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Thread: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

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    Question Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    So how come bakers refusing gays get sued/prosecuted but this gay chap doesn't for refusing Christians?

    Have you seen/heard the video of the exchange?

    Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’



    Members of Bedlam coffee shop in Seattle, Washington, kick out Christian customers after realizing they were posting graphic pro-life messages within the community prior to entering the establishment. Video of the encounter was published to the Abolish Human Abortion Facebook ... more >


    By Douglas Ernst - The Washington Times - Friday, October 6, 2017
    A Christian pro-life group that was recently ejected from a Seattle coffee shop over its local activism is attracting hundreds of thousands of Facebook views after footage of the encounter was posted online.
    Members of Abolish Human Abortion recently decided to order drinks in Seattle’s Bedlam coffee shop after posting and distributing pro-life pamphlets in the local community. Activists who joined Caleb Head and Caytie Davis on Oct. 1 were soon berated and told the leave when they were identified.
    “I’m gay. You have to leave,” owner Ben Borgman said in the video.

    “Are you denying us service?” Mr. Davis asked.
    “I am. Yeah,” Mr. Borgman replied.
    The confrontation about tolerance then escalated when activist Jonathan Sutherland was asked if he would watch a sex act.
    “If I go get my boyfriend and f- him in the a— right here you’re going to tolerate that?” Mr. Borgman asked.
    “That would be your choice,” Mr. Sutherland said, the conservative website Red State reported Friday.
    “Are you going to tolerate it? Answer my f-ing question! No, you’re going to sit right here and f-ing watch it! […] Well then I don’t have to f-ing tolerate this! Leave! All of you. Tell all your f-ing friends, don’t f-ing come here.”
    A request by the activists to turn to Jesus was met with the response, “Yeah, I like a—. I’m not going to be saved by anything. I’d f- Christ in the a—. OK? He’s hot.”
    The incident comes as the U.S. Supreme Court gears up to take the case of Jack Philliips, the Christian baker who was ordered by the the Colorado Civil Rights Commission to serve wedding cake to LGBT couples — or none at all.
    The high court agreed in June to hear the case this fall.
    The Bedlam coffee shop issued responses on Oct. 2 and Oct. 4 asking viewers to consider another side of the story.
    “In the end, it’s all about context,” the owner wrote. “Everything is context. Out of context a comment can serve any argument. Take for example the phrase ‘I will bring my boyfriend out here and f- him in the a—.’ out of context it could mean a slew of things. It’s delivery in this case was meant to shock and repulse the audience. Out of context it could be labeled a perversion, or a kink depending how you personally couch the subject. In context it was a response, a response to being shocked and repulsed. A revenge you could even call it, a weakness demonstrated in the typical, they hurt me, I will hurt them fashion.”
    The 52-year-old owner said that his full exchange with the activists included one of the activists denying that graphic anti-abortion materials were their own.
    Mr. Borgman also said that anti-abortion imagery was hidden within his shop.

    “They were ready with that camera,” the owner wrote. “I was baptized Catholic, Roman Catholic actually, I’ve been to a few bible studies, read the entire book, more than once. To my understanding, and to speak in the religious vernacular; these people are working for Satan. The great trickster has deluded them into believing that hate is love, that rage is peace, and that lies are truth. The God I knew, the Jesus I was taught about would absolutely never ever print a poster with a hideous dead baby representation at ‘what was clearly meant to insinuate’ at the hands of gays … suffice to the say the poster was gross, and the text on the back? Holy cow, whoever wrote that is in a lot of pain. I spoke to them in their own language.”
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Rum Pirate, why such a weak troll? How about something from your island that gets your goat?

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Rum Pirate, why such a weak troll? How about something from your island that gets your goat?
    Not a troll but a genuine question.

    BTW do you support this coffee shop owner?

    IIRC Big number of responses and outrage the the baker declined to bake for 'gay' couple.

    When I post things from my island it gets few if any responses. excluding hurricanes and pools and a pic of a girlfriend standing on KATE's boom.
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Not a troll but a genuine question.

    BTW do you support this coffee shop owner?

    IIRC Big number of responses and outrage the the baker declined to bake for 'gay' couple.

    When I post things from my island it gets few if any responses. excluding hurricanes and pools and a pic of a girlfriend standing on KATE's boom.
    Oh dear, you feel neglected. I thought your pool pics were much appreciated and enjoyed. Is there an open gay community on yr island?

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Oh dear, you feel neglected. I thought your pool pics were much appreciated and enjoyed. Is there an open gay community on yr island?
    Not neglected. Yes that is why I specifically excluded them. and the other two topics.

    I consider the OP topic a valid topic for discussion.

    As to your last query. Apparently there are openly gay people on this island. EG One chap I have known for decades has just 'come out of the closet'. No, they are not stoned (like some religion would do).

    BTW FYI
    Male on male homosexuality is illegal in St. Kitts and Nevis. Section 56 and 57 of the "Offences Against the Person Act" criminalises male on male same-sex sexual activity. Section 56 of the "Offences Against the Person Act": "The abominable crime of buggery" – up to 10 years imprisonment, with or without hard labour.LGBT rights in Saint Kitts and Nevis - Wikipedia


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Saint_Kitts_and_Nevis
    Last edited by Rum_Pirate; 10-09-2017 at 11:51 PM.
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    BTW do you support this coffee shop owner's actions?
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    100% Support the shop owner. Worked for Kim Davis. She hasn't been prosecuted, and she was acting as an agent of the State Government.
    It's a two way st. And hopefully there will be more of it.

    As per AG Sessions: "Religious liberty is not merely a right to personal religious beliefs or even to worship in a sacred place," Sessions wrote. "Except in the narrowest of circumstances, no one should be forced to choose between living out his or her faith and complying with the law. Therefore, to the greatest extent practicable and permitted by law, religious observance should be reasonably accommodated in all government activity, including employment, contracting and programming."

    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/1...ections-243536

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    BTW do you support this coffee shop owner's actions?
    Support? I don't care. Do you care that being queer is illegal where you live? Is a lesbian relation illegal in St Kitts?

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    The OP is a bit hard to read and vague in a few places, but it does seem to have a point. What goes around comes around and there is a difference between what a person was doing before coming into the shop and what the do in the shop.

    I have to say that the shop owner behaved badly.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Support? I don't care. Do you care that being queer is illegal where you live? Is a lesbian relation illegal in St Kitts?
    well, lee, what DO you care about as you are obviously trying to deflect the point in the op?
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    well, lee, what DO you care about as you are obviously trying to deflect the point in the op?
    RP has no point. He's a lazy troll.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    The supposed "Christian" group consists of about 6 people who think that Westboro Baptist tactics are what Jesus would use. Obnoxious jerks who enter a coffee shop, camera rolling in an attempt to provoke a scene. Heavily covered by Washington Times, Breitbart, and others of that ilk. They were kicked out because of the way they'd been acting out on the sidewalk, harassing passersby and shoving Jesus down their throats.
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    OK so you don't care. The law has not been enforced for quite some time (decades?). Apparently "Female to female sexual relationships are legal".


    See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_r...itts_and_Nevis
    So RP, are you ok with homosexuality being illegal?

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    A foolish thing for him to do.

    What he should have done was surreptitiously price gouged them. ;-)
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    So deliberate provocation get's the desired reaction? Who'd a thunk it?

    But no one got shot or beat up, that's a plus these days.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    The supposed "Christian" group consists of about 6 people who think that Westboro Baptist tactics are what Jesus would use. Obnoxious jerks who enter a coffee shop, camera rolling in an attempt to provoke a scene. Heavily covered by Washington Times, Breitbart, and others of that ilk. They were kicked out because of the way they'd been acting out on the sidewalk, harassing passersby and shoving Jesus down their throats.
    In which case they were harming the coffee shops business by discouraging customers out for a quiet coffee. Refuse their custom on sound business reasons, I would have expected the same from any other business on that street.
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Wonder if they'd serve antifa? Harvey Weinstein?
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    The shop owner behaved badly, motivated by personal outrage and his own particular slant. The only thing I think he should have done differently was use polite language and stay on topic. He was not just incensed that the twisted-born-agains were obnoxiously proseltyzing, and committing an embarrassingly lame gotcha, in a privately owned public establishment.

    As an owner of a privately owned public establishment he has a right to refuse service, for a variety of reasons. The notion that, according to the shop owner, the anti-abortion posters and the graphics were also an attack on homosexuality in general and him in particular. Upset was appropriate. The shock value, hate-back attack was bad. The so-called Christian bushwhackers got what they deserved, otherwise.

    Not that it matters to the principles, or the principals, but I am mildly curious as to whether the shop was crowded or not, what proportion of the crowd were regular customers, and what proportion happened to be gay or how many tables were occupied by evangelicals. Was the crowd interested, embarrassed, put off, agitated, amused, evenly divided or united in civic outrage? How did anyone else in the joint feel or what did any else do or say in the moment? Did a table of nice Lutherans leave quietly? Was the street outside full of rabble and riot? Was it a gay pride day or in a rainbow neighborhood? The gutter mouth owner was right about context.


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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    The shop owner behaved badly, motivated by personal outrage and his own particular slant. The only thing I think he should have done differently was use polite language and stay on topic. He was not just incensed that the twisted-born-agains were obnoxiously proseltyzing, and committing an embarrassingly lame gotcha, in a privately owned public establishment.

    As an owner of a privately owned public establishment he has a right to refuse service, for a variety of reasons. The notion that, according to the shop owner, the anti-abortion posters and the graphics were also an attack on homosexuality in general and him in particular. Upset was appropriate. The shock value, hate-back attack was bad. The so-called Christian bushwhackers got what they deserved, otherwise.

    Not that it matters to the principles, or the principals, but I am mildly curious as to whether the shop was crowded or not, what proportion of the crowd were regular customers, and what proportion happened to be gay or how many tables were occupied by evangelicals. Was the crowd interested, embarrassed, put off, agitated, amused, evenly divided or united in civic outrage? How did anyone else in the joint feel or what did any else do or say in the moment? Did a table of nice Lutherans leave quietly? Was the street outside full of rabble and riot? Was it a gay pride day or in a rainbow neighborhood? The gutter mouth owner was right about context.
    Dude, it was Seattle.
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    This from the caption below the photo in the OP,
    ...posting graphic pro-life messages...
    bothers me. The photo shows the shop owner holding one of the asshole's messages, with the image of a bloody, aborted fetus. That isn't a pro-life graphic. It is a hate-group lie graphic.

    The shop owner holding the folded paper with the blood red ink looks a lot like Billy Bob Thornton. Makes it easier to imagine the 'f*** in the a**' tirade.


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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Dude, it was Seattle.
    There's that.


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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    If a LGBTI person was refused a wedding cake by a baker on the basis of the fact the cake was for an LGBTI wedding, that person would probably be angry, and more than likely take their business elsewhere, leaving the bigoted homophobic baker to stew in their own juice and lose more business and money.

    This group of anti-abortion homophobic bigots thought it'd be a great idea to disrupt a private business with their brand of hate. If the shop had have been mine, they would have received more than the verbal lashing they were given. My levels of tolerance for hateful intolerance have evaporated.
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    I'm actually beginning to lean libertarian on these sort of things. If I run a private business, and don't want to offer my services to whomever, for whatever reason, so what? Let the market decide.

    Someone will doubtless bring up the Jim Crow south with its segregated lunch counters and washrooms, etc. But is that really what is going on here, or in the case of the devout Christian baker refusing to make a cake for a homosexual couple? Jim Crow was state sanctioned discrimination, whereas this is...well, just what is it?

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Typical Anti-US thread by Rum!
    Why does Rum hate the US?

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Longino View Post
    Typical Anti-US thread by Rum!
    Why does Rum hate the US?
    Because he wants to move to the US, but could not get in?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    If a LGBTI person was refused a wedding cake by a baker on the basis of the fact the cake was for an LGBTI wedding, that person would probably be angry, and more than likely take their business elsewhere, leaving the bigoted homophobic baker to stew in their own juice and lose more business and money.

    This group of anti-abortion homophobic bigots thought it'd be a great idea to disrupt a private business with their brand of hate. If the shop had have been mine, they would have received more than the verbal lashing they were given. My levels of tolerance for hateful intolerance have evaporated.
    You're scarin people. Hehe
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    On that basis do you support the Baker that declined to be forced to make a 'gay cake'?
    If a cake can be made gay, what chance do the rest of us have???!!!

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Maybe the op is indeed a troll....

    But, for the record, I believe in the notion that public accommodation, as a law, means that service cannot be refused to ANYONE... unless, of course, a person is disruptive.

    The point, however, was well-made: if we do NOT have a public accommodation law, then Christian evangelists in coffee shops, as well as gay couples in bakeries, can be refused service. Imagine what sort of society we would have, if anyone can be refused, for any arbitrary reason.
    "Fact is that which enough people believe. Truth is determined by how fervently they believe it."
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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    I'm going to stop by Bedlam this morning to spend a few dollars. Great coffee shop.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    i think a shop owner should be able to deny service to anyone. the gay cake baker and this guy. was the guy over the top? sure. but that's his deal. question though, what does the anti abortion literature have to do with the gay rantings?

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Maybe the op is indeed a troll....

    But, for the record, I believe in the notion that public accommodation, as a law, means that service cannot be refused to ANYONE... unless, of course, a person is disruptive.

    The point, however, was well-made: if we do NOT have a public accommodation law, then Christian evangelists in coffee shops, as well as gay couples in bakeries, can be refused service. Imagine what sort of society we would have, if anyone can be refused, for any arbitrary reason.
    for any arbitrary reason
    would be unacceptable. However removing the ability to to manage disruptive or other behaviour that harms your business would be a tad totalitarian.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    ...what does the anti abortion literature have to do with the gay rantings?
    According to the article, according to the shop owner, the screed included the idea, in the printed matter, that homosexuality in society brings the abortion mentality; that 'gayness' breeds baby murderers. I think I'd be incensed, too.


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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Headlines from the left:

    Gay Coffee Shop Owner Kicks out Anti-Abortion Activists, Video ...
    TheStranger.com-15 hours ago
    Belltown's Bedlam Coffee has become the latest Seattle business to get a bunch of conservatives' chastity belts in a knot. The drama started ...

    Gay coffee shop owner throws out Christian zealots whose leaflets ...
    PinkNews-22 hours ago


    Heroic Gay Coffee Shop Owner Kicks Out Anti-LGBTQ Group, Says ...
    Out Magazine-16 hours ago


    A gay coffee shop owner kicked out religious mouth-breathers ...
    LGBTQ Nation-Oct 9, 2017

    Headlines from the right:

    Christian Pro-Life Group Kicked Out of Seattle Coffee Shop by Gay ...
    Washington Free Beacon-21 hours ago


    VIDEO: Gay coffee shop owner kicks Christians out of his shop

    Conservative Review-21 hours ago
    When the group stopped in Bedlam Coffee for a drink and a rest, they ... Shouldn't the gay coffee shop owner be castigated in the media for ...

    VIDEO: Gay coffee shop owner kicks Christians out of his shop

    Conservative Review-21 hours ago
    When the group stopped in Bedlam Coffee for a drink and a rest, they ... Shouldn't the gay coffee shop owner be castigated in the media for ...

    VIDEO: Gay Coffee Shop Owner Shouts Profanities at Christian Pro ...

    Breitbart News-Oct 7, 2017
    The Washington Times reports that the group, called Abolish Human Abortion, decided to order drinks at Seattle's Bedlam Coffee after passing ...

    Gay coffee shop owner kicks Christians out of cafe, goes on vulgar ...
    TheBlaze.com-Oct 7, 2017








    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    This from the caption below the photo in the OP, bothers me. The photo shows the shop owner holding one of the asshole's messages, with the image of a bloody, aborted fetus.
    Did I read it wrong? The customer was posting them outside on the street. If he didn't post it on the shop owner's window or in his store, then was it the shop owner who brought it into the store?

    This whole refusal of service issue is a double-edged sword and it should have been predicted it would cut both ways.

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    Default Re: Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    BTW do you support this coffee shop owner's actions?
    In this one case I support the owner, not because his methods or demeanor was correct, but because it was a case of turn about is fair play pushed off the edge.

    I don't believe in denial of service to anyone who is behaving reasonably. Folks were making a point and it went sideways.

    Been there done that.
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