law, something I believe in strongly.

    The key element of any act of civil disobedience, by the way, is the acknowledgement that the person who is being 'civilly disobedient' is willing to accept the consequences of their action. Therefore, if we do indeed have a law against discrimination by those who operate a public accommodation, then the shopkeeper is guilty, and should suffer the consequences (a fine or jail time?)

    AND, if this is true, then the baker who refuses the business of an LGBTQ couple, is ALSO guilty, and deserves the very same penalty.

    Do I disagree, in principle, with the shopkeeper's actions? Certainly.... just as I would disagree with the baker who refuses gay business.

    At the very same time, I will applaud the shopkeeper for being willing to accept the consequences of his act of civil disobedience (as long as he accepts the consequences, of course), in order to demonstrate an important issue.

    I STRONGLY disagree with ANY law that permits someone to base his discrimination on a 'deeply held religious belief'... because the Constitution does NOT differentiate by religion. ANY 'deeply held belief', whether it is based on religion, OR NOT, is the same thing.
    How about looking after your business and your staffs livelihoods by removing something that may cause your customers to go elsewhere?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Did they give him a pamphlet?

    Did they force a pamphlet on him?

    How were they offensive, because they were pro-life?
    Clutching at straws Rummy, clutching at straws.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Clutching at straws Rummy, clutching at straws.
    Try not to deflect.

    Basic question. How were they offensive?
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Try not to deflect.

    Basic question. How were they offensive?
    Why not phone Mr. Borgman, who also said that anti-abortion imagery was hidden within his shop and ask him?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    How about looking after your business and your staffs livelihoods by removing something that may cause your customers to go elsewhere?
    Sure, it's a tough call.... but I don't think it's hard to differentiate between a patron whose behavior is ordinarily offensive to others, and one whose lifestyle or beliefs are only perceived as offensive because of prejudice.

    The baker who refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple wasn't rejecting the business because the business was a threat to the business itself..... he was doing so out of a personally held belief.

    The place where it becomes VERY slippery is the inclusion of the 'deeply held religious belief' criteria. Someone will have to explain to me what the difference is, between a 'deeply held religious belief', and any other belief which is also deeply held, but not based on any particular religion?

    If the baker can reject the gay couple's business, then why can't a racist reject the business of a black patron, on the basis of a 'deeply held belief'? Why do we provide special status to beliefs which are 'religious' in nature.... and exactly WHAT religions deserve this elevated status?

    For example, suppose a bakery operated by a Sunni Muslim decides that he will not serve a patron who is a Shia Muslim?

    Think about it...
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Does one have the right not to serve somebody because of their beliefs?
    It seems to me they weren't denied service because of their beliefs, they were denied service because of their actions.

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    I believe the shopkeeper was engaging in an act of civil disobedience....
    Probably, but that is not a defense. MLK did his time in Birmingham Jail for an act of civil disobedience. In fact, getting arrested is really the point.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Sure, it's a tough call.... but I don't think it's hard to differentiate between a patron whose behavior is ordinarily offensive to others, and one whose lifestyle or beliefs are only perceived as offensive because of prejudice.

    The baker who refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple wasn't rejecting the business because the business was a threat to the business itself..... he was doing so out of a personally held belief.

    The place where it becomes VERY slippery is the inclusion of the 'deeply held religious belief' criteria. Someone will have to explain to me what the difference is, between a 'deeply held religious belief', and any other belief which is also deeply held, but not based on any particular religion?

    If the baker can reject the gay couple's business, then why can't a racist reject the business of a black patron, on the basis of a 'deeply held belief'? Why do we provide special status to beliefs which are 'religious' in nature.... and exactly WHAT religions deserve this elevated status?

    For example, suppose a bakery operated by a Sunni Muslim decides that he will not serve a patron who is a Shia Muslim?

    Think about it...
    The legislators who make our laws already did. Ours may be setting higher standards than yours, but the legal reasoning is settled. Society holds that some beliefs should not be acted on, no matter how deeply held.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 defines public accommodations as a limited number of facilities which are open to the public. Examples include hotels, motels, restaurants, theaters, and all other public accommodations engaged in interstate commerce; exempted are private clubs without defining the term "private".

    Under United States federal law, public accommodations must be accessible to the handicapped and may not discriminate on the basis of "race, color, religion, or national origin."[1][2]

    Private clubs were specifically exempted under federal law[3] as well as religious organizations.[4] Title II's definition of public accommodation is limited to "any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests," and therefore is inapplicable to churches. Section 12187 of the ADA also exempts religious organizations from public accommodation laws,[5] but religious organizations are encouraged to comply.

    Various states in the United States, in a number of nonuniform laws, provide for nondiscrimination in public accommodation.
    Note that 'sexual orientation' is not included in the list of prohibited discriminations..... although some states do add that to their own laws.
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Sure, it's a tough call.... but I don't think it's hard to differentiate between a patron whose behavior is ordinarily offensive to others, and one whose lifestyle or beliefs are only perceived as offensive because of prejudice.

    The baker who refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple wasn't rejecting the business because the business was a threat to the business itself..... he was doing so out of a personally held belief.

    The place where it becomes VERY slippery is the inclusion of the 'deeply held religious belief' criteria. Someone will have to explain to me what the difference is, between a 'deeply held religious belief', and any other belief which is also deeply held, but not based on any particular religion?

    If the baker can reject the gay couple's business, then why can't a racist reject the business of a black patron, on the basis of a 'deeply held belief'? Why do we provide special status to beliefs which are 'religious' in nature.... and exactly WHAT religions deserve this elevated status?

    For example, suppose a bakery operated by a Sunni Muslim decides that he will not serve a patron who is a Shia Muslim?

    Think about it...

    why not allow a private business owner deny anyone for any reason? as long as we're not talking about the fire dept, the police dept, medical care, or any other essential service. coffee shops and bakeries? who cares. if they want to run off 1/3 to 2/3 of their potential customer base b/c they're bigoted, then let them and watch them go out of business.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Why not phone Mr. Borgman, who also said that anti-abortion imagery was hidden within his shop and ask him?
    This is an issue that I'd like to understand better. Where was it hidden? In a briefcase, or out for public view and distribution. I don't see how or why the customers could have hidden it very well.

    I do know one thing: If the owner of a coffee shop says the following to me or anyone else in his store I will be buying my coffee elsewhere if just for sanitary reasons.

    “If I go get my boyfriend and f- him in the a— right here you’re going to tolerate that?” Mr. Borgman asked.
    “That would be your choice,” Mr. Sutherland said, the conservative website Red State reported Friday.
    “Are you going to tolerate it? Answer my f-ing question! No, you’re going to sit right here and f-ing watch it! […] Well then I don’t have to f-ing tolerate this! Leave! All of you. Tell all your f-ing friends, don’t f-ing come here.”

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    why not allow a private business owner deny anyone for any reason?
    On the base of race, for example? You're hoping for the return of Jim Crow laws? Maybe separate water fountains for blacks and whites?

    Sorry, but it sounds like you're caught in a 1950's time warp... we long ago decided that discrimination in public accommodations was unconstitutional. In the 1964 Civil Rights Act.... or maybe you don't believe in Civil Rights....
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    why not allow a private business owner deny anyone for any reason?
    Because when businesses owned by the advantaged exclude the disadvantaged, the disadvantaged become second-class citizens, with second-class lives and second-class opportunities. Supposedly, one of the aims of your constitution is preventing that from happening.

    What are you doing about it?




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